Decrease science from Minmus

[thereaverofdarkness2]

Minmus has about as many biomes as the Mün, and it's more difficult to reach Minmus so it makes sense initially that you get more science from Minmus. The issue is that it actually takes a lot of work to collect data from all of the Mün's biomes, while getting everything on Minmus is barely more difficult than reaching Minmus. A simple craft with a small amount of fuel can easily touch down at multiple locations on Minmus. Even ion-propelled craft can land on it.

It becomes an issue when you collect all the science you can get from Minmus and you get so much that you've already unlocked most of the tech tree without even leaving the Kerbin system.

[Kerbal101]

I think it depends wither you are playing with mods or fully stock. If you play with mods that allow to map every biome and precisely display possible science, then one can collect 2/3(?) of techtree whilst staying in kerbin SOI. The community techtree mod addresses that. With stock however, its different thing...

[Blaarkies]

2 hours ago, Kerbal101 said:

I think it depends wither you are playing with mods or fully stock. If you play with mods that allow to map every biome and precisely display possible science, then one can collect 2/3(?) of techtree whilst staying in kerbin SOI. The community techtree mod addresses that. With stock however, its different thing...

Minmus alone can unlock 2/3 of the techtree...Kerbin+Mun+Minus unlocks the entire techtree, with 1000+ science to spare. Much of this science is from Gravioli experiments over each binome, at low and at high altitude.

Use the R&D list to see which binomes still need to be explored...and go to them? This is practice at Minmus, it is grinding on Mun, it is exciting on Duna...it's a nightmare on Eve.

For those who want the entire techtree, but don't want to go interplanetary...there's enough science on Kerbin for the jet parts? It's not like we humans invented the ion drive by going LEO...it's obliviously because of Voyager 1

[Jonfliesgoats]

Someone had an idea to link parts to specific achievements in sped, altitude, orbit, acceleration, etc.. I think that would solve a lot of this problem.  At some point, I think science will be overhauled (I base this statement on nothing more than my intuition).  When that happens I think it will be more challenging.

On that note, this game needs to remain accessible to lure people into engineering and operational nerdgasms.  If we make it too difficult we turn off a lot of people that just want to casuallly fly rockets and collect science.

[Kerbal101]

7 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

Minmus alone can unlock 2/3 of the techtree...Kerbin+Mun+Minus unlocks the entire techtree, with 1000+ science to spare.

Okay, then it really means vanilla Techtree is broken.

[Wjolcz]

What!? Science system is unbalanced!? How dare you! :0

Can we stop pretending that the science system and the tech tree is fine? Not because the devs didn't calculate it correctly, or something. It's almost impossible to balance a system like the one KSP has. Not because devs didn't want to do it, but because it's so convoluted.

Make it simple, because simple ideas work best.

[Chabadarl]

14 hours ago, thereaverofdarkness2 said:

It becomes an issue when you collect all the science you can get from Minmus and you get so much that you've already unlocked most of the tech tree without even leaving the Kerbin system.

This is not an issue for me, I want to be able to unlock the tech tree before leaving the Kerbin system... 

[Francois424]

1 hour ago, Chabadarl said:

This is not an issue for me, I want to be able to unlock the tech tree before leaving the Kerbin system... 

This is how I play now, at default settings, Mün + Minmus is enough for the full tree, even if you don't have all instrument when first landing on Minmus.
It's even better now since I like my satellites to have Ion propulsion and it's so far down the tree...  And I don't really need them for Kerbin's SOI.

I'd be fine with some reqs to unlock some nodes, as long as they don't require you to get to Eeloo to get the Ion engine (It's already useless as it is being far down the tree, no need to make it even more useless).
But postponing the nuke and the RTGs ?  Sure.  Postponing ISRU and Generators ? Sure.
But I like the way the game plays at default settings. 

The way I see it, there are 3 solutions to "Minmus giving too much science"

1. Don't go there at all... no really.
2. Edit the files/download a mod (or modulemanager cfg lines) and set Minmus' science gains equal to the Mün or Kerbin, or in between the two.
3. Decrease your science gains when creating your game in 'options' and if wanted crank it back up to normal (edit your save-game) once you decide to go inter-planetary.

The early grind is a pain when you limit your science gains to say, 20%, as it makes unlocking "essential nodes" like all the science instrument and good plane parts (not to mention solar panels or docking Sr.), annoying... to me anyways. But once you get what you need to go to Duna/Jool/Moho or other moons, even 20% feels overpowered at times.   The science points per experiment/location could use a balance pass overall IMHO, but it's so easy to tweak it manually as needed, depending on what type of campaign you're willing to do.

