The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.3.x - 1.10.x [re-booted]

[MinimalMinmus]

14 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

I'm just going to allow all tech from green meanie monoliths. There is no way to control what nodes you end up with, so there is a good possibility that you could end up with a useless tech node. In addition, most green meanie monoliths are very difficult to even reach let alone locate with low tech probe cores. (A Caveman's best core, the Probodyne OKTO only has a 6% detection chance, the lowest of any core in the game) By far the easiest to get are the monoliths on Minmus and Gilly, because both moons are relatively small and have no other anomalies. Kerbin and the Mun's green meanie monoliths are extremely difficult to find because they are mixed in with many other anomalies and both celestial bodies are quite large. It's literally looking for a needle in a haystack trying to locate them with low-tech probe cores. That leaves only one "easily" accessible green monolith; the one on Minmus. All others either require a huge amount of effort to find or an inter-planetary transfer with no manuever nodes. If you can find it, go for it.

P.S. I triumphed over the forum glitch and managed to update the leader-board. 

The only 2 160 nodes that are really good to have are precision engineering (HECS and RA-2) and advanced electrics (better batteries and panels)

It would, however, become borderline gamebreaker if, building on those 2 nodes, you reach the RA-15 (which makes probes viable), OKTO2 (arguably the best probe core), or Scanning Tech (the seismometer). Of course, that would be quite rare.

 

Shower thought: there are 15 green monoliths in the game, which is theorically enough to unlock the entire t6.

[rSSSfeed]

Gonna start a run here to shake up my playstyle a bit. I've been getting a bit too used to the upsize everything way of life, and its getting a bit stale when my solutions to everything is to slap more fuel tanks and engines on.

Going to go with just hard mode (topaz) for this, since my last (and only) career was just normal. I tried jumping into the Nanocrystaline Diamond one for a bit, and immediately stumbled on the shocking lack of funds.

I haven't been keeping track of progress very closely, so screenshots were taken after the whole 1 hour session. 

 

Flight one was the simple Flea jump, but the model got updated with a few other instruments later on. I'm still surprised by how short ranged this thing is. I couldnt make it to the grasslands immediately west of the launchpad with my sloppy flying.

Models 2 and 3 are upsizing the same thing, clearing a few small missions here and there. 3 made space, but I failed my intended target of flying to the deserts. Instead it went too straight up and splashed into the ocean short of the deserts.

4 was... yet another failure. This one should have had enough dv to orbit, but without tail fins, the rocket went straight up instead of doing my gravity turn and I lacked the thrust using the Terrier to pick up enough orbital speed.

So, current state now. Very interested to take aviation next for control surfaces, and the potential for crafting a jet powered rover to scoot around KSC. 

[Mr. Peabody]

10 hours ago, rSSSfeed said:

<snip>

Looks great! You need to get rid of KER immediately though. It is a specifically disallowed mod.

[rSSSfeed]

10 minutes ago, The Dunatian said:

Looks great! You need to get rid of KER immediately though. It is a specifically disallowed mod.

Oops. Ok, will be gone for future builds.

 

Jeb is... gone. This plane I was testing for contract clearing was struggling to gain AoA on liftoff. I tugged too hard on the pitch controls, and a tailstrike on the runway caused a pretty rapid RUD. RIP

[MinimalMinmus]

I think I may try my luck again at NCD soon, I have gotten inspired by @IncongruousGoat's attempt.

[MinimalMinmus]

Is "WorldStabilizer" allowed? It's more or less a bugfix for the "Vessel jumps when loaded again" glitch.

[Rakaydos]

I did this without documentig it, entirely in the Kerbin subsystem on normal.  Is there a separate challange for Beyond Kerbin SoI Caveman?

 

[IncongruousGoat]

5 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

I did this without documentig it, entirely in the Kerbin subsystem on normal.  Is there a separate challange for Beyond Kerbin SoI Caveman?

Well, there's the Order of the Trilobite, which is given for anything above and beyond, interplanetary travel included. The thing is, for most Caveman runs, there isn't a good reason to go to another planet, other than it being really impressive. The only difficulty level where it's strictly necessary to go interplanetary is Nanocrystalline Diamond, but I don't think that's quite what you're looking for.

