Making a rocket to beat all other rockets

[DerekL1963]

1 hour ago, munlander1 said:

So wait guided rockets are not illegal?

Not AFAIK.   But rockets large enough to make use of a guidance system are likely large enough to be regulated.  (Not to mention that an actual guidance system is quite a bit more complicated than a stabilization system.)

[munlander1]

7 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

Not AFAIK.   But rockets large enough to make use of a guidance system are likely large enough to be regulated.  (Not to mention that an actual guidance system is quite a bit more complicated than a stabilization system.)

If I flew a rocket on a predetermined flight path before launch would that be considered an illegal guidence system? Like as long as it said to be (I making these up here) 70 degrees and 1,000 feet?

The reason why I ask was this was part of my childhood fantasy.

[DerekL1963]

1 hour ago, munlander1 said:

If I flew a rocket on a predetermined flight path before launch would that be considered an illegal guidence system? Like as long as it said to be (I making these up here) 70 degrees and 1,000 feet?

Like I said, AFAIK, guidance systems aren't illegal.

But I suspect that on an amatuer budget and with off-the-shelf parts you aren't going to get much more than what amounts to a stabilization system.

[munlander1]

Just now, DerekL1963 said:

But I suspect that on an amatuer budget and with off-the-shelf parts you aren't going to get much more than what amounts to a stabilization system.

I might try a stability assist system in the future. Right now it's just wishful thinking.

[DerekL1963]

2 minutes ago, munlander1 said:

I might try a stability assist system in the future. Right now it's just wishful thinking.

Yeah.  T'ain't easy or cheap.

[munlander1]

Just now, DerekL1963 said:

Yeah.  T'ain't easy or cheap.

I kind of looked into it last August but I don't have $1,000 to spend. Would be neat, but $1000 dollars is $1,000 dollars

[alpha tech]

Ok back on topic.

these certain safety measures have been taken

1. Safety glasses/ wielding helmets/goggles/aprons  

2. Respirator, and all other stuff I may or may not have can be acquired a the nearest harbor freight tool store  

3. 55 gallon oil drum to hide behind (may upgrade later)

4 and a test pit. (currently in construction).

 

ok so

The Liquid Fuel engine

How Much Thrust do I need it to produce?

How hot will the gas be.

What kind of alloy do I need.

Get as much Isp as I can.

Figure an ignition solution.

Thrust vectoring, gimbal,  

making the Tanks for fuel and oxidizer

I will be making regular solid rockets to get the gyros and electrical components right.

the electrical components will be the most difficult thing to get to work

 

 

 

[munlander1]

THANK YOU for considering some safety measures. How many model rockets have you launched? If you making motors I would start with potassium nitrate(I think that's it) and sugar. These are somewhat safe but can go wrong. The king of random has a video where he makes E9-4 rockets. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_rocket_motor_classification

So, I don't want to dash your dreams here. But it is unlikely you will be able to get into orbit. Small steps here. Make sure what you want to be doing is legal in your area. Have you read the link about the faa stuff? You gonna have to be able to study on the forms of propulsion. Also, with liquid fuel engines. Make sure the fuel source is away from your rocket when testing. It would also be a good idea to have a fuel shut off in case of a failure. I would also dig a hole for myself. The steel drum is not a bad idea. But make sure you fill it with something in case shrapnel gets in it.

 

To answer your questions

1.Depends on the weight of the rocket at that time

2.Depends on how efficient the engine is. I think that was one of the problems they had with the F-1 engine. It does not burn at peak efficiency. Obviously also the amount of fuel you are burning

3. The alloy you need depends on the temp.

4. The best efficiency is not always the best over all. Again with the F-1 thing.

5.Scott Manley has a video on real ignition solutions but I think your best bet will be a glow plug if some sorts.

6.Gimbaling is a challenge. Most hobby liquid motors have the chamber and nozzle as one peice. You could gimbal the whole thing but that gets into structural problems.

