totm nov 2023 SpaceX Discussion Thread

[Bill Phil]

1 hour ago, Canopus said:

Imagine you have an Apollo 13 style accident anytime after leaving LEO. There is no hope of ever attaining earth orbit again and free return is impossible since you aren't carrying a reentry capsule with you. The Dragon back at earth won't save you.

Simple, but expensive, solution: bring more ships.

[GoSlash27]

7 hours ago, tater said:

 

thanks beaurocratic nonsesne!

Some pencil- pusher either doesn't know the difference between a KH-11 spysat and a GoPro or knows but doesn't care because "regulations".

I really hope this tweet is correct and it won't be a problem going forward.

Best,
-Slashy

[sevenperforce]

21 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Simple, but expensive, solution: bring more ships.

Methalox is a good choice for Mars because you can eventually make your own methane on Mars.

Hydrolox is a good choice for the Moon because water ice is about the only thing you can hope to get.

A good solution for the Moon...particularly because it's quite nearby...is to leverage hydrolox's ridiculously good isp to get single-stage orbit-to-surface-to-orbit cyclers, shipping hydrolox tankers from Earth to refuel for now, and enabling surface ISRU refuel later on down the road.

[PB666]

1 hour ago, sevenperforce said:

Methalox is a good choice for Mars because you can eventually make your own methane on Mars.

Hydrolox is a good choice for the Moon because water ice is about the only thing you can hope to get.

A good solution for the Moon...particularly because it's quite nearby...is to leverage hydrolox's ridiculously good isp to get single-stage orbit-to-surface-to-orbit cyclers, shipping hydrolox tankers from Earth to refuel for now, and enabling surface ISRU refuel later on down the road.

My gut feeling is that fueling spacecraft from ISRU is more than 50 years in the future, either moon or mars. I think we are being way optimistic here, we don't even have an active presence on the moon, And I would think you wouldn't want to waste very valuable moon water on a extremely costly thing like trying to reach lunar orbit.

If they can just find a way to keep hydrogen that they get to the moon stable, that would be a huge leap right there.

For example a budget way to get hydrogen to LEO (SpaceX can do that, if they prioritize a PL fuel transport system)  . . .they may even opt to use hydrolox themselves on their second stage.

And then some sort of shipper than can ship it to the moon or some DSG
That would be a huge step forward right there.

The methane deal on mars, you have to have water to make hydrogen, and water is in short supply, at least in the near term.

 

[DAL59]

Is there an anti-camera lobby or something?

Info on license:

Quote

License Application Process

Initial Contact with NOAA

NOAA CRSRA strongly encourages potential applicants to review and file an Initial Contact Form to help NOAA assess whether a full license application would be required for a proposed satellite system. This form is optional and used for informational purposes only and is considered non-binding. If any information included on this form is considered by a potential applicant to be confidential or proprietary, the applicant must indicate this when submitting it to NOAA CRSRA. You can find the Initial Contact Form on this website under the "Resources" tab to the left or simply contact CRSRA at [email protected] for more information.

15 CFR Part 960.4 states:

No person subject to the jurisdiction and/or control of the United States may operate a private remote sensing space system without a license issued pursuant to this part.

• Filing instructions, as well as a list of information to be included in the license application, are included in Appendix 1 of this part.
• If information in an application becomes inaccurate or incomplete prior to issuance of the license, the applicant must, within 14 days, file the new or corrected information with the Assistant Administrator. If new or revised information is filed during the application process, the Assistant Administrator shall, within fourteen (14) days, determine whether the deadline imposed by Section 201(c) of the Act and Sec. 960.6(a) must be extended to allow adequate review of the revised application and, if so, for how long.