[MinimalMinmus]

Well...

Fail #2: I ran out of money like an idiot after getting the first tech node.

[Mr. Peabody]

2 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Is "WorldStabilizer" allowed? It's more or less a bugfix for the "Vessel jumps when loaded again" glitch.

It's only a bugfix and doesn't affect gameplay. Go ahead and use it if you need to. 

2 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

I did this without documenting it, entirely in the Kerbin sub-system on normal. Is there a separate challange for Beyond Kerbin SoI Caveman?

There is no real reason to leave Kerbin's SOI in a difficulty level below Topaz. Visiting another planet's SOI will get you the "Order of the Trilobite" though. The trouble is it is very difficult to perform a transfer to another planet without any manuever nodes. If a ripoff similar challenge were started for that, I'm afraid there would be very few entries. In addition, it would be like starting a spin-off of the jool-5 challenge for users who only landed on Bop.

If you are interested in trying a harder difficulty level, take screenshots documenting your attempt and I will be able to add you to the cave wall. 

[Muetdhiver]

Actually while direct interplanetary  transfers are indeed very difficult (I'd say borderline impossible with the exception of duna), transfers with corrections over several orbits are not especially difficult.

Once I get this damnable lawn built jool rocket built I'll document the steps. Though for jool I'm trying to find a way to do it faster if possible. 

[MinimalMinmus]

Fail #3: "Well, it works when I test it" (famous last words)

[Muetdhiver]

So. After hours of fiddling and some caveman SSTO fun things, I finally got to lawn build a rocket with caveman tech.

It was not easy, and I messed up the design, meaning the the whole lauch was a near failure (First stage : not enough fuel, second stage too soon, too heavy and not enough TWR). I wasted way too much fuel on the ascent, and gravity turn was so bad Valentina cried. Anyhow. It's in orbit and it still has 4060 m/s of DV. Clearly not enough for Jool with safety margins, but enough for either : Duna, Eve, Minmus Greenolith search or kerbin grav assist test with the aim of preparing for jool.

Note that I could also send a second rocket with a fuel / booster stage and go for a small scope Jool mission. Which should I do ?

Spoiler

Assembly Process. Slowly.

In orbit after an atrocious launch with a faulty design. Wobbly as hell too. Quite the wienerli rocket.

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Muetdhiver

[ManEatingApe]

51 minutes ago, Muetdhiver said:

Note that I could also send a second rocket with a fuel / booster stage and go for a small scope Jool mission. Which should I do ?

Nice work on the lawn assembly. Jool gets my enthusiastic vote - I can't recall any Kerballed mission there in any Caveman thread (since 1.0.4 era) so you'd be the first.

Edited June 3, 2018 by ManEatingApe

[Rakaydos]

On 5/28/2018 at 11:20 AM, ManEatingApe said:

I'd love to see a Caveman/Jool-5 combo, as it would combine the 2 longest running most popular challenges.

(as well as being insanely difficult)

Do it! It's a lot of fun, tweaking it just right...

...and it goes wrong very entertainingly 

I've designed a "simple" 3 launch, 3 stage lifter that can put a full (short) 2.5m tank into orbit, with connections to link with a poodle that can reach orbit in the 2 stage version of the lifter.

Actually looks fairly similar to Mue's design, though I use Wheelslys and landing gear instead or rover wheels.

 

I've also got an eye on Jool, but without Kerbal Engineer, designing landers will be rather hit or miss...

[ManEatingApe]

6 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

I've designed a "simple" 3 launch, 3 stage lifter that can put a full (short) 2.5m tank into orbit, with connections to link with a poodle that can reach orbit in the 2 stage version of the lifter.

Great to see all the Caveman ingenuity!

[Rakaydos]

...I have, in my head, a brilliant idea for a Caveman Tylo Lander. I need to run numbers to see if it actually makes sence.

So, Tylo is easier to launch from than Kerbin. And a Reliant- based kerbin SSTO can work with 14 small tanks, a capsule and a chute (.9 tons payload)- that's 8.775 tons wet mass (other than the engine) with 630 units of liquidfuel.