7.Making the tanks? I not gonna try to answer that one. It not gonna be easy of you want to use pressurized oxegen though. I think that's your best bet because cryo stuff would be crazy.

I would look into flight computers

Also you gonna want to be able to have an abort option. So you will have to find the weak points of your rocket and be able to destroy your rocket. Granted these are only for much larger rockets.

 

[alpha tech]

well I pretty much had all of that

I haven't launched anything yet. I need  a basic design for a test model that is solid and needs to incorporate the following things.

thrust vectoring or gimbal (what is the difference between them?)

Fin control

and guidance for electronics testing.

I've watched the king of random and I'm going to make the solid fuel he made

Scott had info on how you ignite your engine by hypergolic fuel in the pre burner,

Edited February 21, 2017 by alpha tech

[DerekL1963]

50 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

the electrical components will be the most difficult thing to get to work

I follow a mailing list for designing and building large(er) rockets and rocket motors, and the general consensus there is that the electronics are the easy part.  Designing, building, and debugging the engines is considered far and above the hardest part.   And generally, they're building engines much smaller than you're going to need.
 

7 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

I've watched the king of random and I'm going to make the solid fuel he made

He made rocket candy, which means you're setting yourself up to fail.  There's a very serious group that's been trying to get enough performance out of rocket candy to fly to space on a suborbital trajectory, they've been at it for over a decade now without succeeding.

No offence, but you really need to learn to crawl first.

[alpha tech]

I've looked at liquid fuel engines and I will need the following

1. A Turbo Pump / Turbine 

2. A Pre Burner  

3. Fuel/Oxidizer Pumps

4. An Injector.

5 Pressure tanks.

now on what somebody said a while back about a the smallest craft ever attempted was by JAXA well they were probably trying to put a payload and that is why it was big.

now to the control of the spacecraft while it is in space for staging an retro.

I live near the lake, so I was wanting to use my surroundings as much as I can and landing it in the water seems pretty obvious but I need a way to talk to it thru GPS. or satellite. but if I use Arduino and make a PGNS and a AGC I can get predictions where it will land but nothing more than that because It will be automated the whole flight and that is something that I want and don't at the same time.

the recovery system will be a parachute and a reserve also I want a backup to save video and other like record it to a chip and Isolate that chip to where if I have to abort like on little joe 2 where misassembled gyros caused it to go out of control and explode.

[Spaceception]

57 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

3. 55 gallon oil drum to hide behind (may upgrade later)

Upgrade to a blast proof window. That way you can see what's going on, and be protected at the same time, also figure out the minimum safe distances of explosions before you test, this depends on how big your rocket is, so double and triple check your numbers before testing.

[alpha tech]

5 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

I follow a mailing list for designing and building large(er) rockets and rocket motors, and the general consensus there is that the electronics are the easy part.  Designing, building, and debugging the engines is considered far and above the hardest part.   And generally, they're building engines much smaller than you're going to need.
 

He made rocket candy, which means you're setting yourself up to fail.  There's a very serious group that's been trying to get enough performance out of rocket candy to fly to space on a suborbital trajectory, they've been at it for over a decade now without succeeding.

No offence, but you really need to learn to crawl first.

the electronics will be hard because we have to code the Arduinos our selves and figure out how to keep power and data to it.

I am not making rocket candy for the actual rocket I am making test rockets for them.

the real SRF will be of a higher Isp

1 minute ago, Spaceception said:

Upgrade to a blast proof window. That way you can see what's going on, and be protected at the same time, also figure out the minimum safe distances of explosions before you test, this depends on how big your rocket is, so double and triple check your numbers before testing.

15 meters and use the old duck and cover method.

I will build a box later when I have electrical components ready for manual ignition

I have old launcher box from old estes rocket so I will use that right now

[Spaceception]

3 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

15 meters and use the old duck and cover method.

I will build a box later when I have electrical components ready for manual ignition

I have old launcher box from old estes rocket so I will use that right now

If you can't see the rocket, how're you supposed to know what to fix if there's an explosion? Do you have high-speed camera's?

