totm may 2024 [1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[TheSuMa]

10 minutes ago, Terwin said:

1) RD would shortly implement containers to be used for generating transport routes (at least partially, if not fully, closing the 'bump in size' exploit of this

Aware of that, this one is a very small fix and without knowing the details of the implementation for the wolf-containers i think it should also eliminate the "at least partially, if not fully" out of you sentence , but this is only a guess as long as i don't know the implementation of it.

12 minutes ago, Terwin said:

2) If you have the infrastructure in-place to refuel your single stage vessel, then reducing/eliminating route costs is reasonable and appropriate.

Is it? If your fuel-depot is at the routes destination, how do you get there without paying for any fuel? Agree that if you refuel, then this fuel should be free to use and if you launch the vessel dry and refuel after connecting to source depot the route could become free. This is exactly how the current implementation behaves. Both of the PR's mentioned are implemented in exactly this way, even the simple one, i just eliminating the exploits as a side-effect of other fixes 

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

I was under the impression that

1) RD would shortly implement containers to be used for generating transport routes (at least partially, if not fully, closing the 'bump in size' exploit of this, something I had not noticed as I had electric rovers establishing routes on kerbin that were much larger than this route, but with rovers that are smaller than my fuel station, if possibly heavier)

2) If you have the infrastructure in-place to refuel your single stage vessel, then reducing/eliminating route costs is reasonable and appropriate.

1.  Yup that's the plan.

2.  Agreed.

[Terwin]

32 minutes ago, TheSuMa said:

Is it? If your fuel-depot is at the routes destination, how do you get there without paying for any fuel? Agree that if you refuel, then this fuel should be free to use and if you launch the vessel dry and refuel after connecting to source depot the route could become free. This is exactly how the current implementation behaves. Both of the PR's mentioned are implemented in exactly this way, even the simple one, i just eliminating the exploits as a side-effect of other fixes 

Currently, that fuel comes from an automated mining drone(currently mun and eventually others including Minmus, eve(Gilly), Duna(Ike), and some times Jool(whichever tiny moon I can get to easier) or Dres), or from returning vessels(kerbin orbit), as I usually return with quite a bit of ore(I like using ISRU vessels launched with plenty of empty ore tankage that I top-off before heading back, just in case).

Actually, I had to reinstall KIS because the stock inventory system would not let me transfer empty medium sized(300 unit) ore tanks to my fuel station.(not needed on Kerbin, so I empty the tanks onto the station then transfer the empty tanks for future vessels to use, as my conservative approach generally leaves me with a lot more ore accumulating in LKO than I will ever use)

 

So, realistically, if WOLF could take appropriate amounts of fuel from my fuel stations, that would generally just mean a few more drone trips to top it off, some busy-work I am happy to extract away after the first time or two. 

Now I just need to remember to add a WOLF route calculator to my next tourist trip to the Mun so that WOLF can take advantage of my propensity to build fleets of ISRU vessels.

[Tacombel]

Something strange.

- I took a hopper to orbit and start it to refuel its own tanks.

- After a while I stop it and connect the hopper to a station

- When docked I tried to start it again and get an error saying the hopper is not connected to a depot. The paw button says disconnect from depot, but it doesn't work

- I switch to the space center and back. Then the paw button reads connect to depot and it connects without problem.

 

Another thing. I have a fuel hopper LF+Ox in a station and another getting karbonite in a different station, and this is my dashboard

the fuel outgoing is missing.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Tacombel

[DoktorKrogg]

RE: the conversation around refueling vessels at the destination in order to get free transport routes in WOLF, @RoverDude and I discussed that at length during development and agreed that if you've taken the time to build out the MKS infrastructure necessary to support refueling at the destination, then you're still playing in the spirit of MKS/WOLF. So we don't see this as an exploit. Getting a bunch of extra payload by docking at a massive station is a bit exploit-y but the cargo crates will address that issue. In general, we aren't super worried about "exploits" because KSP is a single player game. There are myriad ways to cheat in KSP. It's trivial to hack your save file to give yourself a bunch of credits or drop a drill at the KSC to extract RareMetals, fill a kontainer and recover it for massive profits, for instance. If that's how you want to spend your time, so be it. The only person you're cheating is yourself. 

