Space Colony, or: send what people up?

[Jestersage]

As a Gundam fan, one thing I do notice is that: Western shows tend to depict colonies is where you send the elites up, while Japanese shows tend to depict colonies is where you send the undesaireable up.

One thing that had been bugging me is that: while it's more likely for elites to migrate to "a better place", In general people tend to prefer to stick to the same place, especially the elites -- no one want to move unless they are forced to typically (Australia for example), or find a better place.

So I would like to ask you:

1. Which is better in terms of cost, sending elites up or send undesirables up?
2. Which option is far more likely to happen?
3. Can this kind of segregation be considered as good policy or not?

Edited December 18, 2016 by Jestersage

[Jonfliesgoats]

Interesting question.  This gets right to one of the problems of ethics and technology facing humanity,

1.). Elites, unfortunately.  They have the funding and ambition.  Undesirables, however you define them, don't have the funds or spare time.  We see this already with private investors in space (tech. Billionaires) and those paying for orbital and suborbital flights of fancy.

2.) Elites.  Already happening.

3.) I don't think this is ideal but I don't think we have a choice.  Ideally, space would be open to all of us.  However, as long as launch costs remain high, only those chosen by governments/companies or people with lots of money will make the trip.  It's unlikely that a grad student with a decent proposal will make it up let alone sending prisoners to some celestial penitentiary like in sci-fi movies.

A question for you: How would you provide egalitarian access to space without restricting access in general?

[Jestersage]

 

1 minute ago, Jonfliesgoats said:

Interesting question.  This gets right to one of the problems of ethics and technology facing humanity,

I don't think this is ideal but I don't think we have a choice.  Ideally, space would be open to all of us.  However, as long as launch costs remain high, only those chosen by governments/companies or people with lots of money will make the trip.  It's unlikely that a grad student with a decent proposal will make it up let alone sending prisoners to some celestial penitentiary like in sci-fi movies.

A question for you: How would you provide egalitarian access to space without restricting access in general?

I think one of the reason we see the "prisoners/undesirables" happening is because the slave trade and the Australia prison colony showed it may be possible to do so, as long as you treat the passenger not as human but "human resources".

I am confused about your question - isn't egalitarian access the same as general access?

[Jonfliesgoats]

General access means we can get a lot of stuff up with frequent launches.  Egalitarian access means we move to make space accessible to smaller players, but this may reduce the financial incentive to build more rockets, etc.  The two things may or may not be mutually exclusive.

[kerbiloid]

Martian colony is a bunkhouse for beggars with price for nouveau riche.

Earth deportation places could feed themselves rather than waiting a spaceship with food.

Edited December 18, 2016 by kerbiloid

[Jestersage]

To begin with, the only way to provide both is to do the same as both planes, railways, and cars does -- make the launch cheap. In fact, building less rocket is actually the reason why SpaceX/Blue Origin can become viable. The other thing is to have a reason to go up

[Nibb31]

We've been through this conversation a billion times. Do we really need to start another thread ?

Deporting people to space is a stupid idea. Besides the cost (sending them to Guantanamo is much cheaper), the skillsets that are required to maintain a viable colony aren't typically found in your average prison population. This isn't Australia where all you needed was unskilled labor. Any manual work will be done better and cheaper by robots.

People selling their house to move to Mars isn't realistic either. Although migration is part of human nature, we also tend to follow the bison, to seek greener pastures. Poor people are the ones who migrate, not rich people with a valued skillset. People move because they want to improve their living conditions, not degrade them and put their families lives at risk. The sole motivation of colonists and settlers has always been to increase their comfort, their safety, and those of their families. Space is neither safer nor more comfortable than even the most hostile place on Earth. It has no promise of a better life.

There will be explorers who will go for the thrill of adventure, but explorers are not settlers.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Nibb31

[kerbiloid]

It's much cheaper to build a virtual underground Martian colony for odd people on Earth, than to build a real underground Martian colony on Mars. TV, cola pipeline and popcorn conveyor are your friends.

Edited December 18, 2016 by kerbiloid

[James Kerman]

Psychology also comes into play when you are talking about sending "undesirables" on 4 year isolated missions.  I wouldn't want to spend that time in a can with other Australians, and I'm an Australian.  Imagine the fight over the last can of beer!!

[TopHeavy11]

2 hours ago, James Kerman said:

Psychology also comes into play when you are talking about sending "undesirables" on 4 year isolated missions.  I wouldn't want to spend that time in a can with other Australians, and I'm an Australian.  Imagine the fight over the last can of beer!!

I just LOL'd so hard.

[benzman]

16 hours ago, Jestersage said:

 

One thing that had been buggering me is that:.............

I rather think you mean 'bugging me'.  At least, I hope you do!

 

[PB666]

On 12/17/2016 at 9:21 PM, Jestersage said:

As a Gundam fan, one thing I do notice is that: Western shows tend to depict colonies is where you send the elites up, while Japanese shows tend to depict colonies is where you send the undesaireable up.

One thing that had been bugging me is that: while it's more likely for elites to migrate to "a better place", In general people tend to prefer to stick to the same place, especially the elites -- no one want to move unless they are forced to typically (Australia for example), or find a better place.

So I would like to ask you:

1. Which is better in terms of cost, sending elites up or send undesirables up?
2. Which option is far more likely to happen?
3. Can this kind of segregation be considered as good policy or not?

Starting with Gundam fan sends up a whole lot of flags.

The first people who colonize are likely to be elites, the intellectual/military fusion type, but then after they realize is wasteful, meh they would stay on earth and send junior level trainees as their steady. When I was looking for a job out of college I saw a position open for a junior level technician at the research station in Antartica, hazardous duty pay. I thought to myself, despite being jobless not desparate enough to take that.

One thing thats not going to happen is to send vagrants into space. The social attitude of the time it to provide rationed assistence to the poor (thats why AcA act is endanger, the ruling party does not want to provide health care to the 'lowest productivity rung' of society, they will not foot the bill for a 5 million dollar rocket trip to a colony, forget that. So that the impoverished that live in space get this way if they because they are the progeny of those who colonized space. This idea is dwindling interest story line. Like one of the 1980s mars movies or Babylon-5.

 

 

 

[kerbiloid]

An alternative: they can offer a choice for vagrant persons: either this way, or body-modification and cyber-augmentation for a space colony.

(Anyway this can't solve demographic problems. Just comparing the Earth surface area and total area of Mars, Moon and Ceres).

[Jestersage]

46 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

An alternative: they can offer a choice for vagrant persons: either this way, or body-modification and cyber-augmentation for a space colony.

(Anyway this can't solve demographic problems. Just comparing the Earth surface area and total area of Mars, Moon and Ceres).

Yeah. Death Penalty is cheaper. Or Fallout Vaults

I always come to under stand that any "vagrant colony" is exactly as it is: a prison colony, an out-of-sight, out-of-mind argument that sounds more humane on paper (hey, we are letting these people who are not like us to have their own space! No longer locked in prison cells!) but is actually worse. So whenever I think of this question in terms of the poor, I honestly does not expect them to actually survive.

[NSEP]

I heard that women consume less food and are cheaper. Female Elites maybe?