[WiP] [1.3] STS - AVALON

[captinjoehenry]

31 minutes ago, RaendyLeBeau said:

A current status of work with technical details of the most important parts such as Engines, fuel tanks and features :

full album : http://imgur.com/gallery/wO1Ur

 

 

I really like what I am seeing other than the nuclear light bulb.  That should have over 1000 ISP and only use liquid fuel as it is a nuclear engine but other than that the rest of it looks really exciting!

[RaendyLeBeau]

35 minutes ago, captinjoehenry said:

I really like what I am seeing other than the nuclear light bulb.  That should have over 1000 ISP and only use liquid fuel as it is a nuclear engine but other than that the rest of it looks really exciting!

pls . see Full Album Part detail description on full album  " ..  projected to convert to nuclear gas-core engine"   .. 

But anyway, yes we work on it .. there is much to do. First, functional and design priorities are perfected (P1) afterwards, details and finities (P2) are obtained. And at the end IVA and textures (P3) ..
We are almost finished with P1. At P2 (phase 2) we will make the ATS propulsion conversion. - so soon .. - the designation as a gas core engine, we have already made, although it is not yet. - yes, you have noticed it correctly.  

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by RaendyLeBeau

[captinjoehenry]

Just now, RaendyLeBeau said:

pls . see Full Album Part detail description on full album  " ..  projected to convert to nuclear gas-core engine"   .. 

But Yes we work on it .. there is much to do. First, functional and design priorities are perfected (P1) afterwards, details and finities (P2) are obtained. And at the end IVA and textures (P3) ..
We are almost finished with P1. At P2 (phase 2) we will make the ATS propulsion conversion. - so soon .. - the designation as a gas core engine, we have already made, although it is not yet. - yes, you have noticed it correctly.  

 

Ok cool.  I sort of figured they were place holder figures and models at least to some extent but I just wanted to make sure!  Good luck with this it looks really exciting!

[Nansuchao]

43 minutes ago, RaendyLeBeau said:

pls . see Full Album Part detail description on full album  " ..  projected to convert to nuclear gas-core engine"   .. 

But anyway, yes we work on it .. there is much to do. First, functional and design priorities are perfected (P1) afterwards, details and finities (P2) are obtained. And at the end IVA and textures (P3) ..
We are almost finished with P1. At P2 (phase 2) we will make the ATS propulsion conversion. - so soon .. - the designation as a gas core engine, we have already made, although it is not yet. - yes, you have noticed it correctly.  

 

I submitted a PR for the engine, I don't know if it was the correct way.

A little consideration. The work you did for the correct realistic thrust of the engine (that is beautiful) took into account the stock values? Actually, AVALON has enough TWR and DeltaV to reach Mars in RSS without SMURFF or RO.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Nansuchao

[RaendyLeBeau]

On 30.12.2016 at 4:37 PM, RaendyLeBeau said:

In the calculation of the force of the E1 I have also worked with relation to other popular Stage 1 Engines . I have considered several factors.
Since I have not yet come to a conclusion are the calculations not yet finished,

here are some outer Dimension comparisons with other popular Stage1 Engines like F-1

http://imgur.com/a/bwUvd

 

 

source :  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine

Jet or rocket engine	Mass (kg)	Mass (lb)	Thrust (kN)	Thrust (lbf)	Thrust-to-weight ratio
RD-0410 nuclear rocket engine[9][10]	2,000	4,400	35.2	7,900	1.8
J58 jet engine (SR-71 Blackbird)[11][12]	2,722	6,001	150	34,000	5.2
Rolls-Royce/Snecma Olympus 593 turbojet with reheat (Concorde)[13]	3,175	7,000	169.2	38,000	5.4
Pratt & Whitney F119[14]	1,800	3,900	91	20,500	7.95
RD-0750 rocket engine, three-propellant mode[15]	4,621	10,188	1,413	318,000	31.2
RD-0146 rocket engine[16]	260	570	98	22,000	38.4
SSME rocket engine (Space Shuttle)[17]	3,177	7,004	2,278	512,000	73.1
RD-180 rocket engine[18]	5,393	11,890	4,152	933,000	78.5
RD-170 rocket engine	9,750	21,500	7,887	1,773,000	82.5
F-1 (Saturn V first stage)[19]	8,391	18,499	7,740.5	1,740,100	94.1
NK-33 rocket engine[20]	1,222	2,694	1,638	368,000	136.7
Merlin 1D rocket engine, full-thrust version [21]	467	1,030	825	185,000	180.1

 

 

 

 

 

 

sry. forgot to put  the Calculation approximation matrix :

Spoiler

The relationship calculations are based on relationships - and are only fictitious estimates for an engine that does not exist in the real world. !  -> results see picture above

So please do not hang me on it. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by RaendyLeBeau

[Kertech]

Is this being designed for a stock scale universe? Just that lowerstage appears to have over 7,000m/s (or is this not fully loaded?)