[alpha tech]

if there is an explosion I will hear it and cover and if it launches I will watch it.

I don't have a video camera . photo only

[Kerbart]

14 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

I live near the lake, so I was wanting to use my surroundings as much as I can and landing it in the water seems pretty obvious but I need a way to talk to it thru GPS. or satellite. but if I use Arduino and make a PGNS and a AGC I can get predictions where it will land but nothing more than that because It will be automated the whole flight and that is something that I want and don't at the same time.

Getting a GPS that works at the velocities and altitudes that you want to achieve requires an ITAR license. Sure, you're not exporting it. But if you want a weapons-grade GPS (and that's what you want) you'll need that license. Or work on a guidance system that doesn't require a GPS.

Finding a launching location will not be trivial though. Both the Tripoli Rocket Association and the National Association of Rocketry do not approve of guidance systems (they'd like to keep three-letter organizations and extensive legislation out of the hobby, so they self-regulate), so you'll have to find launching grounds outside them.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Kerbart

[Spaceception]

Just now, alpha tech said:

if there is an explosion I will hear it and cover and if it launches I will watch it.

I don't have a video camera . photo only

When you can, get a high-speed camera perhaps with thermal imagery as well, that way you can see everything that's going on that the human eye can't see, you can observe thrust curves, and make it more stable, and you can study the temperature of the rocket, so you know if there's not enough, enough, or more than enough material. A lot of rocket explosions happen due to structural failures, and overheating components, having a H-S T camera can allow you to build a more efficient rocket. And since this is homemade, you want it to be as efficient as possible.

[Steel]

1 hour ago, alpha tech said:

Ok back on topic.

these certain safety measures have been taken

1. Safety glasses/ wielding helmets/goggles/aprons  

2. Respirator, and all other stuff I may or may not have can be acquired a the nearest harbor freight tool store  

3. 55 gallon oil drum to hide behind (may upgrade later)

4 and a test pit. (currently in construction).

 

ok so

The Liquid Fuel engine

How Much Thrust do I need it to produce?

How hot will the gas be.

What kind of alloy do I need.

Get as much Isp as I can.

Figure an ignition solution.

Thrust vectoring, gimbal,  

making the Tanks for fuel and oxidizer

I will be making regular solid rockets to get the gyros and electrical components right.

the electrical components will be the most difficult thing to get to work

 

 

26 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

well I pretty much had all of that

I haven't launched anything yet. I need  a basic design for a test model that is solid and needs to incorporate the following things.

thrust vectoring or gimbal (what is the difference between them?)

Fin control

and guidance for electronics testing.

I've watched the king of random and I'm going to make the solid fuel he made

Scott had info on how you ignite your engine by hypergolic fuel in the pre burner,

So a lot of these have been answered above, but on the subject of gimaballing, it's a really complex thing to try and do. Trying to keep the engine bell attached and not melted if it's part of the combustion chamber will be hard enough, gimballing not only add problems in that department but also numerous extra points of failure as well as having to add a large and well insulated hydraulics system to you rocket. In terms of control you're better off going with fin stabilisation and some clever flight planning. The JAXA mission I mentioned earlier has NO ACTIVE GUIDANCE (i.e no movable fins, no gimbal, no thrust vectoring) onboard, it just uses spin stabilisation and pressesion about it's long axis to get into orbit

For liquid rockets, you're looking at combustion temperature ranges in the 1000s of degrees, far above the melting point of almost any metal (unless you're willing to splash out on some horrendously expensive high temperature alloys of titanium or similar (all dependent on your choice of proppellant) your choice to keep the nozzle from melting are to make it out of an ablative material (essentially like a heat shield), to cool it by pumping fuel or some other fluid through the engine bell (hugely complex and potentially very dangerous if not designed properly), or to fire the engine for such a short time that the nozzle doesn't overheat.

