KSC vs Climate Change

[Brendan_]

What's the least CO2 increase it would take to put enough solar-to-microwave satellites in orbit to power the world?

While greenhouse gas emissions and losses of Earth's capacity to sequester it is too complex for clean power generation alone to solve, a network of solar power satellites sending microwave energy to ground receivers is one of the most fantastic possibilities for ending most use of fossil fuel.

This, at a Kerbal scale, is the challenge I'd like to focus my next Career play through on. It needs some numbers to figure what the greenhouse gas impact of missions at KSC is, and some estimate of electricity needs of Kerbal civilization (scaled from Earth since there's not a lot of buildings in-game besides the space center). Estimates of the emissions from manufacturing and transporting parts for satellites and launch vehicles is also worth considering.

But I've been out of the KSP world for a while and could use suggestions on what mods would be good for this. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has a hyper-efficient stock SSTO to put payloads in orbit, actually. But is there anything to model power transmission? I think Kerbal Interstellar had some things like that. I doubt anyone has a mod modeling climate change on Kerbin (CO2 concentrations changing surface temperatures and sea levels), but that would be pretty amazing...

I'm very early in daydreaming how to run this, but is anyone else interested in something like this?  

Edited December 23, 2016 by Brendan_
Clarifying context

[MinimalMinmus]

What you could do in stock is estimating each month/year your "impact" over the ressources, and have a corresponding "sacrifice launch". Such a launch is basically whatever is expensive en masse, and fling the whole on a collision course with Kerbin.

[Brendan_]

1 hour ago, MinimalMinmus said:

What you could do in stock is estimating each month/year your "impact" over the ressources, and have a corresponding "sacrifice launch". Such a launch is basically whatever is expensive en masse, and fling the whole on a collision course with Kerbin.

Getting a fairly accurate measure of how much CO2 (and maybe other greenhouse gases) are released by fuel burned within Kerbin's atmosphere is doable. But I don't see what sacrificing aerospace parts in a fiery suborbital trajectory would accomplish. Could you explain?

Edited December 23, 2016 by Brendan_

[MinimalMinmus]

1 hour ago, Brendan_ said:

Getting a fairly accurate measure of how much CO2 (and maybe other greenhouse gases) are released by fuel burned within Kerbin's atmosphere is doable. But I don't see what sacrificing aerospace parts in a fiery suborbital trajectory would accomplish. Could you explain?

It would allow to have a self-imposed penalty for CO2 pollution, by wasting funds.

[nascarlaser1]

You could use Kerbal constructs and the different extensions for it to make more buildings.

Any LS system would also help make it so you have to balance food/supplies to measure al well.

KER would allow you to see how much Electricity/other supplies you have on the vehicle.

EVE would just be for fun /

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by nascarlaser1

[Brendan_]

1 hour ago, MinimalMinmus said:

It would allow to have a self-imposed penalty for CO2 pollution, by wasting funds.

Hmm.. well, the point for me isn't the Funds cost. As in the real world, money itself has no effect on CO2 concentrations. 

The challenge is how to use the least fuel inside the atmosphere while getting enough solar power generating and transmitting infrastructure in orbit to satisfy all the energy needs of Kerbin. Thus, with electric vehicles and machinery, there'd be no need for fossil fuels for anything but rocketry.

Using the 2013 estimate of 12.3 terawatts (wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption) and KSP being something like a 1/10th scale of Earth and the Solar System, then I'll set the goal as 1.25 terawatts of microwave energy after accounting for energy losses in beaming through the atmosphere and conversion losses between solar energy collected and turned into focused microwave emissions.

1 hour ago, nascarlaser1 said:

You could use Kerbal constructs and the different extensions for it to make more buildings.

Any LS system would also help make it so you have to balance food/supplies to measure al well.

KER would allow you to see how much Electricity/other supplies you have on the vehicle.

EVE would just be for fun /

 

Snacks are always vital to any mission.

Kerbal Constructs? If it lets me place ground stations where I want, that'd be great! I'll have to research more, but I'm thinking that kerbo-synchronous orbits on the solar-to-microwave satellites would be wise, since anything that got between the satellite and the ground receiver would probably be roasted, not to mention reduce power supplied to the grid. Safer to have constant, known no-fly zones. I'm not sure if that would effectively make lower orbits, even in different planes, off limits too...