I have a reliant-launchable "fuel pod" design that's 2.548 tons wet mass with 200 units of liquidfuel, that can be stacked in series, and even includes a crossfeed-allowed decoupler for easy staging after orbital assembily, as long as it's attached either laterally or tractor style to fall away without causing problems.

And I have a "scaffording" subassembily that, if it works as intended (testing ongoing) can keep engines on different sections pointed the same way, for .595 tons drymass per segment. (Launched on end in a fairing) (Also, the scaffolding itself includes decouplers for the end attachpoints, allowing staging off entire sections once they've served their purpose, but that's for jool mothership use)

Two reliants should be able to lift my standard science pod (1.410 tons, or less than 2 capsule+chutes), 3 scaffolds (1.785t), and 6 fuel pods (15.288t) from tylo (.8 G), with a reasonable reserve for orbital rendvous even without staging. (18.483 tons without engines, or 20.983t with engines producing 480 kn thrust) Making them Poodles gives much better ISP on tylo at the cost of some extra dry mass- 1.95 tons per engine with my existing poodle subassembily vs 1.27 tons per engine for just a reliant+docking port.

If scaffolding assembily works, this should be able to lift from tylo easilly. Then it's a matter of landing it on tylo, a kerbin return rocket,  mothership to get it to Jool, and figuring out how many assembily launches are needed for the mission overall.

[Muetdhiver]

Nice idea. But it does seem heavy, especially because landing on Tylo is the hard part. My lander / return rocket weights 25 tons, but the return part is only 6.5 tons. If your return part is 20 tons, the lander will be very heavy, meaning the jool ship will be really, really heavy. Which is a problem with Jr Ports. My estimate for a caveman jool5 is a ship of 225 tons. Less in making history due to the OP Wolfhound.

I have made some calculations, and it seems that I can add 2300 m/s of DV to the ship I already have in LKO. That will push things over 6300 m/s overall DV which should (?) be enough for a Jool return mission. The only problem is braking in the jool system without patched conics. I feel that aerocapture might be a bit suicidal (?) given the velocities involved*. OTOH, if I remember right, gravity braking capture is doable with Tylo, The only problem being getting an encounter,

Short of solving the lambert problem, I can't see a "clever" caveman way of doing it. (though I can still make a Jool flyby as a first expedition)

*Has anyone some experience with Jool aerobraking without inflatable shields ?

[Rakaydos]

2 hours ago, Muetdhiver said:

Nice idea. But it does seem heavy, especially because landing on Tylo is the hard part. My lander / return rocket weights 25 tons, but the return part is only 6.5 tons. If your return part is 20 tons, the lander will be very heavy, meaning the jool ship will be really, really heavy. Which is a problem with Jr Ports. My estimate for a caveman jool5 is a ship of 225 tons. Less in making history due to the OP Wolfhound.

Yea, I took my prototype over to a sandbox file and cheet menued it over to tylo orbit--  tank stacking vertically is too floppy, and even sideways really caps out at 2 tanks before floppyness of the scaffold limits your throttle.

Part of the problem is reusing the Material-bay equipped Science pod for the payload, as science equipment nearly doubles payload weight. If I aim for the Jool 5 Level 1 challance, without science return and just use a lander can... but that doesnt help floppyness issues.

I built the scaffold to allow tractor-style designs, but I'd need more scaffold to do it with the crew pod hanging down (to allow notional asttronaut deployment and recovery on Tylo and Laythe)

 

Concerning Jool Capture, my initial thought was tuning the time-to-periapes to probably intercept tylo, but we dont have that in caveman. A low jool oberth burn needs abou 200 m/s  (160 m/s officially) to capture from earth- about 550 total to get down to a tylo-crossing orbit, and another 1100 to get to (and again to get out of) a 10 KM parking orbit.