[captinjoehenry]

is there a download for any of this yet?  I would love to mess around with the parts you seem to have made already

[RaendyLeBeau]

On 31.12.2016 at 6:11 PM, Kertech said:

Is this being designed for a stock scale universe? Just that lowerstage appears to have over 7,000m/s (or is this not fully loaded?)

the most realistic calculations suggest a usage in RSS. .consequently it is actually  designed for real solar system -but stockconfig (MM. patch) will be later available.

 

 

On 1.1.2017 at 4:01 AM, captinjoehenry said:

download

yes but only 4 project contributors and tester  - see description main page

Edited January 2, 2017 by RaendyLeBeau

[Kertech]

2 hours ago, RaendyLeBeau said:

the most realistic calculations suggest a usage in RSS. .consequently it is actually  designed for real solar system -but stockconfig (MM. patch) will be later available.

That's great, I play 64scale so 7,000 is a rather magic number for me! (any more dv is wiggle room)

Getting excited for this! 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Kertech

[RaendyLeBeau]

just a first draw of the new ATS Engine : its a Closed Cycle Gas Core reactor   - based on the VISTA protoype  https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/239979.pdf

it needs now : Hydrogen / Tritium & Deuterium  

that's why now we required for this mod the : Community Resource Pack

 

so at moment we work on some setup values  ..

http://imgur.com/gallery/0BpwE

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by RaendyLeBeau

[captinjoehenry]

14 minutes ago, RaendyLeBeau said:

just a first draw of the new ATS Engine : its a Closed Cycle Gas Core reactor   - based on the VISTA protoype  https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/239979.pdf

it needs now : Hydrogen / Tritium & Deuterium  

that's why now we required for this mod the : Community Resource Pack

 

so at moment we work on some setup values  ..

http://imgur.com/gallery/0BpwE

 

 

That is looking nice but that isn't a closed cycle nuclear engine.  Closed cycle nuclear engines have a gas of uranium.  Usually uranium tetrafluoride that is in the gas state and undergoing nuclear fission inside of a quartz container.  This gives a ISP between 2,000 and 3,000 for various designs.  What you have there is an inertial confinement fusion engine that has a ISP of around 1,000,000.

I don't mean to be a stickler but I like accurate naming of things

[RaendyLeBeau]

8 minutes ago, captinjoehenry said:

 Closed cycle nuclear engines have a gas of uranium

Yes already possible with the categories - perhaps the designation not quite - in which category would you place vista?

[captinjoehenry]

Just now, RaendyLeBeau said:

Yes already possible with the categories - perhaps the designation not quite - in which category would you place vista?

Vista is very definitely a fusion engine here are the stats for the Vista http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#id--Pulse--Inertial_Confinement--Magneto_Inertial_Fusion   That is a great webpage for all of your rocket engine and realistic space ship needs.  For the Vista specifically: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/realdesignsfusion.php#vista  It is worth noting that the VISTA is a whole spacecraft and not an engine.  The spacecraft VISTA has 200,000 m/s of delta v.  A wet mass of 6,000,000 kg a dry mass of 1,835,000 kg.  So I am not sure how scalable this will be to an engine as the VISTA is a whole spacecraft including an engine.  Also something that might be intresting is an open cycle gas core nuclear rocket.  This is similar to a closed cycle nuclear rocket but there is no container around the nuclear gas so it does slowly leak out the exhaust but it has much better performance.  This type of engine has been proposed as an upper stage engine the the NEXUS launcher that is 60 ish meters in diameter and could boost 2,000 tons to low earth orbit.  Here is the link to the part about open cycle gas core nuclear rockets: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#id--Nuclear_Thermal--Gas_Core--Open_Cycle  In short it has an ISP between 3,600 to 10,000 and a thrust value between 108,000 to 5,000,000 newtons of thrust.  These are for real proposed open cycle gas core rockets so take them as guidelines.

[RaendyLeBeau]

On 2.1.2017 at 10:35 PM, captinjoehenry said:

fusion engine

many thnx 4 answer - sounds good. will correct as soon as possible.

 

On 2.1.2017 at 10:35 PM, captinjoehenry said:

This type of engine has been proposed as an upper stage engine

and yes defacto the ATS (Avalon tansfer stage) is part of the AVALON Upperstage.

