Photosensitive seizure triggers?

[pandaman]

Whilst is is now 'common knowledge' that digital screens and video games can induce seizures in some individuals, and those individuals can, and should, take responsibility for their own wellbeing by avoiding or reducing the stimuli that can cause them wherever possible. 

However, in the case of KSP for example, the risk can be increased when the player performs certain actions (as described by the OP).  By simply adding a warning about those particular instances, where possible and known, then those at a lower risk level or that manage their usage to reduce the risk are less likely to be caught out by unexpected events simply because they have advance information of specific 'higher risk' situations.  That, to me, is responsible behaviour on the part of the developers.

A simple addition to the standard warnings about using screens like - 'Please be aware that using higher time warp speeds can increase screen flickering...'  could help enormously. 

 

[DoctorDavinci]

8 hours ago, pandaman said:

Whilst is is now 'common knowledge' that digital screens and video games can induce seizures in some individuals, and those individuals can, and should, take responsibility for their own wellbeing by avoiding or reducing the stimuli that can cause them wherever possible. 

However, in the case of KSP for example, the risk can be increased when the player performs certain actions (as described by the OP).  By simply adding a warning about those particular instances, where possible and known, then those at a lower risk level or that manage their usage to reduce the risk are less likely to be caught out by unexpected events simply because they have advance information of specific 'higher risk' situations.  That, to me, is responsible behaviour on the part of the developers.

A simple addition to the standard warnings about using screens like - 'Please be aware that using higher time warp speeds can increase screen flickering...'  could help enormously. 

 

Yup ... gotta have that 'Caution, coffee is hot' label so that people are aware that their hot coffee is indeed hot

Not to mention that if the coffee isn't hot then the SJW's have another thing to defend the general public against

And no, it's not as simple as adding a warning since the whole issue could be resolved if people would take responsibility for their situation instead of blaming others for them not paying attention ... If you got epilepsy, I'm really sorry to hear that but you shouldn't place the burden on others to manage your medical issue as it is yours, not theirs

I was in an electric wheelchair for over 2 years, learned to walk again and generally took care of myself ... did I complain to stores that they need to put a sign up saying that if your in a wheelchair that you may have difficulty moving your chair inside said store because of the size of it? ... I already knew I was in a wheelchair so I didn't need the store to tell me that ... same goes for any malady, it is the responsibility of the person with the affliction to manage their affliction ... Don't impose your situation on others all in the name of social justice, it's demeaning

 

 

 

[pandaman]

@DoctorDavinci,

I don't disagree with you there, we all need to take responsibility for our own actions and health, and the current 'blame culture' makes everything a lot more difficult.  And there is a danger of overdoing the warnings too so they just get ignored anyway.

But a bit more information as to when an extra risk may occur may help those at risk to avoid the situation, in the same way we get a 'this report contains flashing images' warning on the news.

[Greenfire32]

20 hours ago, eloquentJane said:

By saying that people who are at risk of seizures should not be able to use technology, you are saying that they should be denied access to almost all modern forms of entertainment (and in fact, also denied access to almost all modern forms of communication - a necessity in life).

Woah woah woah. That is NOT what I said.

Not even close.

At no point did I say those who suffer from chronic photosensitive seizures should be barred from technology that is likely to cause said seizures.....................What I said was:

21 hours ago, Greenfire32 said:

I'm not against a warning, but don't be stupid. If playing games might cause you to seize and die...then don't play games....

Basically if doing a thing has a 70% chance of killing you, don't do that thing. It's the same reason why I have to tell doctors that I'm deathly allergic to any medication that is sulfa-based. If they give me that, I WILL die. It is my personal responsibility to take my own situation into account and act accordingly so that my personal handicaps don't make my life worse or even kill me. But that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to take any sort of medication at all.

So one more time: I'm not against Squad putting a disclaimer in, because in all honesty it's not that bad of an idea and it's not going to take any significant talent away from the continued development of KSP. Go for it.

BUT

If playing video games has a high chance of causing you to seize and suffer brain damage, maybe stay away from video games.

[DoctorDavinci]

59 minutes ago, pandaman said:

@DoctorDavinci,

I don't disagree with you there, we all need to take responsibility for our own actions and health, and the current 'blame culture' makes everything a lot more difficult.  And there is a danger of overdoing the warnings too so they just get ignored anyway.

But a bit more information as to when an extra risk may occur may help those at risk to avoid the situation, in the same way we get a 'this report contains flashing images' warning on the news.

Those at risk should know they are at risk and if they don't then they haven't taken responsibility for their affliction (or they haven't been diagnosed, which is unlikely in this case, or their doctor is doing a horrible job of informing them) which is not anyone's responsibility but the doctor and the patient (and perhaps a caretaker if the person in question is not able to care for themselves)

And on the subject of what the news on tv does, they have to adhere to broadcast standards due to the fact that news stations are required to publicly broadcast (both in Canada and the USA) on open airwaves that anyone can access with a tv, an Over The Air digital receiver and some electricity to power it which relegates them to being required to make people aware that what they are about to see may cause seizures if it is so

Now that make sense as anyone can wander onto a channel whilst using an OTA system and not be aware of what is upcoming in the broadcast where as, in the case of video games, they already have a good idea of what is about to occur and should be aware that it may affect them in an unpleasant way (in this case, meaning triggering their epilepsy)

Edited October 28, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[MaxPeck]

Notions of personal responsibility aside, you really need to look at this from a realistic standpoint.  You need to view this through the lens of potential liability and ethical responsibility.

