There's dirt in that there dirt - living off the land on Mars.

[Plusck]

9 hours ago, GregA said:

Only correlation is needed for my argument to be valid...  By the way, it is not just emotional issues that plague vegetarians.  They also consume more medicines, they get more non-colorectal cancers.  They have a significant increase in cataracts.  They are more susceptible to Osteoporosis.  Vegetarians have significantly more health issues in other areas as well, I am just listing the ones that will be particularly troubling on mars.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088278.PDF

Finally no, there is at least one incident of a vegetarian becoming psychotic, because of their diet.  That is not offensive, that is just stating facts, and it is totally on topic if you want to start a vegetarian colony on Mars...  Because it matters, a psychotic person is a risk to the whole colony.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19892219

 

That first study is a joke. For example, they found that vegetarians had a higher incidence of "vascular risk" than people with a meat-rich diet. They also specify that they did not know why people chose a vegetarian diet. So, for example, someone who had an allergy or chronic health problem (diabetes, heart disease, high cholestrol, Crohn's disease, etc.) and who then opted for a vegetarian diet in an effort to control the symptoms, would not be screened out of the study and would therefore inflate the negative aspects of vegetarianism despite the fact that they chose not to eat meat precisely because they considered it to be detrimental to their health.

The fact that the study's authors obviously have an axe to grind can be seen in their choice of wording. They say "vegetarians... require more medical treatment" but that is false: vegetarians report going to the doctor more often, but that does not equate to "requiring".

Finally, a lot of the data simply doesn't make sense. Taking osteoporosis as an example: If you eat a "rich in meat" diet you have a much greater risk of osteoporosis (+60%) compared to a "less rich in meat" diet... but that risk goes up again if you eat a vegetable-rich diet and again if "vegetarian". It doesn't make any sense, given that hugely subjective distinction in meat quantity, but it's no less statistically significant than the huge increase in the risk of cancer (+175%!) between people who eat "less rich in meat" and "a little meat".

As for the second paper - vitamin B12 deficiency is a known problem. I suspect the planners of a mission to Mars would also know about the risks of various vitamin/trace element deficiencies.

[GregA]

2 hours ago, Plusck said:

That first study is a joke. For example, they found that vegetarians had a higher incidence of "vascular risk" than people with a meat-rich diet. They also specify that they did not know why people chose a vegetarian diet. So, for example, someone who had an allergy or chronic health problem (diabetes, heart disease, high cholestrol, Crohn's disease, etc.) and who then opted for a vegetarian diet in an effort to control the symptoms, would not be screened out of the study and would therefore inflate the negative aspects of vegetarianism despite the fact that they chose not to eat meat precisely because they considered it to be detrimental to their health.

The fact that the study's authors obviously have an axe to grind can be seen in their choice of wording. They say "vegetarians... require more medical treatment" but that is false: vegetarians report going to the doctor more often, but that does not equate to "requiring".

Finally, a lot of the data simply doesn't make sense. Taking osteoporosis as an example: If you eat a "rich in meat" diet you have a much greater risk of osteoporosis (+60%) compared to a "less rich in meat" diet... but that risk goes up again if you eat a vegetable-rich diet and again if "vegetarian". It doesn't make any sense, given that hugely subjective distinction in meat quantity, but it's no less statistically significant than the huge increase in the risk of cancer (+175%!) between people who eat "less rich in meat" and "a little meat".

As for the second paper - vitamin B12 deficiency is a known problem. I suspect the planners of a mission to Mars would also know about the risks of various vitamin/trace element deficiencies.

Do you realize that you agree with me?   That we only differ in degree?

You want to take animals, grind them up into a paste, and make the animal remains into a little tablet, and name the tablet B12.  Finally ship the tablets of animal remains from Earth to the Mars colony.

Where as I say, we find species of fish that can survive being frozen for a year or more, Build fish tanks on Mars, and have our own supply of yummy meat products on Mars.

Because we both agree that vegetarians are a figment of less sophisticated peoples imagination.  They are like unicorns in that they don't exist.  Because if humans don't eat at least 1 micro gram of delicious meat each and every day of their life, they will go crazy and eventually die.  

[todofwar]

13 minutes ago, GregA said:

Do you realize that you agree with me?   That we only differ in degree?

You want to take animals, grind them up into a paste, and make the animal remains into a little tablet, and name the tablet B12.  Finally ship the tablets of animal remains from Earth to the Mars colony.

Where as I say, we find species of fish that can survive being frozen for a year or more, Build fish tanks on Mars, and have our own supply of yummy meat products on Mars.

Because we both agree that vegetarians are a figment of less sophisticated peoples imagination.  They are like unicorns in that they don't exist.  Because if humans don't eat at least 1 micro gram of delicious meat each and every day of their life, they will go crazy and eventually die.  