15 CFR Section 960 Appendix 1:

Filing Instructions and Information To Be Included in the Licensing Application

Prospective applicants are encouraged to contact NOAA for a non-binding pre-consultation prior to filing an application or other licensing actions. Initial Contact Form

• Where to file. Applications and all related documents shall be filed with the Assistant Administrator, National Environmental Satellite, Data and Information Service (NESDIS), NOAA, Department of Commerce, 1335 East West Highway, Silver Spring, Maryland 20910.
• Form. No particular form is required but each application must be in writing, must include all of the information specified in this subpart, and must be signed by an authorized principal executive officer. In addition, applicants must submit a copy on electronic media using commonly-available commercial word processing software.
• Number of copies. One (1) copy of each application must be submitted in a readily reproducible form accompanied by a copy on electronic media.
• The following information shall be filed by the applicant in order to evaluate its suitability to hold a private remote sensing space system license. Data provided regarding the applicant's proposed remote sensing space system must be in sufficient detail to enable the Secretary to determine whether the proposal meets requirements of the Act.

Sec. I Corporate Information

1. The name, street address and mailing address, telephone number and citizenship(s) of (as applicable):
   • Applicant as well as any affiliates or subsidiaries;
   • Chief executive officer of the applicant and each director;
   • Each general corporation partner;
   • All executive personnel or senior management of a partnership;
   • Any directors, partners, executive personnel or senior management who hold positions with or serve as consultants for any foreign nation or person;
   • Each domestic beneficial owner of an interest equal to or greater than 10 percent in the applicant;
   • Each foreign owner of an interest equal to or greater than 5 percent in the applicant;
   • Each foreign lender and amount of debt where foreign indebtedness exceeds 25 percent of an applicant's total indebtedness;
   • A person upon who service of all documents may be made.
2. A description of any significant or substantial agreements between the applicant, its affiliates and subsidiaries, with foreign nation or person, including copies if available;
3. A copy of the charter or other authorizing instrument certified by the jurisdiction in which the applicant is incorporated or organized and authorized to do business.

Sec. II Launch Segment Information

Provide the characteristics of the launch segment to include:

1. Proposed launch schedule;
2. Proposed launch vehicle source;
3. Proposed launch site;
4. Anticipated operational date;
5. The range of orbits and altitudes (nominal apogee and perigee);
6. Inclination angle;
7. Orbital period.

Sec. III Space Segment

1. The name of the system and the number of satellites which will compose this system;
2. Technical space system information at the level of detail typical of a request for proposal specification (including sensor type; spatial and spectral resolution; pointing parameters, etc.);
3. Anticipated best theoretical resolution (show calculation);
4. Swath width of each sensor (typically at nadir);
5. The various fields of view for each sensor (IFOV, in-track, cross-track);
6. On-board storage capacity;
7. Navigation capabilities -- GPS, star tracker accuracies;
8. Time-delayed integration with focal plane;
9. Oversampling capability;
10. Image motion parameters -- linear motion, drift; aggregation modes;
11. Anticipated system lifetime.

Sec. IV Ground Segment

1. The system data collection and processing capabilities proposed including but not limited to: Tasking procedures; scheduling plans; data format (downlinked and distributed data); timeliness of delivery; ground segment information regarding the location of proposed operations centers and stations, and tasking, telemetry and control; data distribution and archiving plans;
2. The command (uplink and downlink) and mission data (downlink) transmission frequencies and system transmission (uplink and downlink) footprint, the downlink data rate, any plans for communications crosslinks;
3. The plans for protection of uplink, downlink and any data links;
4. The methods applicant will use to ensure the integrity of its operations, including plans for: Positive control of the remote sensing space system and relevant operations centers and stations; denial of unauthorized access to data transmissions to or from the remote sensing space system; and restriction of collection and/or distribution of unenhanced data from specific areas at the request of the U.S. Government.