The thrust you need is entirely dependent on your weight at launch, but you're looking at kN ranges. I have no idea how you would go about using a turbopump rocket engine without 10s, if not 100s of engineers, so you'd be far far far far far better off with a pressure fed system (emptying a tank of inert gas forces propellants into the engine, rather than a horrendously complex piece of turbomachinary moving at over 100,000 RPM)

 

[alpha tech]

3 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

When you can, get a high-speed camera perhaps with thermal imagery as well, that way you can see everything that's going on that the human eye can't see, you can observe thrust curves, and make it more stable, and you can study the temperature of the rocket, so you know if there's not enough, enough, or more than enough material. A lot of rocket explosions happen due to structural failures, and overheating components, having a H-S T camera can allow you to build a more efficient rocket. And since this is homemade, you want it to be as efficient as possible.

Raspberry Pi's have a NOIR camera that has no IR filter so it sees the thermal image.

I also need sensor and data dump on the Arduino's

 

 

[Spaceception]

Just now, alpha tech said:

Raspberry Pi's have a NOIR camera that has no IR filter so it sees the thermal image.

I also need sensor and data dump on the Arduino's

That's a good start.

Also, some comments I made a couple days ago:

I recommend you take a look at some of these rockets, and base your design on them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-lift_launch_vehicle

Particularly this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_4S As it's probably close to the size that you will be building.

By the way, how many people are working with you? What's your gameplan/milestone calendar, how much money have you put towards it so far, and what's your progress?

[alpha tech]

4 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

That's a good start.

Also, some comments I made a couple days ago:

I recommend you take a look at some of these rockets, and base your design on them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-lift_launch_vehicle

Particularly this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_4S As it's probably close to the size that you will be building.

By the way, how many people are working with you? What's your gameplan/milestone calendar, how much money have you put towards it so far, and what's your progress?

Me and my brother and maybe one other person.

1st plan is to build a rocket that will get to space

then based on how well it goes we will start for orbit.

none yet.

 

 

the lambda is a 26 kilo launcher I want a 5 kilo launcher for like a CubeSat of some kind .

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by alpha tech

[Spaceception]

9 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

Me and my brother and maybe one other person.

1st plan is to build a rocket that will get to space

then based on how well it goes we will start for orbit.

none yet.

Okay, do you have any machinery that can assist you guys? Are you planning on adding anyone else? Orbital rockets will weigh a EDIT minimum of 9 tonnes.

Start slow, build smaller rockets and work your way up, learn to walk before you run.

See above.

Okay, I assume that's on the engineering side, what about licenses and regulations? What's your progress on that? How much research have you done? Have you spoken to anyone who's built rockets for a living? The KSP forums don't count. Talk to actual rocket scientists.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Spaceception

[alpha tech]

6 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

Okay, do you have any machinery that can assist you guys? Are you planning on adding anyone else? Orbital rockets will weigh thousands of tonnes.

Start slow, build smaller rockets and work your way up, learn to walk before you run.

See above.

Okay, I assume that's on the engineering side, what about licenses and regulations? What's your progress on that? How much research have you done? Have you spoken to anyone who's built rockets for a living? The KSP forums don't count. Talk to actual rocket scientists.

We have a lathe, drill press, saws, MIG/Flux, and ARC welding, Oxyacetylene, cutting and wielding, Plasma cutting, band saws, sawmill, chainsaws, and etc.

and that is why we are making the test models for the flight data and computers.

Only if the revenue man will get me for making moonshine. and still haven't figured that out.

I've met Charles duke Jr. and he talked about the Apollo spacecraft that he was in. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by alpha tech

[Steel]

1 minute ago, alpha tech said:

I've met Charles duke Jr. and he talked about the Apollo spacecraft that he was in. 

While Charlie Duke is undoubtedly a cool guy, he almost certainly couldn't build a rocket anywhere near as well as he could fly one

[alpha tech]

the first test are going to start with some unguided Solid rockets with parachutes.

does the srf get as hot as the liquid fuel.

Edited February 21, 2017 by alpha tech