I think you're confusing vegan with vegetarian. B12 isn't just in meat, plenty of animal products like eggs and milk have it too. 

[GregA]

10 minutes ago, todofwar said:

I think you're confusing vegan with vegetarian. B12 isn't just in meat, plenty of animal products like eggs and milk have it too. 

Yes eggs and milk contain B12, but they don't have enough.  B12 supplements are made from meat.

[todofwar]

1 minute ago, GregA said:

Yes eggs and milk contain B12, but they don't have enough.  B12 supplements are made from meat.

Or from gmo bacteria (which is cheating in a way since people argue were not supposed to eat meat and turn around and rely on modern technology to get by without it) but for a Mars colony that's probably the most effective solution. 

[Plusck]

 

4 hours ago, GregA said:

Do you realize that you agree with me?   That we only differ in degree?

You want to take animals, grind them up into a paste, and make the animal remains into a little tablet, and name the tablet B12.  Finally ship the tablets of animal remains from Earth to the Mars colony.

Where as I say, we find species of fish that can survive being frozen for a year or more, Build fish tanks on Mars, and have our own supply of yummy meat products on Mars.

Because we both agree that vegetarians are a figment of less sophisticated peoples imagination.  They are like unicorns in that they don't exist.  Because if humans don't eat at least 1 micro gram of delicious meat each and every day of their life, they will go crazy and eventually die.  

OK, cool.

Still, I didn't suggest any of that, or argue against taking fish. But grinding up animals sounds like a simple, weight-effective and waste-effectve solution, so I'm not against it on principle.   

3 hours ago, GregA said:

Yes eggs and milk contain B12, but they don't have enough.  B12 supplements are made from meat.

30% of Indians are ovo- and/or lacto-vegetarian (or whatever you call it). While I'm sure that the number who never eat fish, chicken or other meat, and never take B12 supplements, is certainly less than that, it is stretching it a bit to say they are all either self-deluding carnivores or mad, or both...

 

Anyway, B12 is just one of the obvious problems, since we humans haven't developed the right gut bacteria to do without it. Maybe improving our guts would be a more effective long-term solution to the problem of space travel. 

And there might be many other things that we don't know we need, simply because nobody has ever been in a position to be without them for any significant period of time. The ISS and its predecessors come close, but imperfectly: even the ISS mixes its atmosphere with sea-level bits of pollen, dust and who knows what other bugs and mites every time it gets resupplied. What's the longest time anyone has been in a completely isolated system?

[todofwar]

26 minutes ago, Plusck said:

 

OK, cool.

Still, I didn't suggest any of that, or argue against taking fish. But grinding up animals sounds like a simple, weight-effective and waste-effectve solution, so I'm not against it on principle.   

30% of Indians are ovo- and/or lacto-vegetarian (or whatever you call it). While I'm sure that the number who never eat fish, chicken or other meat, and never take B12 supplements, is certainly less than that, it is stretching it a bit to say they are all either self-deluding carnivores or mad, or both...

 

Anyway, B12 is just one of the obvious problems, since we humans haven't developed the right gut bacteria to do without it. Maybe improving our guts would be a more effective long-term solution to the problem of space travel. 

And there might be many other things that we don't know we need, simply because nobody has ever been in a position to be without them for any significant period of time. The ISS and its predecessors come close, but imperfectly: even the ISS mixes its atmosphere with sea-level bits of pollen, dust and who knows what other bugs and mites every time it gets resupplied. What's the longest time anyone has been in a completely isolated system?

My favorite example of that is the rise of autoimmune disease with the loss of nematode (small worms) infections. We seem to have evolved to deal with certain things, and those adaptations can be detrimental if not working on the desired targets. 

I think the idea of modifying the bacteria in our gut is a great idea, who knows how many vitamins can be rendered obsolete that way. 

[kerbiloid]

Btw, this lack of B12 in the vegetarian diet, prooves that: is it healthy or not — but anyway it cannot be natural. Otherwise we wouldn't need that B12 excess.

Stupid insectivorous lemurs were suffering of starvation and gorged anything more or less alike an insect, including buttons and fruits.
The bigger was lemur — the more often it ate a fruit instead of a larva.
The biggest lemurs became monkeys.

Monkeys were staying omnivorous in spirit, but mostly herbivorous in diet.
Omni/herbivorous monkeys were suffering of starvation and gorged anything more or less alike a fruit, including larva and other monkeys.

Humans are post-monkeys which appeared enough smart to gather enough meat in addition to fruits.
They need fifty:fifty.

 

15 hours ago, GregA said:

27 colonists. 73 more left.

[sjwt]

Thread closed at OP's request.