 

@captinjoehenry

We are still developing - the current values & parameters could certainly change.

- what do you think you should have the values for our E218 (vista)?

- Engine Dimension radius 2.2m (4.4m dia.) / height 6.5m

I am always grateful for any constructive advice.

other deatils see here : http://imgur.com/a/wO1Ur

 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by RaendyLeBeau

[RaendyLeBeau]

ATS E218 Eninge will be corrected to : "Magneto Inertial Fusion" (like Vista)

Edited January 2, 2017 by RaendyLeBeau

[Nansuchao]

1 hour ago, captinjoehenry said:

-snip-

We were talking about the different options we had for the nuclear engine. It's my fault if Raendy got confused about the engines, I proposed both more or less at the same time.

[RaendyLeBeau]

so here last picture of the day : adapted design of E218 Engine

full album here :   http://imgur.com/a/we43l

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by RaendyLeBeau

[captinjoehenry]

27 minutes ago, RaendyLeBeau said:

ATS E218 Eninge will be coreccted to : "Magneto Inertial Fusion" (like Vista)

Ok so the interstellar mod has a VISTA in it with an ISP of 15,500 and a thrust of 2,400,000 n.  Now that has a few issues such as the full size one in real life only has 240,000 n of thrust so the VISTA in that mod has 10 times as much thrust and only 33 tons so that's an issue.  Now the open cycle gas core nuclear rocket would be much better suited if you keep it true to life for the heavy booster role as it'll work perfectly in atmosphere while the vista wouldn't work at all due to air interfering with the launch of the pellets.  From the nexus mod there is a 6,000,000 pound thrust open cycle gas core rocket which would be more desirable.  It is 6.25 meter diameter with a thrust of 3,394,000 newtons and a ISP of 1,964 based off a real life proposal for a booster.  It uses uranium tetrafluoride and tungsten along with liquid hydrogen with a ratio of 5 hydrogen to 0.0003 Uranium tetrafluoride to 0.00018 tungsten.  The tungsten is added to the hydrogen to increase the amount of thermal radiation that is captured and transferred to the hydrogen from the nuclear reaction.

[Nansuchao]

26 minutes ago, captinjoehenry said:

Ok so the interstellar mod has a VISTA in it with an ISP of 15,500 and a thrust of 2,400,000 n.  Now that has a few issues such as the full size one in real life only has 240,000 n of thrust so the VISTA in that mod has 10 times as much thrust and only 33 tons so that's an issue.  Now the open cycle gas core nuclear rocket would be much better suited if you keep it true to life for the heavy booster role as it'll work perfectly in atmosphere while the vista wouldn't work at all due to air interfering with the launch of the pellets.  From the nexus mod there is a 6,000,000 pound thrust open cycle gas core rocket which would be more desirable.  It is 6.25 meter diameter with a thrust of 3,394,000 newtons and a ISP of 1,964 based off a real life proposal for a booster.  It uses uranium tetrafluoride and tungsten along with liquid hydrogen with a ratio of 5 hydrogen to 0.0003 Uranium tetrafluoride to 0.00018 tungsten.  The tungsten is added to the hydrogen to increase the amount of thermal radiation that is captured and transferred to the hydrogen from the nuclear reaction.

The thrust on the VISTA in Interstellar Extended is the result of a long discussion between me and FreeThinker. Using the stats of the original project, a 3.75m VISTA would have something like 650kn of thrust. But had also a lot of room for improvement and a lot of issues, like the high heat emission, the energy needed to make it work and the fact that, as you stated, VISTA is not exactly an engine but a vehicle. VISTA in Interstellar is not self-powered like the real one, but needs a powerful reactor and a lot of radiators to make it work, so a higher thrust was chosen for gameplay reason. Note that in further studies, the thrust of the VISTA vehicle was improved, as well as his ISP, up to 17000s.

[captinjoehenry]

3 minutes ago, Nansuchao said:

The thrust on the VISTA in Interstellar Extended is the result of a long discussion between me and FreeThinker. Using the stats of the original project, a 3.75m VISTA would have something like 650kn of thrust. But had also a lot of room for improvement and a lot of issues, like the high heat emission, the energy needed to make it work and the fact that, as you stated, VISTA is not exactly an engine but a vehicle. VISTA in Interstellar is not self-powered like the real one, but needs a powerful reactor and a lot of radiators to make it work, so a higher thrust was chosen for gameplay reason. Note that in further studies, the thrust of the VISTA vehicle was improved, as well as his ISP, up to 17000s.

