Martian Concrete

[Jonfliesgoats]

Mars dirt and sulphur when hot makes concrete.  

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/545216/materials-scientists-make-martian-concrete/

Lunar concrete too:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunarcrete

Is our future on Mars, Europa or Ceres dependent on burrowing and concrete?  Is our future in the stars dependent on us turning into burrowing, spacefaring, techno-badgers?

[Green Baron]

Hmm, where did they get the marsian soil from to make concrete out of it ?

"Lunarcrete" is hypothetical. "Cement" needs to be produced and water imported. Or a magic spell involving sulfur.

 

Our future in the stars is first and foremost dependent on finding means of transport and ways to stay healthy in a deadly environment. I don't see that in the next decades ... edit: but if we get that far, then yeah, we'll become hobbits in space, the kings under the mountain in their halls of concrete. Maybe scented concrete ?

:-)

yae (yet another edit): Since the link in the above link seems broken, here's the new link to linked paper on the preprint server: https://arxiv.org/abs/1512.05461

Edited December 16, 2016 by Green Baron

[kerbiloid]

4 hours ago, Jonfliesgoats said:

Mars dirt and sulphur when hot makes concrete.  

A killer murder feature for any Martian drilling. Or a rover with hot engine or transmission. Or truck joints.

4 hours ago, Jonfliesgoats said:

Lunar concrete too:

Moon is b_each, too.

[p1t1o]

The recipe is 50% sulphur, where on Mars are they going to get it all? Is it plentiful there?

[YNM]

Technically, you can always add any binders to anything to be called a concrete. Even on Earth we have soilcrete and sandcrete. The question that remains is what should be the binder ? Rubber ? Asphalt (yes, technically those black road surface is asphalt concrete) ? Some other materials ?

If you only have the binder or so (like mud) it'd be bricks instead. They're not good if used alone or let to set in one time.

Edited December 16, 2016 by YNM

[todofwar]

1 hour ago, p1t1o said:

The recipe is 50% sulphur, where on Mars are they going to get it all? Is it plentiful there?

Sulphur seems to be common most places. Look at the mountains of the stuff we produce as waste over here, Venus is covered in sulphur clouds, etc. I don't remember what the Martian soil composition is off the top of my head, but there's probably a healthy amount of sulfur there. 

As for the question of cement, apparently this doesn't need any. It's not really concrete, more like a sulfur polymer with lots of stuff suspended in it.

[Green Baron]

Yes, sulfur (btw.: f or ph ?) is no rare element.

Time to move :-)

 

[kerbiloid]

Sulfhur is one of the most common and nasty pollutions in metal ores.
So, unlikely they would lack it.

[magnemoe]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

A killer murder feature for any Martian drilling. Or a rover with hot engine or transmission. Or truck joints.

Moon is b_each, too.

Drilling for water or rater ice on Mars would make sense. Drill down into the ground until you hit ice then pump down steam to melt it and extract water. 
As I understand its lots of underground ice many places. 
Water has lots of uses. 

[kerbiloid]

2 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Drilling for water or rater ice on Mars would make sense.

Drilling makes sense.

But since

Quote

Mars dirt and sulphur when hot makes concrete.  

they would have enough plenty of drills. Because concrete means abrasive,

Edited December 16, 2016 by kerbiloid

[todofwar]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

Yes, sulfur (btw.: f or ph ?) is no rare element.

Time to move :-)

 

I'm very bad at those kinds of things when spellchecker doesn't catch it. My final step when writing anything for actual publication is to double check I picked one convention and stuck with it consistently. 

[Green Baron]

On the danger if straying off topic, my best knowledge about orthography was probably short before i began using programs and spellcheckers for writing. I have one pc (the one i'm at now) that has no spell checking installed (and i am too lazy to sudo aptitude install ...).

It irritates me when i do not see any red underlining ... it can't all be correct :-)

Are we allowed to take a spellchecker to Mars ? Information has mass ...

 

[kerbiloid]

Wiki calls it sulfur, and wiki doesn't mistake.

[Racescort666]

4 hours ago, Green Baron said:

sulfur (btw.: f or ph ?)

Do you call the engine cover of your car the hood or the bonnet?

[Green Baron]

1 hour ago, Racescort666 said:

Do you call the engine cover of your car the hood or the bonnet?

Motorhaube. But here i'd have to say el capó ...

Why ?

Edited December 16, 2016 by Green Baron

[James Kerman]

9 hours ago, magnemoe said:

As I understand its lots of underground ice many places.

Actually liquid water appears to exist on Mars.  The MRO's HiRIES camera shot  images of Newton Crater in 2011 that showed numerous dark lines extending downwards during the martian spring and summer and fading during the colder seasons.  They are known as "recurrent slope lineae".
:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_flows_on_warm_Martian_slopes

[Jonfliesgoats]

I think the appeal of sulfur-concrete on Mars is because what water there is may be required for other things.  Mining water ice out of the ground, melting it and making it available for habitation or electrolysis into fuel may be more important.  