My undergraduate degree was focused on technical and business writing.  The generally accepted best practice for hazard and warning labels is where an average person could reasonably be harmed by the failure to make them aware of the potential for injury.  Average.  Reasonable.  This is why you see warnings not to take a stroller or a wheelchair on an escalator, but not say, a hospital gurney or a motorcycle.  This is why seemingly ridiculous things like "coffee may be hot" are actually not unreasonable from a liability standpoint - an average person could, (and did) injure themselves with coffee.  All of the elements in that case are present in a reasonable situation - the average person will probably buy coffee, and may or may not know if it is hot enough to cause injury before trying to open the cup or drink it.  It seems stupid, but "hot coffee" is subjective, and what's hot to me may not be to someone else, or could potentially scald someone.  Having said that, there is no ethical requirement to think of every outlying possibility for injury, especially in such a specific situation (doing one specific thing in a game could cause problems in a very very small number of people).  If manufacturers actually did this, created warning labels for every conceivable danger, your products would be covered with them and would come with two 4-inch think safety supplements containing more, and the lawyers would force them to do it.  You would also become blind to the warnings and ignore them anyway, because you become cognitively saturated by them.  

So, no.  There is no ethical duty to provide this warning.  Let's not start going down the warn-everyone-of-everything path.

[Rath]

Also, to anyone saying SJW's.  Please Stop.  Considering how on like every news article with comments there's a bunch of homophobes or racists or sexists yelling about SJW's, it doesn't look like this will end well.  I know that you aren't the aforementioned idiotic bigots, but imagine the flame wars if somebody accuses people of being those...

[pincushionman]

I would suggest that adding such a warning the first time "high" tmewarp is engaged is enirely reasonable - just like the warning the first time physics-warp is used.

The reality is, while we are certainly aware of the day-night light-dark cycle in real life, we don't encounter high rates of time passage…like, ever, except in KSP. The closest thing in popular culture would be time-lapse video, which is never that fast, and if it might be, you don't deliberately choose alternate light-and-dark exposures because that would distract from the subject. So even for an average, reasonable person, the result might be unexpected.

Even in KSP you have to go out of your way to cause these effects. First, most timewarp - especially high warp - happens in map view. Second, high warp is disallowed except far from bodies, where revolution rates are low (or nonexistent for escapes) and shadow times are short relative to the orbital period. So little risk of flicker. You pretty much need to engage high timewarp while landed to cause this - and landed on a body that rotates fast enough for this to be an issue.

And how often do you really do that? Drilling and refining? That's relatively late in the tech tree, and some people never do it anyway. You could play KSP for years and never need to high-warp in a situation that deliberate warp would cause a flicker issue.

But you sure could do it by accident. And effects of accidental things are always unexpected. I say they just code in a warning.

[pandaman]

15 hours ago, pincushionman said:

I would suggest that adding such a warning the first time "high" tmewarp is engaged is enirely reasonable - just like the warning the first time physics-warp is used.

The reality is, while we are certainly aware of the day-night light-dark cycle in real life, we don't encounter high rates of time passage…like, ever, except in KSP. The closest thing in popular culture would be time-lapse video, which is never that fast, and if it might be, you don't deliberately choose alternate light-and-dark exposures because that would distract from the subject. So even for an average, reasonable person, the result might be unexpected.

Even in KSP you have to go out of your way to cause these effects. First, most timewarp - especially high warp - happens in map view. Second, high warp is disallowed except far from bodies, where revolution rates are low (or nonexistent for escapes) and shadow times are short relative to the orbital period. So little risk of flicker. You pretty much need to engage high timewarp while landed to cause this - and landed on a body that rotates fast enough for this to be an issue.

And how often do you really do that? Drilling and refining? That's relatively late in the tech tree, and some people never do it anyway. You could play KSP for years and never need to high-warp in a situation that deliberate warp would cause a flicker issue.

But you sure could do it by accident. And effects of accidental things are always unexpected. I say they just code in a warning.

That's the point I wanted to make, but failed to explain well enough.

THANKS. 

[p1t1o]

Has anyone with any actual knowledge of epilepsy commented yet?

[Alshain]

10 hours ago, p1t1o said:

Has anyone with any actual knowledge of epilepsy commented yet?

Yes.  Read the thread.

 

Epileptics know they can't play video games so there is no need for such a warning.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Alshain

[dragonsmate17]

as an Epileptic I can play video games but I have software that kills my screen if it hits the flash rate that is my trigger   

[paul23]

Just wish to stress: I'm all for a good FIX, instead of a bandaid-solution called a "warning". Bandaids come off sooner or later and will irritate.

A good solution would be to "smooth" the screen lightning, and give a maximum delta-lighting change that can be applied per "frame". This would "even out" the light & darkness during very high speed multiplier, solving all problems without any intrusive message.

 

A message (that will be ignored) I'm against. It annoys and if we follow this path and add constant warnings people will ignore them automatically.