Sec. V Other Information

• The applicant's plans for providing access to or distributing the unenhanced data generated by the system including:
  1. A description of the plan for the sale and distribution of such data;
  2. The method for making the data available to governments whose territories have been sensed;
  3. A description of the plans for making data requested and purchased by the Department of the Interior available to the National Satellite Land Remote Sensing Data Archive for inclusion in the basic data set; and
  4. The licensee's plans to make the data available for non-commercial scientific, educational, or other public benefit purposes, such as the study of the changing global environment.
• If the applicant is proposing to follow a commercial data distribution and pricing policy as provided for by Sec. 960.12, the application shall include the following additional financial information:
  1. The extent of the private investment in the system;
  2. The extent of any direct funding or other direct assistance which the applicant or its affiliates or subsidiaries have received or anticipate receiving from any agency of the U.S. Government for the development, fabrication, launch, or operation of the system including direct financial support, loan guarantees, or the use of U.S. Government equipment or services;
  3. Any existing or anticipated contract(s) between the applicant, affiliate, or subsidiary and U.S. Government agencies for the purchase of data, information, or services from the proposed system;
  4. Any other relationship between the applicant, affiliate, or subsidiary and the U.S. Government which has supported the development, fabrication, launch, or operation of the system; and
  5. Any plans to provide preferred or exclusive access to the unenhanced data to any particular user or class of users.
• The applicant will submit a plan for post-mission disposition of any remote-sensing satellites owned or operated by the applicant. If the satellite disposition involves an atmospheric re-entry the applicant must provide an estimate of the total debris casualty area of the system's components and structure likely to survive re-entry.

 

[CatastrophicFailure]

What a great big steaming load of... methane. 

I'm still kinda floored that NOAA is the acting regulatory agency here. Why did this only become an issue now, 50-some launches later? Methinks someone’s hand is in someone’s pocket. 

[CatastrophicFailure]

Sooooo....

After musing on this regulatory rigmarole all day, "YOUR MOM'S HOUSE" now makes perfect sense. 

[Rakaydos]

So, apparently this NOAA regulation was written in 1990! There's a bill in house comittiee that (among other commercial spaceflight related things) fixes it, but this may well have been a publicity stunt to bring attention to that bill.

[Technical Ben]

15 hours ago, Wjolcz said:

What's the point of Moon Station anyway? I haven't questioned it until I read the article. More radiation? Newer technology?

If the answer is more radiation why not use more shielding? If it's the technology: I thought humans have landed there already?

It just feels like it's a step back not forward. And I know it's about staying there for longer than 2 days but then: why not bury the base in regolith?

It is closer. While the DV budget is not that much different. It is closer. If you get a problem, but have a fleet (as they are planning) of Falcon9s/10s or BFGs, then you can get there within 3 days to sort it.

 

After that, you know what you need/problems that needs supplies and can prepare. As Mars takes a little bit longer if you land, and realise the life span of equipment needed for life support is 3 months, and resupply is 9!

 

I wonder if they could transport hydrogen and oxygen in something like a solid sugar, and process on site? A solid, so easier to store/move than a liquid/gas?

Edited March 31, 2018 by Technical Ben

[KSK]

12 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

What a great big steaming load of... methane. 

I'm still kinda floored that NOAA is the acting regulatory agency here. Why did this only become an issue now, 50-some launches later? Methinks someone’s hand is in someone’s pocket. 

Nah - for my money it's just plain old bureaucracy. Speaking as a former faceless bureaucrat and someone who deals with 'em on a regular basis - never underestimate the stopping power of a jobsworth with an out of date rulebook that almost-but-not-quite covers the situation at hand.

[wumpus]

15 hours ago, DAL59 said:

Is there an anti-camera lobby or something?

Info on license:

In the US, yes.  And in some very different ways.

*There were enough stories in a row of cops confiscating cameras containing evidence of the cops' crimes that state laws were enacting prohibiting this.
* Photographing a farm [from public property] may be illegal in certain states [or illegal while there for other reasons']
* Photographers have been hassled for photographing public buildings.  I haven't heard this in a while, presumably anyone casing a crime uses a less obvious phone camera (google hits everything else but this).

Mostly this about sufficiently powerful people (especially cops) not having their word questioned by pesky things like physical evidence.  I have no idea why this would be an issue in space.  Perhaps they want to make sure the "blurred out bits" stay blurred out (insert conspiracy theory about editing parts without blurring them).

[Nightfury]

4 hours ago, Technical Ben said:

I wonder if they could transport hydrogen and oxygen in something like a solid sugar, and process on site? A solid, so easier to store/move than a liquid/gas?

Easier to transport , yes.