It's worth noting that in this version of science nodes (1.2) where instruments are earlier in the tree, it makes for faster science gains as you have more instruments the first time you get there.
Also worth nothing that earlier in the game's version, you could not reset Goo/Science Jr. so it made science slower to gain as well.
I'm still satisfied with the current rate regardless.  The real problem is if you abuse the system by putting science in the big lab and multiply what you get...  You can't blame the game for that tho.

Enough rambling, hope you enjoyed

[Wjolcz]

1 hour ago, Francois424 said:

You can't blame the game for that tho.

Yes, you can. Or maybe it's the devs' fault. It's broken and won't get fix so no need to blame anyone for that, right?

This thread shows exactly everything that's wrong with the idiotic science-to-tech research system. I see two solutions suggested here and it's either "lower the science gains" or "crank up the science gains". It goes from one end to the other all the time. And it's not because people don't know how to set up the science output properly, but because THE SCIENCE IS NOTHING ELSE BUT RESEARCH POINTS WHICH IS ALL WRONG and that's what makes this game so unbalanced in both ways.

I believe the only way to fix this is to disconnect tech research from science experiments.

I'll make a thread about how to mod the game in such a way it's possible, and believe me it's sooooo much better than the stock game ridiculousness I had to deal with in the past.

EDIT: Here it is.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Veeltch

[Racescort666]

I think part of what makes science gridy is that science is basically a currency for unlocking the tech tree. I don't have the answer to make science more balanced and less gridy, I've played with 20% science reduction and it has added it's own challenge but it still doesn't feel like the solution.

Having milestones that need to be accomplished before certain nodes can be unlocked would be cool but it takes away from the "play the game however you want" attitude that it currently has.

[Chabadarl]

9 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

I'll make a thread about how to mod the game in such a way it's possible, and believe me it's sooooo much better than the stock game ridiculousness I had to deal with in the past.

Tag me in your thread, I have thought about that a bit, but I'm way too lazy to start it.. (It took me two years just to sign up to the forum)...

[SkyRender]

I assure you, unlocking the entire tech tree without leaving Kerbin's SoI is entirely possible.  Moreso than ever now that the Mun has even more biomes.  And that's entirely intentional; the devs wanted it so that players can opt to stick to local science to max it out, or get bold and explore the solar system early.  It's a design principle known as "freedom of choice", and it tends to be a good bet with open-world games.

[paul23]

1 hour ago, Francois424 said:

This is how I play now, at default settings, Mün + Minmus is enough for the full tree, even if you don't have all instrument when first landing on Minmus.
It's even better now since I like my satellites to have Ion propulsion and it's so far down the tree...  And I don't really need them for Kerbin's SOI.

I'd be fine with some reqs to unlock some nodes, as long as they don't require you to get to Eeloo to get the Ion engine (It's already useless as it is being far down the tree, no need to make it even more useless).
But postponing the nuke and the RTGs ?  Sure.  Postponing ISRU and Generators ? Sure.
But I like the way the game plays at default settings. 

The way I see it, there are 3 solutions to "Minmus giving too much science"

1. Don't go there at all... no really.
2. Edit the files/download a mod (or modulemanager cfg lines) and set Minmus' science gains equal to the Mün or Kerbin, or in between the two.
3. Decrease your science gains when creating your game in 'options' and if wanted crank it back up to normal (edit your save-game) once you decide to go inter-planetary.

The early grind is a pain when you limit your science gains to say, 20%, as it makes unlocking "essential nodes" like all the science instrument and good plane parts (not to mention solar panels or docking Sr.), annoying... to me anyways. But once you get what you need to go to Duna/Jool/Moho or other moons, even 20% feels overpowered at times.   The science points per experiment/location could use a balance pass overall IMHO, but it's so easy to tweak it manually as needed, depending on what type of campaign you're willing to do.

It's worth noting that in this version of science nodes (1.2) where instruments are earlier in the tree, it makes for faster science gains as you have more instruments the first time you get there.
Also worth nothing that earlier in the game's version, you could not reset Goo/Science Jr. so it made science slower to gain as well.
I'm still satisfied with the current rate regardless.  The real problem is if you abuse the system by putting science in the big lab and multiply what you get...  You can't blame the game for that tho.

Enough rambling, hope you enjoyed

I'm using a way way more restricted version than what you suggest. - With Remote tech/far/konstruction time/TAC LS + all "survival parts" 10 times the mass. And I must say: it's really nice to "just" unlock the skipper engine/electronics using minmus; having to venture to (say) duna for the mainsail and onwards.