Energy storage is a problem in everything solar. Orbital satellites will be on the night side of Kerbin half the time. So I'll have to figure out some level of overcapacity so the day side satellites can compensate for power needs during the night that satellites in Kerbin's shadow would be dropping....

[MinimalMinmus]

43 minutes ago, Brendan_ said:

Hmm.. well, the point for me isn't the Funds cost. As in the real world, money itself has no effect on CO2 concentrations. 

The challenge is how to use the least fuel inside the atmosphere while getting enough solar power generating and transmitting infrastructure in orbit to satisfy all the energy needs of Kerbin. Thus, with electric vehicles and machinery, there'd be no need for fossil fuels for anything but rocketry.

Using the 2013 estimate of 12.3 terawatts (wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption) and KSP being something like a 1/10th scale of Earth and the Solar System, then I'll set the goal as 1.25 terawatts of microwave energy after accounting for energy losses in beaming through the atmosphere and conversion losses between solar energy collected and turned into focused microwave emissions.

Snacks are always vital to any mission.

Kerbal Constructs? If it lets me place ground stations where I want, that'd be great! I'll have to research more, but I'm thinking that kerbo-synchronous orbits on the solar-to-microwave satellites would be wise, since anything that got between the satellite and the ground receiver would probably be roasted, not to mention reduce power supplied to the grid. Safer to have constant, known no-fly zones. I'm not sure if that would effectively make lower orbits, even in different planes, off limits too...

Energy storage is a problem in everything solar. Orbital satellites will be on the night side of Kerbin half the time. So I'll have to figure out some level of overcapacity so the day side satellites can compensate for power needs during the night that satellites in Kerbin's shadow would be dropping....

Notice that, being 10x smaller than Earth, Kerbin actually radiates 100x less energy.

[Sharpy]

One simple, very efficient approach: move all operations out of Kerbin ASAP.

I'd go with KIS, KAS, Pathfinder, OSE Workshop and Extraplanetary Launchpads, possibly also any mod to provide really big solar panels, because seriously, Gigantors just don't cut it.

Launch a minimalistic craft with one Conestoga, one Hacienda, two Casas, a couple Golddiggers and as many smart kerbals (primarily engineers) as one can reasonably fit. Some 4 Buckboards-1000 configured for PartKits, Ore, Dirt, Rare Metals, and Exotic Minerals. Also some electric power, say, 4 gigantors worth. Configure Hacienda as Ironworks Foundry, configure two Casas as geology lab and Clockworks workshop. Possibly Chuckwagon set up as life support if you go with these. Also load up a small amount of Rare Metals and Exotic Minerals. 

Land it on Minmus. Deploy base. Start mining ore. Activate "Prospector", "Manufacture PartKits" and "Manufacture Equipment". There, you've bootstrapped a self-sustainable, self-expandable base.

Manufacture larger drills in Clockworks, install. Make and add radiators. Drill ore and dirt. Manufacture some Chuckwagons, because Buckboards are way tiny to hold the resources. Expand base: more drills, research lab, geological research, extra Hacienda as ISRU, and so on. Once manufacturing a new module takes you minutes, and not weeks, manufacture essentials for extraplanetary launchpads. And with that, start launching your network of satellites.

There, ever since the launch of the base not a gram of CO2 on Kerbin. The only reason to visit KSC is to go to VAB or SPH to design new craft and satellites to be deployed on Minmus. And to unlock more research nodes as science from Minmus lab arrives, be it through radio or through drops of science containers.

[GoSlash27]

You have to not do anything at all. KSC requires no power and has no carbon footprint. Any launches will negatively impact the environment, so the most environmentally responsible way to play the game is not to play at all.

Best,
-Slashy

[Brendan_]

Sharpy, that's the best answer yet; thanks! 

I've been messing with KSPI Extended, figuring out their Megajoule fuelled power transmission, as they're the only mod I know of with beamed power. If any had beamed power without warp drives and exotic reactors, I'd go with it instead, but I hadn't found one... 

