[0.24.2] Taverio's Pizza and Aerospace v1.7.1 (22/09)

[Taverius]

1.3.2 is out. Mostly minor changes plus my attempt at making a rover wheel thats ludicrously fast but balanced. sort of.

[Zhuikin]

How do you get these huge wings to not fall apart ? (referring to the big Concorde-like plane in the first post) I see you have some struts there, but not nearly enough in my experience - for me just the stock delta wing attached to a plain fuselage is all floppy and will break of on takeoff 50% of the time... So i wonder if you did change something about connection stability in your mod, or maybe it's me doing something wrong.

PS.: Played around with the parts a bit and they are great, and very useful/needed.

Found a weird TV Testwing thingy in there - probably not meant to be released with the pack.

Also i have one more question (not directly related to your mod, but since you seem to have some knowledge about this...):

How do i read/use the Air requirements of the jets engines? Because the engines and the intakes seem to use different frames of reference somehow: the Turbofan for example says it uses 81 Intake Air, the normal Circular intake says it provides 0.2 intake air. Using 2 of each on a testbed, the resource window says i have 40 intake air... Apparently this is not a issue, since the engines do work (with reduced output maybe?) but i still think it would help to know, what exactly the numbers mean.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Zhuikin

[thaflya]

Hi, first of all you did a good job with this mod.

But i noticed that most of your wings become uncontrollable above ~500m/s. Then the Aircraft turns 180° and flies upside down. As far as i know this is related to mach number effects.

When i want to go supersonic, which wings should i use? only stock wings or are any of this mod wings good for high mach numbers.

Btw i am using FerramAerospace.

[Taverius]

Hi, first of all you did a good job with this mod.

But i noticed that most of your wings become uncontrollable above ~500m/s. Then the Aircraft turns 180° and flies upside down. As far as i know this is related to mach number effects.

When i want to go supersonic, which wings should i use? only stock wings or are any of this mod wings good for high mach numbers.

Btw i am using FerramAerospace.

Hum, that doesn't happen for me. No idea what's going on there, got a picture of the craft?

[thaflya]

You can get a picture soon, but i used the craft also with stock wings and all went fine then i used ur wings and things becomes wierd at high speed, at low speed there is no problem. I used it for a SSTO, thats why i need to go this fast.

Are you using Ferram mod too?

Edit: The Pictures

Here it get our of controll:

Edited April 23, 2013 by thaflya

[Taverius]

Yes.

No such problems, which is why I want to see the craft and eventually get the craft file

[camlost]

From my experience you need bigger vertical stabilizers.

[B787_300]

Hey Taverius,

what is the equation used to calculate ramjet thrust and what does it top out at?

[Taverius]

Hey Taverius,

what is the equation used to calculate ramjet thrust and what does it top out at?

Its a spline curve based on data from NASA EngineSim:

    velocityCurve
    {
        // Based on Fnet data from NASA EngineSim, curve fitted with MuMech CurveEd
        key = 0 0 0 0
        key = 87.5 0 0 0.003
        key = 90 0.031 0.003 0
        key = 585 0.1 0.0003 0.0003
        key = 935 0.32 0.001 0.001
        key = 1520 1 0 0
        key = 1755 0.77 -0.003 -0.003
        key = 1920 0 0 0
    }

first value is speed, second is thrust %, you can ignore 3rd and 4th those are tangents for the point.

[thaflya]

Strange. I rebuild the craft from the pictures and it did not spin around, i´ve gone up to 1050m/s and no problems. So i guess there are some additional conditions that i am not aware of. I have another craft that becomes uncontrollable but i need further testing before i steal your time again and present you some concrete problems.

[smunisto]

Ok, I've spent the last 4 days trying to get my SSTO to orbit, with varying results.

I am using HL body, and the whole thing(with the B9 large wings and engines) weights about 100 t.

So now I am trying to fix my max altitude only on jets, but it is hard, since I don't really get the difference between the Turbo Jets in your mod and the Ramjets.

Also the difference between the Ram Air Intake and the Shock Cone Intake.

I guess I am trying to make a fairly intricate design(read heavy payload, heavy craft overall), because I have no problems with my rocket missions to other planets, but SSTO cargo craft drive me crazy.