Ok that sounds good but still for an upper stage I would imagine that an open cycle gas core nuclear rocket would work better as it would have higher thrust and be self contained.  Not to mention it is a lot closer to real world possibility than the vista.  Also the 3D model is much more in line with an open cycle gas core rocket than a vista but that is always subject to change.

[Nansuchao]

1 minute ago, captinjoehenry said:

Ok that sounds good but still for an upper stage I would imagine that an open cycle gas core nuclear rocket would work better as it would have higher thrust and be self contained.  Not to mention it is a lot closer to real world possibility than the vista.  Also the 3D model is much more in line with an open cycle gas core rocket than a vista but that is always subject to change.

The first proposal, the one that lead to that new model by Raendy was a Closed Cycle Gas Core Engine. I tried it in game, and it gaves me a TWR of 0.46, not bad for a transfer stage from LKO/LEO to everywhere.

[captinjoehenry]

Just now, Nansuchao said:

The first proposal, the one that lead to that new model by Raendy was a Closed Cycle Gas Core Engine. I tried it in game, and it gaves me a TWR of 0.46, not bad for a transfer stage from LKO/LEO to everywhere.

Hmm that is true.  Still I for one am a big fan of having excess thrust as it makes big burns much faster and more accurate.  But other than that as for the model in all honesty it seems a bit more fitting to an open gas core than a closed cycle as most closed cycle designs I am aware of use elongated cylinder to increase the surface area of the 'lightbulb' allowing better cooling and more area to transfer heat to the propellent.

[RaendyLeBeau]

12 hours ago, Nansuchao said:

Note that in further studies, the thrust of the VISTA vehicle was improved, as well as his ISP, up to 17000s.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255200983_VISTA_--_A_Vehicle_for_Interplanetary_Space_Transport_Application_Powered_by_Inertial_Confinement_Fusion

"The fifth International Conference on Inertial Fusion Sciences and Applications (IFSA2007) IOP Publishing Journal of Physics:[2] This vehicle uses deuterium-tritium fusion. Its specific impulse is 17,000 s with a thrust efficiency about 60% (Fig.2) A method of changing the magnetic configuration has been studied to improve the thrust efficiency of laser fusion rocket. "

 

12 hours ago, captinjoehenry said:

 Also the 3D model is much more in line with an open cycle gas core rocket than a vista

yes i agree with you -

But I was also aware of this - a structural design implementation like Vista project would not fit to the avalon-upperstage structure concept. Actually the entire Avalon STS would not fit the Vista design concept. As already pointed out by Nano 'VISTA is a vehicle concept and not just a motor concept.

 

At the ATS-E218 We are still in the development phase there is still much to change.
But anyway, thanks for the constructive hints, as always try to make everything as realistic as possible in ksp.

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by RaendyLeBeau

[RaendyLeBeau]

I would like to present you the following concept.

Radiators (or SolarPanels) -  Design for the ATS Upperstage  ( * maybe we will switch to the VASMIR technology for a variety of reasons. But we are still discussing.)

full album :   http://imgur.com/a/iGNZ4

other design sketches :

http://imgur.com/a/zXu2J   

http://imgur.com/a/7lNlf  

 

 

@captinjoehenry    * Thanks for the constructive hints ! 

*(Francis Picabia (1879-1953) : “Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction.” )

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by RaendyLeBeau

[captinjoehenry]

47 minutes ago, RaendyLeBeau said:

I would like to present you the following concept.

Radiators (or SolarPanels) -  Design for the ATS Upperstage  ( * maybe we will switch to the VASMIR technology for a variety of reasons. But we are still discussing.)

full album :   http://imgur.com/a/iGNZ4

other design sketches :

http://imgur.com/a/zXu2J   

http://imgur.com/a/7lNlf  

 

 

@captinjoehenry    * Thanks for the constructive hints ! 

*(Francis Picabia (1879-1953) : “Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction.” )

 

 

 

I personally would say it would probably be best if this style of launcher used a self contained engine for the upper stage.  As that is both lower tech and feels much more realistic for a launch vehicle and not an entire space ship.  As such I would recommend some type of fission rocket probably an open cycle gas core rocket as that type of rocket has been proposed for use for quite a few heavy launch vehicles including the NEXUS which would have 1 or 2 open cycle gas core nuclear rockets for an upper stage so including built in radiators would probably work best for the nuclear rocket.  

As a side note I am mainly for the nuclear fission rocket for an upper stage as this is a launch vehicle and as such this whole stage is effectively expendable after boosting it's payload towards it target.  As such it doesn't really make sense to have the complexity of a whole high performance power plant to power a fusion rocket as it would be a massive waste to just ditch all of that high performance hardware after you finish boosting.