 

The numbers to power a planet get ridiculous quickly. But, with the definition of 1 watt being 1 joule of energy over 1 second, Earth's 2013 figure of 12.3 terawatts for the year, divided by the 31,536,000 seconds in a year, equals about 390,030 joules every second, on average. KSPIE treats 1 unit of KSP's "Electric Charge" as 1 kilojoule for the sake of its custom Megajoule resource (1000 Electric Charge = 1 Megajoule).

So, the goal of my challenge, scaled to Kerbal size (1/10th) is a system of solar satellites that constantly delivers 39 Megajoules per second.

However, the energy to be collected has to factor in atmospheric losses in transmission to the surface, conversion losses in the whole light->electricity->microwave->electricity process. 

 

Given KSPIE's figures (and their research is better than any I'd come up with) an LKO solar network isn't likely to do much, even with a sun-synchronous dawn-dusk terminator orbit placing satellites in the sun at all times. So... this challenge requires the inverse-square law to increase solar yield by getting these satellites closer to the sun and trying to beam it back to Kerbin.

 

[Turf]

On 12/25/2016 at 0:21 PM, Sharpy said:

One simple, very efficient approach: move all operations out of Kerbin ASAP.

I'd go with KIS, KAS, Pathfinder, OSE Workshop and Extraplanetary Launchpads, possibly also any mod to provide really big solar panels, because seriously, Gigantors just don't cut it.

-SNIP-

Once, I almost did this on Mun...except without Pathfinder, OSE Workshop, KAS, and any other mods adding big solar panel. I added USI Kontainers and Nuclear reactor. Only the objective is to launch with less delta-V and reach planets easily. This is done in Career mode.

Brought tiny smelter and tiny auger so 3 kerbals can carry it. Convert-o-tron 250 and Stock Drill. Orbital launchpads instead the other 2 launchpads. Workshop. However, I was forced to update KSP, all mods and saves is deleted.

The plan is to manufacture more parts via launching a craft with the desired parts (need more auger? Go to VAB, place one auger, save it, then load it in Mun). Heavier parts are planned to be brought using RCS and docking port to attach into the base.

Continue doing this until all planets has at least one base, though I prefer placing bases on a planet located in a convenient place so I can reach planets easily.

 

My idea is to absorb all the CO2 released in one year from kerbin, put it on a payload, launch into space, put the payload into somewhere else (possibly Mun), and release the CO2. Repeat this. It may postpone climate change. This idea may work in real life, try it!

Edited January 5, 2017 by Anbang11

[Sharpy]

While most of space-based solutions won't be very helpful - in particular, beamed power at a scale that makes a difference, while replacing "dirty" power, pushes so much extra heat into Kerbin that greenhouse effect is a minor thing by comparison.

First, the manufacturing operation can scale exponentially as you add more factories. You need to import more Kerbals to drive them though.

Then - just build solar panels in bulk. Huge dropships filled with solar panels to the brim. Drop them Then build solar farms all over Kerbin.

Since the manufacture is off-planet, it doesn't contribute to carbon footprint. Dropships cause some air heating but don't really contaminate the atmosphere. There's some junk left over, but it's not such a big problem. Maybe create artificial sea reefs? And solar power on Kerbin is quite reliable.

29 minutes ago, Anbang11 said:

My idea is to absorb all the CO2 released in one year from kerbin, put it on a payload, launch into space, put the payload into somewhere else (possibly Mun), and release the CO2. Repeat this. It may postpone climate change. This idea may work in real life, try it!

This won't work if you don't have clean power on site.

To get a ton of CO2 to Mun you need roughly 4 tons (with pretty efficient reusable vehicle) of fuel. Manufacturing 4 tons of fuel using "dirty power" will more than likely produce more than 4 tons of CO2.

[Turf]

12 hours ago, Sharpy said:

To get a ton of CO2 to Mun you need roughly 4 tons (with pretty efficient reusable vehicle) of fuel. Manufacturing 4 tons of fuel using "dirty power" will more than likely produce more than 4 tons of CO2.

Hydrogen fuel are on our side. Solar panels provide power to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen, then use them as a rocket fuel.

Or...give up and use space elevator to pump all the CO2 into the top and spew CO2, ensuring the CO2 reaches escape velocity and never return to kerbin.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Anbang11