These are the things I know so far, please correct me if I am wrong, and if possible - give some more info on how exactly these parts are supposed to be used:

1. Shock Cone Intakes and Ram Air - Intake Air 0.275 vs. 0.25 respectively, with the shock cone being a tad heavier than the ram air intake(negligible difference). Are shock cones getting more drop in intake air when the craft is pitched up farther up than the actual prograde vector? For example my cargo SSTO is quite heavy, and as result I get a significant difference between prograde vector and the actual orientation of the plane, which is always higher by atleast 10 degrees - does this mean that i have to use Ram Air Intakes instead of shock cones? If not - if both types of intakes get the same drops when pitching higher/lower than the prograde vector - what is the incentive to use ram air intakes anyways?

2. TurboJets and RamJets - this one i think I understand - you have scaled all jet engines to suck proportionally less air (more ISP on the ramjets than on the turbojets), but the RamJets provide very low thrust until you pass 1200 m/s. Which makes them useless for main jet engines. So my cargo craft is subsonic - my expectations are for it to get to about 23-25 km and speeds of about 1000-1100 at that point, before firing the rocket engines. Which means TurboJets for my craft(and any subsonic craft).

So I guess you made the Ramjets with the idea of being used on supersonic atmospheric craft, not SSTOs. The simplest example that comes to my mind would be a central Turbo-Jet engine + 2 Ramjets on the sides, for the supersonic stage of the flight.

[Taverius]

@smunisto:

The Cones have slightly larger area, but the intake vector in the model which defines the direction in which they get peak airflow points down slightly, like the cone. The IntakeAir numbers youre citing are the size of the 'tank', which as little to do with actual performance, by the way. Due to an oversight by the KSP devs, the area numbers for intakes are so small they all show as either a string of 0s ending in a 1, or as 0. You have to look at the .cfg to get the real story.

Unfortunately there is no other way to differentiate the intakes right now in KSP, so yeah the choice is generally simple.

In your case, since you're travelling at 10 AoA most of the time, the cone would be better.

If I were you though I would tilt the main wing up 5 degrees with shift-QWEASD - this is called angle of incidence, or rigging angle, or a number of other things in different countries because when you get 3 engineers in a room you'll get 3 incompatible opinions. Like its done in the D-175 B9 example craft.

That would put your craft's AoA at 5, which is far more manageable. If you already did that and still carrying on at 10deg AoA, you need more wing

As for the ramjet, you're exactly right. They let you travel fast for not a lot of engine if you're high up, since they use a relatively air-poor mixture, but the TWR is too low to be worthwile as an intermediate stage in SSTOs. Incidentally if you learn how to transition properly you don't need more ramjets than turbojets, the same number or less (4x small = 1x medium) can easily sustain a craft up high if you can get it to the point where it actually creates more thrust than the intakes create drag

Edit: 1.3.3 is out. See changelog, and be sure to fully remove previous versions before upgrading.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Taverius

[mosolov]

Hello Taverius,

I just updated to V1.3.3, removed the old files first etc.

But now my game stops loading at start up, this happens when it tries to load the advancedCanard.

Any idea why this happens?

Edit;

I discovered that there are no .mu and .mbm files in that folder, so it was unwise to remove the folders of the standard normal size parts (which are in te 'part' directory of your mod).

So now i have to re-install the game.

Edited April 28, 2013 by mosolov

[Taverius]

I'm sorry you hit that problem, but yeah, its not wise to to remove the stock parts ... if you're using a mode like mine that overwrites default configs, its good practice to keep a copy of the vanilla parts folder.

[heikkik]

TV Aerospace doesn't replace the models of the parts so you're supposed to overwrite the part.cfg's (merge folders, copy and overwrite)

[smunisto]

I have done a quick test with wings tilted 5 degrees up, even with just a prototype version of my cargo SSTO it worked pretty well.

Now i need to figure out how to get atleast 4:1 intake cones to TurboJets ratio without making my craft look like an ancient torture device with so many cones.

And for the update - you left the old wing versions too? Or i ended up with duplicates, like you said?

I deleted everything that contained NTBI in and overwrote the other files.

Now i have some parts that are identical as name, but apparently different version:

Let's say "6x4 Wing" and now i have "6x4 Wing2" with different shape and stats.

