help getting orbit, a second time.

[putnamto]

i litterally have no idea what im doing wrong, im trying to do the tourist orbit kerbin contract, and when i built the ship and flew it empty i had no problem making orbit and landing it.
then i sent two tourists with me, ran fine made orbit had almost half a tank of fuel left before my final stage and landing.

then, this is where i hit a block, i dont know what im doing wrong, its taking almost all of my fuel in all three stages just to make orbit, then i have none to get back to land
i feel like im doing it the exact same way as when i was successfull but i guess i was so excited when i was that im now missing something.

this is how(in my head) the first two succesful launches went

1, full throttle, turn on sas, launch.
2 fly straight up till ap is 70k or higher, kill engines and coast to ap, 
3 at 40k turn craft horizontal till i reach ap, at ap burn whats left in the outer fuel tanks, burn center stack till pe is 70 staging as fuel runs out.
4 do a victory lap, use remaining fuel to lower pe and land.

now heres how its going on my four previous failed attempts at doing the same thing, with the same craft.

1, full throttle, turn on sas, launch.
2 fly straight up till ap is 70k or higher, kill engines and coast to ap, 
3 at 40k turn craft horizontal till i reach ap, at ap burn whats left in the outer fuel tanks, burn center stack till pe is........thats the thing i completely run out of fuel before the pe reaches 70, or completely out right as it does.

heres a picture of my craft mech jeb and my staging



EDIT: ok, i got it this time, i think i did it right this time.

1. full throttle, sas, go
2. tilt ten degrees east, wait for ap to reach 70k
3. when ap reaches 70k kill engines and coast while following prograde marker. full throttle when prograde is at 20 degrees above the horizon. kill engines with pe is at 70k

that worked and i have a quarter tank of fuel left to de-orbit.

any beginners tips? ive been following a career tutorial up until this point and i seriously have no clue what im doing im just following directions.

i have a very basic grasp on orbital mechanics, and i can read the nav ball.....sorta. any help would be appreciated.

(this is my third try at career, ive done many flybys of mun/crash landings in my other attempted carreers but thats about as far as i get before i kill jeb and want to restart my file)

Edited January 21, 2018 by putnamto

[bewing]

Well, there are several suggestions we could make for changing your rocket so that it gets to orbit easier. It looks like your command pod has a blunt top, for example -- adding a parachute there will reduce drag so much that it will totally make up for the mass of the parachute. There are several other changes you could make.

The important concept that you need to learn next, in order to get your rockets to orbit efficiently (so the rockets have fuel left), is called a 'gravity turn'. The basic idea is that after you do that initial tilt off the pad, you want to follow the prograde marker on your way to orbit. Depending on your rocket design, you can sometimes do that by turning your SAS  off until your boosters are done. If you search the site for the phrase 'gravity turn' you will get a million matches, and learn more than you ever need to know about them. MechJeb can also fly a gravity turn for you, to show you what one looks like. In any case, after you've gotten your pilots to orbit once, they will learn how to fly a prograde lock for themselves, and that makes it a lot easier.

 

[Geonovast]

Personally I would move the fins to the center tanks so you retain them after ditching the boosters.  Should help with your stability in a gravity turn.

Also chuck the struts between the command pod and the crew cabin.  I know it looks like a weak connection, but you'll be fine.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Geonovast

[Human Person]

8 hours ago, putnamto said:

1, full throttle, turn on sas, launch.
2 fly straight up till ap is 70k or higher, kill engines and coast to ap, 
3 at 40k turn craft horizontal till i reach ap, at ap burn whats left in the outer fuel tanks, burn center stack till pe is 70 staging as fuel runs out.
4 do a victory lap, use remaining fuel to lower pe and land.

let me suggest a more efficient ascent profile that would work with your rocket.

1 as you did it

2 fly straight up at first (just the first few seconds of flight), do a little turn towards west, try to find a nice turning rate, so you hit the 45-degree mark at around 10km altitude. practise flying this arc so you can do it without deviating much from the prograde marker, set SAS to prograde 

3 do the rest as you did before

Edited January 21, 2018 by Physics Student

[putnamto]

2 hours ago, Physics Student said:

let me suggest a more efficient ascent profile that would work with your rocket.

1 as you did it

2 fly straight up at first (just the first few seconds of flight), do a little turn towards west, try to find a nice turning rate, so you hit the 45-degree mark at around 10km altitude. practise flying this arc so you can do it without deviating much from the prograde marker, set SAS to prograde 

3 do the rest as you did before

you do mean east right? 

if i work on the drag and aerodynamics should i be able to hi the 45 degree mark before 10km? when i have a successfull orbit with this craft i can only turn it to ten degrees at launch and then its unmoveable until atleast 35k-40k

 

Im  assuming  this  game  gets  easier? Ive  had  so  much  frustration  in  the  past  three  days, I've  read  a  book  and  a  half  of  research. Just  to  be  able  to  do  the  basics.