But the problem is making/keeping it solid , because of the veery low temperatures (below 14K for Hydrogen , below 54K for Oxygen)

You would need pretty advanced cooling systems for that long time, besides this it would indeed make things easier.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Nightfury

[Rakaydos]

4 minutes ago, Nightfury said:

Easier to transport , yes.

But the problem is making/keeping it solid , because of the veery low temperatures (below 14K for Hydrogen , below 54K for Oxygen)

You would need pretty advanced cooling systems for that long time, besides this it would indeed make things easier.

I think he's talking about minerals, not ices.

[Nightfury]

3 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

I think he's talking about minerals, not ices.

Haven't thought of that

How this should be done? (Have no clue how this could work)

 

[Elthy]

Whats the compound with the highest mass ratio of hydrogen? Everything i can think of is realy, realy awfull, even methane is only 1/4th hydrogen by mass.

[Rakaydos]

Polyurithane? Polystyrine?

[KSK]

Methane isn't actually that bad. Ammonia would be another option but with a lower mass ratio of hydrogen. You could go a bit earlier in the Periodic Table but I wouldn't fancy parking large amounts of lithium, beryllium or boron hydrides on top of a rocket. Getting the hydrogen back out again without contracting a severe case of Kessler Syndrome is no picnic either. 

Storing large amounts of hydrogen at something approaching room temperature and pressure is tricky. It's one reason why fuel cell powered vehicles never really took off in a big way. Wikipedia has a decent summary for the interested - or at least it looks like a decent summary to me. Count me as an informed layperson here rather than an expert - my degree is in chemistry so I have some background but... I got my degree the best part of two decades ago.

[NSEP]

One of the best thing i heard about to this whole NOAA madness, is that it is giving Flat Earther ammunition to spread their disease. I can't agree more. I can't wait to see how many new members the Flat Earth society will get.

[hms_warrior]

Forget about Hydrolox for moon isru.

Go with aluminium powder and LOX. ISP around 260, very easy to store (at least the al ) and easy to manufacture everywhere on the moon.

Basicly the dirt on the moon is made out of massive ammounts of aluminium-oxide. Heat it with some hydrogen, you get water and pure aluminium. Split the water back into hydrogen and oxigen.

Use the hydrogen for the next batch of moondirt and the aluminium and oxygen for a hybrid rocket.

[DAL59]

3 hours ago, NSEP said:

I can't wait to see how many new members the Flat Earth society will get.

They'll get new members from all around the globe.

[DAL59]

ELON MUSK JUST GAVE A SPEECH REVEALING CHANGES TO THE BFR HES ADDING A NERVA!

https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by DAL59

[Ultimate Steve]

54 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

ELON MUSK JUST GAVE A SPEECH REVEALING CHANGES TO THE BFR HES ADDING A NERVA!

https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

I was in the middle of watching Spider-Man: Homecoming at the biggest twist when it got so akward I had to go over to my computer to check something. I had this notification and had a crisis - do I stop watching the first movie I've enjoyed in a long time or watch this exciting groundbreaking development?

It was a hard decision and I chose the latter. I mentally prepare myself to miss part of the movie.

I hated you for a second, but now I truly realize - Elon Musk is never gonna give up on BFR.

[IncongruousGoat]

On 3/30/2018 at 8:29 PM, PB666 said:

The methane deal on mars, you have to have water to make hydrogen, and water is in short supply, at least in the near term.

That's not strictly true. Mars may be described as a desert, but there's a surprisingly large amount of easily accessible water ice to be found. This isn't like lunar ice either, which needs to be baked out of the regolith it's found in. The evidence we have points to Martian subsurface ice being relatively pure.

Non-trivial to extract, sure, but not terribly difficult either.

[cubinator]

12 hours ago, DAL59 said:

dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

goddammit

[Canopus]

10 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

That's not strictly true. Mars may be described as a desert, but there's a surprisingly large amount of easily accessible water ice to be found. This isn't like lunar ice either, which needs to be baked out of the regolith it's found in. The evidence we have points to Martian subsurface ice being relatively pure.

Non-trivial to extract, sure, but not terribly difficult either.

On the other hand, the energy to get the water out of the regolith is more plentiful on the moon. And, as far as your body is concerned, both places are just as deadly to you.