[Taverius]

Let's say "6x4 Wing" and now i have "6x4 Wing2" with different shape and stats.

That's ac14's original naming scheme for NTBI sloped wings: '<semi-span>x<length> wing' has a swept trailing edge, '<semi-span>x<length> wing2' has a straight trailing edge.

[smunisto]

Thanks for the clarification, so i have not messed up the installation of your mod. 3Gb game with so many mods would have been painful to reinstall

[thaflya]

Hi, i tested a bit more supersonic design and got the problem again that wings of your mod make the planes uncontrollable at high speeds. I´ve written that few days ago in this thread and now i checked it again and can upload a craft file of that trouble causing plane. I uploaded it. I used only stock parts exept your wings. I use the Ferram Aerospace Research v0.9.1 mod. Can you pls test this Taverius and tell me if you get the same problem or if you know what caused the instabilitys.

Problems start to occurs at high speed above a altitude of 10km.

Ueberschall4.craft

[SpaceK531]

Hi, i tested a bit more supersonic design and got the problem again that wings of your mod make the planes uncontrollable at high speeds. I´ve written that few days ago in this thread and now i checked it again and can upload a craft file of that trouble causing plane. I uploaded it. I used only stock parts exept your wings. I use the Ferram Aerospace Research v0.9.1 mod. Can you pls test this Taverius and tell me if you get the same problem or if you know what caused the instabilitys.

Problems start to occurs at high speed above a altitude of 10km.

Ueberschall4.craft

At +10km the atmosphere thins out Too much for wings to be effective at anything less than very fast. If your plane is not toing fast enough, or your center of thrust is at a different height to your center of gravity then the plane will be uncontrollable.

[thaflya]

@SpaceK531

Thanks for the answer, but i have to admit that i am not that stupid (no offense ).

- The stock Delta Wings on the exact same plane work without any problems.

- Low Speed is no problem, the problems occurs when the plane accelerate above ~600m/s then its getting totally crazy.

- center of thrust is in a good line with the center of mass, ofc this is not perfect, i wonder if this can cause the problems. But its virtually not possible to bring this more in line.

Maybe donwload the craft file and get a better look on it.

[Captain_Party]

I have downloaded this onto my mac and It gets stuck loading on StandardCtrlSrf, even though theres no such thing in the parts folder

[Taverius]

I have downloaded this onto my mac and It gets stuck loading on StandardCtrlSrf, even though theres no such thing in the parts folder

Drag-and-drop on the mac replaces the folder. You have to copy-and-paste, drag-and-drop on mac with mods like this which overwites the cfgs for stock parts will cause your OS to delete the folder with the models & textures, which is why it hangs.

@SpaceK531

Thanks for the answer, but i have to admit that i am not that stupid (no offense ).

- The stock Delta Wings on the exact same plane work without any problems.

- Low Speed is no problem, the problems occurs when the plane accelerate above ~600m/s then its getting totally crazy.

- center of thrust is in a good line with the center of mass, ofc this is not perfect, i wonder if this can cause the problems. But its virtually not possible to bring this more in line.

Maybe donwload the craft file and get a better look on it.

Checked the craft. The wings are fine, you simply don't have a large enough vertical stabilizer. You're getting away with it using delta-shape wings, but swept wings don't behave like delta wings.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Taverius

[Firov]

This mod has some great parts. Especially the new wings and gear. However, the massive fuel capacity of the space plane fuselages makes things a lot harder. My SSTO below was originally designed without this mod and weighed maybe 28 tons on launch, excluding the 5 ton capacity payload. With this mod it weighs nearly 36 tons before payload due to the ~1750 unit jet fuel capacity in that Mk3 fuselage. It uses, maybe, 150 in getting to orbit.

That said, I can understand your logic in doing this. In the interim, I've just modified the launch clamp part to have a huge fuel and oxidizer capacity so I can transfer most of the jet fuel to that on the runway. It'll be nice to have the tweakables once they release them.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Firov

[Taverius]

I keep meaning to make structural Mk2/Mk3 fuselages, but it feels a little pointless with all the work I'm doing on the B9 pack.

I'll get around to it at some point I guess, but I may just be subconsciously delaying in the hope that tweakables come and I don't have to bother