[Kielm]

The planned changes to WOLF logistics would be exceptionally useful outside of WOLF. 

The ability to repeat payload transfers from biome to biome at a cost determined by a player's ability to efficiently run a mission once would be a mod capable of standing on it's own (i.e. KSTS but without the Kerbin SOI restriction).

[Roman7616]

On 11/17/2020 at 3:36 AM, been said:

rover dude I was wondering when we were going to get these new 50 meter parts 

Hello. Could you help me. I don't understand where are there airlock and cargo bays on Atlas modules ?  My modules aren't matching your picture. There are no such parts as 01, 02 ets. And 20 m. modules so big and have cone base , so they stay on the ground very badly. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Roman7616
Incorrect text

[Jasseji]

15 hours ago, Terwin said:

2) If you have the infrastructure in-place to refuel your single stage vessel, then reducing/eliminating route costs is reasonable and appropriate.

ye but, consider you make an SSTO to refule the fuel station and then run it to bring fuel to orbit, refuel it, land it = free route 

the fuel needs to come from somewhere

[RoverDude]

4 hours ago, Roman7616 said:

Hello. Could you help me. I don't understand where are there airlock and cargo bays on Atlas modules ?  My modules aren't matching your picture. There are no such parts as 01, 02 ets. And 20 m. modules so big and have cone base , so they stay on the ground very badly. 

some of those bits are not in game.  Working on an alternate for the 20m bottom part.

1 hour ago, Jasseji said:

ye but, consider you make an SSTO to refule the fuel station and then run it to bring fuel to orbit, refuel it, land it = free route 

the fuel needs to come from somewhere

And we're ok with that - if you want to build out refueling infrastructure, that's well within the spirit of the mod.  At the end of the day, it's a single player game.

[Tacombel]

As a complement to the excelent tutorial beeing written by @JamesonKerbal I am creating another wiki page with tips I am discovering as I advance. I hope you find it useful.

https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/wiki/WOLF-—-some-useful-tips

 

[Terwin]

3 hours ago, Jasseji said:

ye but, consider you make an SSTO to refule the fuel station and then run it to bring fuel to orbit, refuel it, land it = free route 

the fuel needs to come from somewhere

Generally it comes from vessels returning from the Mun or Minmus, as I tend to make all of my manned ships ISRU and top them off before leaving a body(in case of cat-on-keyboard inspired errors), so once they get to LKO they have an excess of both fuel and ore, so I drop it off at my fuel depot which is occasionally useful if I mis-designed or mis-managed a launch stage but still managed to make orbit.(it is also a lot faster/easier than 'dumping' fuel through nuclear engines before we got the drain valve)

Mun, Minmus, and Ike each generally get a 'fuel drone' either as a stand-alone or to supplement a fuel depot(but those rarely get used beyond the rendezvous, docking, and station building achievements) 

[CateredCarrot]

I noticed just now that the Nuclear Fuel chain is not in WOLF. Is this intentional or will it be implemented in future releases?

Edited January 15, 2021 by CateredCarrot
Typo

[RoverDude]

1 minute ago, CateredCarrot said:

I noticed just now that the Nuclear Fuel chain is not in WOLF. Is this intentional or will it be implemented in future releases?

Good question.  I would say log a github issue, then we can noodle over what makes sense.

 

[TomfooleryYT]

I accidentally move files from a different KSP Save into my main save last night and I reinstalled all of my mods, but now I'm running into my game stopping while loading this:

Here's the log file if you need it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sbhft9qx4JkQCOuJZL8J-I8knr5F5ylI/view?usp=sharing

[RoverDude]

3 minutes ago, TomfooleryYT said:

I accidentally move files from a different KSP Save into my main save last night and I reinstalled all of my mods, but now I'm running into my game stopping while loading this:

Here's the log file if you need it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sbhft9qx4JkQCOuJZL8J-I8knr5F5ylI/view?usp=sharing

Start with KSP version, and a screenshot of your GameData folder. 

[TomfooleryYT]

Just now, RoverDude said:

Start with KSP version, and a screenshot of your GameData folder. 