 

I do however agree that the aircraft stuff is way way too far in the tree, All those things should move 1 or 2 tiers lower. (And maybe they should have an increase in mass + an copy of all those parts with lower mass further down the road to show "composites")

[thereaverofdarkness2]

5 hours ago, SkyRender said:

I assure you, unlocking the entire tech tree without leaving Kerbin's SoI is entirely possible.  Moreso than ever now that the Mun has even more biomes.  And that's entirely intentional; the devs wanted it so that players can opt to stick to local science to max it out, or get bold and explore the solar system early.  It's a design principle known as "freedom of choice", and it tends to be a good bet with open-world games.

I like freedom of choice, but I don't feel I have that freedom. Part of the problem is that I don't really feel like I can do interplanetary missions very well until I have just about the whole tech tree unlocked. Before that, I'm struggling to pay for rockets and I can't afford the final launch pad upgrade. I hit the 140 ton limit with a craft carrying maybe 20 tons to orbit, and I don't have the small parts to make that 20 tons into something special. I don't have the fairings to build it the way I want. I'd have to assemble a craft in several pieces, using the little tiny docking ports, just to get it to Duna with room to perform any science, let alone bringing it back to Kerbin.

I don't mind doing a lot of science in the Kerbin system, but I want to have something to do out at the rest of the planets. I want a reason to explore them. Usually my reason to go anywhere is to collect science, and it isn't much fun when I have to unlock the whole tree before I can really start collecting.

[Blaarkies]

5 hours ago, thereaverofdarkness2 said:

I like freedom of choice, but I don't feel I have that freedom. Part of the problem is that I don't really feel like I can do interplanetary missions very well until I have just about the whole tech tree unlocked. Before that, I'm struggling to pay for rockets and I can't afford the final launch pad upgrade. I hit the 140 ton limit with a craft carrying maybe 20 tons to orbit, and I don't have the small parts to make that 20 tons into something special. I don't have the fairings to build it the way I want. I'd have to assemble a craft in several pieces, using the little tiny docking ports, just to get it to Duna with room to perform any science, let alone bringing it back to Kerbin.

If thats due to the rocket itself: Try having all stages 1 or 2 times as heavy as what is on top of them...

Start with a Mk1-2 capsule(3crew capsule). Thats 4tons. Add the batteries, solar panels, science experiments, heatshield(empty the ablator to 80), parachutes.
That should be 5tons now.

Now add at least 5tons of fuel and engine(the 4.5t quarter rockomax tank sounds nice) with a Terrier.
That should be 10t now.

So add a 9t rockomax tank and a Poodle(...or 3 Terriers).
That should be 20t now.

...add 18ton tank, enough engine to push that, and so forth(just continue the doubling of mass ratio for the launcher, the boosters, etc.)
Each of these stages have +1500m/s dv but made with low level parts. If you can get that into orbit, you have a fighting chance to get to Duna orbit and back again! 
Dont expect to launch a duna landing mission from the lvl2 launchpad, 140ton wont go that far with low tech parts...but with docking for refueling, it could be done

[thereaverofdarkness2]

That's the issue. I don't want to barely reach Duna. I want to go there and play around.

[paul23]

@thereaverofdarkness2 That's a funny proposition: it seems that our "goals" make a working solution mutualy exclusive. - I wish career mode was so hard that I can "barely reach" duna and I need to constantly stretch what the engines I have can do to the maximum level - and each new tier would enable me to do further/longer missions.

[Daveroski]

Please don't reply if you don't read all my post.

The reason for the 'science problem' is that the data is being used to upgrade vessels.
Part upgrades should be done with cash.
Money should be the currency for everything.
Data comes in 2 Distinct and separate forms Transmit-able and Returnable.
Transmit-able is easier and so cheaper. Samples are rarer ans so Really good value.
This means that people who prefer probes can go nuts and make money. People who prefer Manned can make more elaborate missions and still make money.
Science is repeatable (someone always wants to buy data) and the price goes up with distance from KSP
Kerbal wages can be an option or also on a sliding scale.
 

Example.

You get some science. You sell it for Money.
You use the money to buy tec upgrades. (Research requires money)
You use the money to buy parts.
You use the money to pay for Kerbal Training. (A Training Academy at the Astronaut Centre. This means a kerbal can be trained for their mission and have all the abilities required of them)

In real life we know this system well. We already have money in KSP. We just need to make our little green guys work for it.
Want a bigger lump of money more quickly than grinding for it?
Use your low tec crafts and Go Further!