Concrete to seal the ends of lava-tubes and shore up the insides of excavated living spaces may require lots of water.  Of course, if it turns out that water is more available than we thought, it's a moot point.  Alternative concrete is nice tech to have, even if it's not required.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Jonfliesgoats

[kerbiloid]

Sulfur, perchlorates, natural concrete, traces of water.

Spoiler

Three sides of Mordor were bounded by mountain ranges, arranged in a rough rectangle: the Ered Lithui (translated as 'Ash Mountains') on the north, and the Ephel Dúath (literally, "Fence of Shadow") on the west and the south. In the northwest the pass of Cirith Gorgor led into the enclosed plain of Udûn. Sauron built the Black Gate of Mordor (the Morannon) across the pass, joining the Towers of the Teeth, two earlier guard towers built by Gondor to keep a watch on this entrance. The passage through the inner side of Udûn into the interior of Mordor was guarded by another gate, the Isenmouthe. Outside the Morannon lay the Dagorlad or Battle Plain.

Núrn, the southern part of Mordor, was less arid and more fertile. Streams here fed the salt Sea of Núrnen. Sauron's slaves farmed this region to support his armies.

Inside the Ephel Dúath ran a lower parallel ridge, the Morgai, separated from the Ephel Dúath by a narrow valley that Frodo and Sam followed northward after escaping from Cirith Ungol. Water trickled into this vale from the Ephel Dúath, and the text describes it as a "dying land not yet dead". The vegetation included "low scrubby trees", "coarse grey grass-tussocks", "withered mosses", "great writhing, tangled brambles", and thickets of briars with long, stabbing thorns. The fauna included maggots, midges, and flies marked with "a red eye-shaped blotch".

Gorgoroth is an arid plateau in the north-west of Sauron's realm of Mordor, in the midst of which stood the volcanic Mount Doom. The plateau was covered in volcanic ash, and was effectively a desert with little to no plant growth.

The plateau was a large triangular area, mostly surrounded by high mountain ranges. The north was fenced by about 300 miles of the Ered Lithui, and the west by about 150 miles of the Morgai (the inner range of the Ephel Dúath), and most of the south-east side by mountain-range spurs that extended south-west from the Ered Lithui and east from the Ephel Dúath.

Thus Gorgoroth had superb natural defences, and it was the heart of the realm of Sauron. In the northeast, on a smaller spur of the Ered Lithui, Sauron constructed his chief fortress of Barad-dûr. Gorgoroth was the location for the mines and forges that produced Mordor's arms and armour. Agriculture in Gorgoroth was virtually impossible, but armies of Sauron's soldiers lived in camps of huts and tents on the western margins at the feet of the Morgai escarpment.[37] Sauron built a network of highways across Gorgoroth for his soldiers and messengers; there were cisterns and wells at various points on these roads through the desert.

 

[Racescort666]

On 12/16/2016 at 4:22 PM, Green Baron said:

Motorhaube. But here i'd have to say el capó ...

Why ?

I totally dig el capo. "Sulfur" is more common in the US in technical publications while "sulphur" is used interchangeably but the preferred spelling for the rest of English speaking countries. 

[Green Baron]

On 17.12.2016 at 1:06 AM, James Kerman said:

Actually liquid water appears to exist on Mars.  The MRO's HiRIES camera shot  images of Newton Crater in 2011 that showed numerous dark lines extending downwards during the martian spring and summer and fading during the colder seasons.  They are known as "recurrent slope lineae".

First semester sedimentary geology: never judge an outcrop from afar. Never. Judging from the satellite foto alone is like the little girl visiting Neuschwanstein castle in Bavaria and excitedly shouting with her high child voice: "Look ma ! It looks like disneyland !". A valid analogy, but the wrong conclusion.

Fans like those on the picture can be build by gravity alone if they have enough time (see structures on Ceres) or by steady winds. On earth these structures build up much faster due to higher weathering rates, precipitation, frost-changes, chemical weathering etc., on Mars they have millions of years time to do so.

I said that before: as long as no robot took a thin section of these structures under a polarizing microscope i will express my doubts about it.

:-)

Edited December 20, 2016 by Green Baron

[James Kerman]

Jonfliesgoats has actually started a new thread on this phenomenon:

 

[YNM]

4 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Fans like those on the picture can be build by gravity alone if they have enough time (see structures on Ceres) or by steady winds. On earth these structures build up much faster due to higher weathering rates, precipitation, frost-changes, chemical weathering etc., on Mars they have millions of years time to do so.

These RSLs changes on a monthly basis, which, I suppose, Mars' 1/3 g surface gravity or 1/1000 atm pressure could account for easily. For example, Mars dust storms are different from those on Earth - only the most fine dusts are carried up, although that makes the whole sky very, very dark.

Also, the findings are backed by presence of certain salts just underground.

But I have to admit that these are preliminary, and certainly needs proper investigation. Go on rover, come on !

Edited December 20, 2016 by YNM