1.8.1 and uhhh...... yeah, there's a lot:

 

 

 

[RoverDude]

@TomfooleryYT - And which version of MKS?  you can see it in the version folder in the UmbraSpaceIndustries\MKS folder.  tbh, there are so many mods there I have zero idea what would be causing your conflict.  But given it's the PDU, probably something screwing with the nukes.  Like - you have both NFE *AND* KSPIE installed.

[TomfooleryYT]

1 minute ago, RoverDude said:

@TomfooleryYT - And which version of MKS?  you can see it in the version folder in the UmbraSpaceIndustries\MKS folder.  tbh, there are so many mods there I have zero idea what would be causing your conflict.  But given it's the PDU, probably something screwing with the nukes.  Like - you have both NFE *AND* KSPIE installed.

1.4.1. they worked together just fine before this. I never use the Tundra pdu, would deleting it fix it, you think?

 

[RoverDude]

22 minutes ago, TomfooleryYT said:

1.4.1. they worked together just fine before this. I never use the Tundra pdu, would deleting it fix it, you think?

 

If they worked 'before this' then what changed?  If you installed a new MKS version - especially a pre-release - all bets are off, it's dependent on 1.11.x  - and tbh I have no idea.  The best bet per usual is to uninstall one mod at a time (or uninstall all of them, then reinstall one by one) until you find the culprit.

[TomfooleryYT]

2 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

If they worked 'before this' then what changed?  If you installed a new MKS version - especially a pre-release - all bets are off, it's dependent on 1.11.x  - and tbh I have no idea.  The best bet per usual is to uninstall one mod at a time (or uninstall all of them, then reinstall one by one) until you find the culprit.

I might just have to fully reinstall the game, hopefully I can save the saves. I accidentally pasted one folder into another one, specifically one with RSS and RO, so who knows what's messing something up...

Edited January 15, 2021 by TomfooleryYT

[RoverDude]

3 minutes ago, TomfooleryYT said:

I might just have to fully reinstall the game, hopefully I can save the saves. I accidentally pasted one folder into another one, specifically one with RSS and RO, so who knows what's messing something up...

best bet is a clean install, then install your mods, then copy over your save.

[CateredCarrot]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Good question.  I would say log a github issue, then we can noodle over what makes sense.

Done! Thank you! IMHO, it could be worked around without it. But if MKS already has in situ building it should be included in WOLF as well.

[Terwin]

28 minutes ago, CateredCarrot said:

Done! Thank you! IMHO, it could be worked around without it. But if MKS already has in situ building it should be included in WOLF as well.

I'm pretty sure WOLF is intended to abstract away the uninteresting and processor intensive parts, not replace all of MKS.  (ie the mining bases so many of us used with planetary logistics to support our 'main' planetary base, such that you had to make sure you visited them every X days in the proper order or you would run out of something important)

It would be fairly simple to make a vehicle with empty tanks, hoppers and manufacturing parts that lands, hooks up the hoppers, manufactures the new parts for the WOLF support base, then detach the hoppers, drain the non-fuel tanks and move to the next biome.

While I'm happy to abstract away ongoing mining/refining/bulk transport/maintenance activities, abstracting away actual base building feels a little too sim-city or Maser of Orion to me.

[CateredCarrot]

I agree @Terwin. My point was just that Nuclear Fuel is something that has to be done not very often, but it has to be done at some point. Just refueling nuclear, as intended by the MKS chain, is something that IMHO could be done by wolf. But as it is not that often that it comes to this state, I agree that it is not a "must have".

[DoktorKrogg]

40 minutes ago, Terwin said:

abstracting away actual base building feels a little too sim-city or Maser of Orion to me

Which is why MKS isn't going away and why we provided hoppers in WOLF.   We definitely envisioned players mixing and matching pieces of WOLF and MKS. If WOLF is meant to replace anything it would be Planetary Logistics and Orbital Logistics, but certainly not all of MKS. Everyone has different ideas about what is and isn't "fun" in KSP. I think the USI suite is in a really good place now in terms of offering different options for different playstyles and we've got even more in the pipeline.  Stay tuned!