Edited January 21, 2018 by putnamto

[Geonovast]

3 hours ago, putnamto said:

Im  assuming  this  game  gets  easier? Ive  had  so  much  frustration  in  the  past  three  days, I've  read  a  book  and  a  half  of  research. Just  to  be  able  to  do  the  basics.

I have a suggestion for this.  Play sandbox for a little bit, where you have all the toys and no limits.  Once you've built a couple successful rockets and learned how to balance things, go back to your career save and try this guy again.

But before that:

I just duplicated your rocket the best I could, and managed to get it to a 99km x 93 km orbit fine with almost 800 m/s of dV left.  I did notice one thing that threw me off when I was staging - you don't appear to have the center engine (I believe it's a swivel and the boosters are reliants?) burning at launch.  If you enable crossfeed on your decouplers (If you can), then the middle engine will burn, but will be using fuel from the boosters.

You have a very high TWR on the pad.  This means you can start your turn pretty much right away.  Get the rocket turned about 10-15 degrees, then follow prograde.  As long as you're facing prograde when you dump the boosters, you shouldn't have trouble with it flipping.

Also, because you have such a high TWR, you can also ditch the reliants and put swivels on the boosters if you'd like.  Would give you better control on your turn.  I made this change and got to a similar orbit as before, no problem.  I'd be happy to do a video of the launch.

[putnamto]

9 minutes ago, Geonovast said:

.

But before that:

I just duplicated your rocket the best I could, and managed to get it to a 99km x 93 km orbit fine with almost 800 m/s of dV left.  I did notice one thing that threw me off when I was staging - you don't appear to have the center engine (I believe it's a swivel and the boosters are reliants?) burning at launch.  If you enable crossfeed on your decouplers (If you can), then the middle engine will burn, but will be using fuel from the boosters.

 

Yeah, I've  recently  changed  my  staging  so  that  all  engines  burn  from  launch, didn't  think  about  cross feed  though  thank  you.

 

Somebody  mentioned  removing  the  struts  and  putting  a  shoot  on  top, I  did  and  I  was  able  to  orbit  and  land  with  a  few  hickups  that  weren't  their  originally.

the  craft  rolls  slightly  now, and  I  have  absolutely  no  control  on  reentry  after 30km the  ship  turns  prograde  and  becomes  a "bullet"

This  led  to  nail biting, I couldn't slow down enough for the parachute till 5km ish. before  I  would  turn  the  craft  parallel to  the  ground  as  a  sort  of  break.

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by putnamto

[Geonovast]

51 minutes ago, putnamto said:

the  craft  rolls  slightly  now, and  I  have  absolutely  no  control  on  reentry  after 30km the  ship  turns  prograde  and  becomes  a "bullet"

That's the crew cabin doing that to you.  It's pushing the CoM too far back.  I was able to re-enter with it staying pointing retrograde.  This is probably because I kept the last stage attached until about 20km or so, burning at low throttle to slow my descent. 

 

[putnamto]

Im  really  beginning  to  think  this  game  is  to  much  for  me, I  landed  that  craft  multiple  times  now, then  I  do  a  flyby  of  the  mun  in  another.

 

I  pick  up  a  contract  for 2 tourist  orbit  kerbin  and  now  I've  crashed 7 times  on  reentry.

Doing  things  the  same  way  multiple  times  should  net  the  same  or  similar  results  each  time, but  not  this  game.

EDIT: ok, i was just really upset that i cant land a craft going 2500m/s at 50,000m with only 300 dv, or maybe it is possible, i dont know

Edited January 22, 2018 by putnamto

[Spricigo]

7 hours ago, putnamto said:

Im  assuming  this  game  gets  easier? Ive  had  so  much  frustration  in  the  past  three  days, I've  read  a  book  and  a  half  of  research. Just  to  be  able  to  do  the  basics.

Things are different in space. Takes a while until we stop to expect the same results as we see at the surface. 

As you already noticed reaching space is easy, achieving orbit not quite. So we want to follow an optimized trajectory. One way to optimize the trajectory is the Gravity Turn: after a initial tilt to east the rocket is kept aligned to the direction of movement(ideally just by aerodynamic forces and gravity). This provide two benefits: 1)no waste of engine force to change direction 2)the rocket stay aligned to the airflow (resulting in less  drag).

The question is, for a given rocket, a)how much initial tilt and b)when start the turn. Too much/too soon the rocket dont go high enough; too little/too late and the rocket don't build up enough horizontal velocity. With some practice you develop the skill yo get it righ, until then there are some 'good signs' that you are in doing ok:

-being tilted by 45° at 10km.