[Kerbal101]

@Daveroski Thats interesting proposition, but that will break Science mode. The easiest way to solve the problem (me thinks) is to calculate the Science multiplier for difficulty. So that only at "easy" one gets full science tree within the Kerbin SOI (when used with "Mobile Processing Lab"!), and normal requires fully exploring at least several other planets. Hard would then require exploring whole system minus 1-2 bodies.

[thereaverofdarkness2]

2 hours ago, Kerbal101 said:

@Daveroski Thats interesting proposition, but that will break Science mode.

It doesn't have to break science mode. Why not have science mode work the old way, but change career mode?

Quote

The easiest way to solve the problem (me thinks) is to calculate the Science multiplier for difficulty. So that only at "easy" one gets full science tree within the Kerbin SOI (when used with "Mobile Processing Lab"!), and normal requires fully exploring at least several other planets. Hard would then require exploring whole system minus 1-2 bodies.

Then we still have the problem that we can't explore very well until we have the whole tech tree unlocked. That's why I think we should also expand the tech tree with upgrades to existing parts as well as futuristic tech that may cost large amounts of science.

Edited October 28, 2016 by thereaverofdarkness2

[Wjolcz]

7 hours ago, Daveroski said:

Please don't reply if you don't read all my post.

The reason for the 'science problem' is that the data is being used to upgrade vessels.
Part upgrades should be done with cash.
Money should be the currency for everything.
Data comes in 2 Distinct and separate forms Transmit-able and Returnable.
Transmit-able is easier and so cheaper. Samples are rarer ans so Really good value.
This means that people who prefer probes can go nuts and make money. People who prefer Manned can make more elaborate missions and still make money.
Science is repeatable (someone always wants to buy data) and the price goes up with distance from KSP
Kerbal wages can be an option or also on a sliding scale.
 

Example.

You get some science. You sell it for Money.
You use the money to buy tec upgrades. (Research requires money)
You use the money to buy parts.
You use the money to pay for Kerbal Training. (A Training Academy at the Astronaut Centre. This means a kerbal can be trained for their mission and have all the abilities required of them)

In real life we know this system well. We already have money in KSP. We just need to make our little green guys work for it.
Want a bigger lump of money more quickly than grinding for it?
Use your low tec crafts and Go Further!

Yes. That's the exact way I play my modded KSP and how the stock KSP should be. My career playthrough is very well balanced and I didn't even adjust any sliders that much. I have the upkeep costs, have to buy science to unlock nodes (only 10% science return) and can sell science.

The problem I'm having is that science experiments are kind of useless, but until I find a mod that turns the science results directly into rep (or a contracts pack that asks to perform them), I have to live with it. But it's not that bad. I just accept the "perform science" contracts (whenever they pop out) for now and as a reward I get reputation.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I agree with the OP, Minmus is too heavy in science. I think the whole thing could be rebalanced to include needing at least one outside body to finish off the tree, if not 1.5-2 outside bodies (things outside the Kerbin system). This would encourage more exploration. I usually play with science pretty low, 40-60% just because of this. 100% science is just way too squishy.

[Wjolcz]

59 minutes ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

I agree with the OP, Minmus is too heavy in science. I think the whole thing could be rebalanced to include needing at least one outside body to finish off the tree, if not 1.5-2 outside bodies (things outside the Kerbin system). This would encourage more exploration. I usually play with science pretty low, 40-60% just because of this. 100% science is just way too squishy.

Why do you want to force people to go places? Tweaking this abomination of research system won't help. Creating a new one would.

All I see is people either saying "I don't want to leave Kerbin's SOI to unlock the whole tree" and others go "I think exploration should be encouraged by lowering the science output". Neither of these "solutions" will help. Contracts, or rather missions should encourage the exploration. Science should always come second. First prove you can get somewhere and get funds for further scientific missions instead of going with a half-assed manned lander as your first mission and get some unlock points to actually land next time, because the landing legs are way down the tree.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Veeltch

[Jonfliesgoats]

Daveroski makes a good suggestion.  Along his lines, how about this: 

Money unlocks tech nodes but some number of days must pass before you can use those parts.  This simulates the commercial sector developing new materials, manufacturing techniques, etc.  Scientific research would reduce this time.  So you can sell science or you would conduct flights to make your unlock of parts more efficient.

 

[Wjolcz]

Just now, Jonfliesgoats said:

Daveroski makes a good suggestion.  Along his lines, how about this: 

Money unlocks tech nodes but some number of days must pass before you can use those parts.  This simulates the commercial sector developing new materials, manufacturing techniques, etc.  Scientific research would reduce this time.  So you can sell science or you would conduct flights to make your unlock of parts more efficient.

 

Only if it's actual science. You don't need regolith from the Moon to make a jet engine work.