[Muetdhiver]

I made a second launch with a much improved lower stage (2 additional thuds). However, it's terribly wobbly and it seems to me that the wobblyness of the wienerli rocket causes a lot of loss from drag. This seriously hampers the efficiency of the rocket overall. The lower stage higher TWR makes things worse, and it looks to me that TWR above 1.5 quickly becomes very problematic. Also, any attempt at starting the gravity turn early is a recipe for near deconstruction experiences.

@ManEatingApe : Have you had the same issues with lawn built rockets ? Did you find ways to mitigate them ?

Still the rocket performs much better now. The upper stage still need some amount of work tough. I only need the engine section now. If I can put 4.5t of fuel with it, it should be enough.

Flight plan is as follow :

1. Mun grav assist (training ground), with aim at a 2 yr orbit returning to Kerbin
2. Atter 2 years, Kerbin encounter (hopefully) and grav assist for Jool.
3. Orbit correction if Jool is missed (will be)
4. Wait, Wait, Wait. Encounter. 200 m/s minimal capture.
5. Use grav assist(s) to get up to Pol or Bop with as many encounters as possible.
6. Bop or Pol landing.
7. Return burn to kerbin, corrections, wait and all that.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Muetdhiver

[ManEatingApe]

3 hours ago, Muetdhiver said:

@ManEatingApe : Have you had the same issues with lawn built rockets ? Did you find ways to mitigate them ?

I found anything over 2 sections tall to be unmanageably wobbly, so to mitigate I built out sideways instead. Even then it was touch and go!

Any kind of gravity turn was out of the question - I simply burned straight up until the side boosters were empty.

One nice thing is that the docking ports can be re-staged as decouplers, saving a few parts.

Things got calmer with the second stage

This design manages to put about 11 tons into LKO.

Full construction album link

[MinimalMinmus]

"Doing a caveman Jool-V" would pretty much be a next-tier Trilobite. What's my flyby of Duna to a landing on Tylo?

Now for the 1,000,000 question: is it possible to achieve a Eve landing with caveman tech?

[Mr. Peabody]

1 hour ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Now for the 1,000,000 question: is it possible to achieve a Eve landing with caveman tech?

Surely not. It's hard enough with aerospike engines.

[Muetdhiver]

TBH Caveman Eve landing / Jool V if at all possible would entice using a kraken spawning contraption of mighty proportions... and for eve, landing such contraption in one piece and then flying it back. Without advanced engines I really can't see it at all possible.

Anything with more than three 2.5m mains section joined with quadruple Jr ports can't be turned under thrust. This means that to go bigger one would have to dock stuff radialy. Which may cause load balancing issues and even more wienerli behaviour. If I can do a bop or pol landing I'll be more than happy already. And assembling a 100 - 200t vessel required for a Jool V / Eve mission would require dozens of lawn built rockets, which causes all kind of funding issues in Diamond (As an example my Icy Mint Explorer is already putting me down 180K). It's already Eukariotic levels of crazy.

Anyhow. The Icy Mint Exploration vessel is now assembled. 4 Lawn-mower heavy rockets where used, which was far from an easy task. The Wet mass excluding the 2% fuel in the initial booster for the return vessel is about 28 tons. I haven't computed the DV so far. But it will be done prior to going ! As a note : A tylo lander would be at least 30t. Which means that the launch vessel would be in the 100+ tons range. I can't see it done either. It would have to lauch dozens of Lawn-mowers to do that.

Spoiler

The Two large tanks are 98% empty and will be used and ditched before the main burn.

Edit : DV with optimal staging will be 7500 m/s. Neat. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Muetdhiver

[Rakaydos]

5 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

"Doing a caveman Jool-V" would pretty much be a next-tier Trilobite. What's my flyby of Duna to a landing on Tylo?

Now for the 1,000,000 question: is it possible to achieve a Eve landing with caveman tech?

Well, Landing is easier than a full mission.

I put together a prototype in sandbox that can reach tylo surface from orbit without breaking the capsule, but I lost the engines and didnt have the fuel to get back to orbit anyway. And assenbily in orbit would be all kinds of painful, with 9 of my scaffolds interlocking crosswise in a grid.

Eve landing would be easier than Duna, but eve return would be basically impossible... barring flat-launcher shenaigans.

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Rakaydos