-time to apoapsis is increasing slowly as you climb.

 

And, if you don't mind a bit of self-promotion from my part, this rocket carry 1 pilot and 4 passengers, do a Gravity Turn by itself and costs under 10k. 

[foamyesque]

@putnamto: This might be a dumb question, but on your tourist contracts, you do have a pilot-type Kerbal in the ship, right?

[putnamto]

31 minutes ago, foamyesque said:

@putnamto: This might be a dumb question, but on your tourist contracts, you do have a pilot-type Kerbal in the ship, right?

Jeb 

 

EDIT: I  figured  out  what  I  was  doing  wrong, I  needed  to  come  in  more  horizontally  and  less  vertically  to  give  the  atmosphere  more  time  to  slow  me  down.

 

Thanks  guys, sorry  I  got  all  pitiful  for  a  second.

Edited January 22, 2018 by putnamto

[Human Person]

12 hours ago, putnamto said:

if i work on the drag and aerodynamics should i be able to hi the 45 degree mark before 10km? when i have a successfull orbit with this craft i can only turn it to ten degrees at launch and then its unmoveable until atleast 35k-40k

 

Sounds familiar. Such rocket behavior comes from high aerodynamic stability combined with high Trust to weight. Don‘t worry about it too much, just try to be a little harder on the gravity tun initially.

[putnamto]

alright so im begining to realize how much of an undertaking this game really is.

i did a flyby of the mun, i orbited the mun, and i tried to ferry a vip to the mun, next step is landing on the mun with a UAV, then possibly sending jeb up their.

i did notice that when i took my initial designs and converted them to asparagus staging they were alot more efficiant on dv

so, any tips on the mun landing? after work tommorow im going to build my ship and post it here, hopefully i can get some pointers before i launch.

oh, and i have to mention, great work guys, very helpful, i almost feel like im another world so used to people just flaming and trolling and putting others down in cyberspace.

Edited January 22, 2018 by putnamto

[Guest]

2 hours ago, putnamto said:

any tips on the mun landing?

I will never forget my first successful Mun landing and return mission. Everything went fabulously, except that when returning, Jeb landed right on top of a mountain, rolled down it, and died in an explosion.

As for tips... this is a good deal harder than what you've done so far, both for design and for piloting. It takes a while to get the hang of flying landers, so brace yourself for that. And since this is your first time, overbuild enough that you don't have to be Yuri Gagarin's and Chuck Yeager's secret love child to ace it. You'll have plenty of time to make exquisitely light, fine-tuned delicate little jewels of landers later, brute-forcing it at this point is entirely what you should be doing. 

(Over)building tips for a first-time Mun lander:

1. Keep it as simple as you can. One kerbal, minimal science experiments (no Science Jr!), no fancy docking arrangements, orbiter modules, or what have you. Just a straightforward multi-stage stack with one or two stages that will get you to orbit, one stage that will get you to Mun orbit, one stage to land, take off, and get you pointed at Kerbin, and one stage for re-entry and return. 
2. Pack enough fuel. And batteries. And a solar panel if you have one.
3. Pack enough engine.  
4. Pack enough reaction wheels. You do not want your first lander to handle sluggishly.
5. Make a separate return module instead of trying to return with your entire lander, e.g. a pod with a heat shield connected to the rest of the lander with a decoupler.
6. Test your lander at KSC. If you can take off, hover, and land with it in one piece (with partial fuel if you like), it will work on the Mun (and will be much easier to handle because of the lower gravity).

Later on you'll figure out how to adjust your designs for lower-gravity environments but at this point overbuilding them is the way to go.

The technique itself is simple in theory, but practical application with sweaty palms is a different matter. 

1. Get to low orbit.
2. Kill your surface speed: switch navball to Surface mode, SAS to retrograde mode, and burn until you're down to a few tens of m/s. (When you get more comfortable with it later, you can leave more speed here at this point.)
3. Keep your SAS in surface/retrograde, and watch your ship fall.
4. When you start getting nervous about the ground approaching fast, burn until you're not nervous anymore.
5. As you close in, slow down. I like to watch the shadow: when I can start to see details, I brake to about 10 m/s, and when it's nice and big and sharp, I start braking so that my speed starts gradually falling. Target is about 1.5 m/s when touching down.
6. Just before touching down, cut the engines, otherwise you'll bounce.

Finally, if you want to do an intermediate step before attempting a Mun landing, consider conquering Minmus first. It has much lower gravity, which means landing and reorbiting will be a great deal easier, but the overall mission profile will be similar. The only added complication is that it's in an inclined orbit which means you'll have to figure out how to encounter it without burning an unreasonable amount of fuel. I can help you with that if you want to, but for now I'll leave that to you to discover.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Guest

[Spricigo]

1 hour ago, Brikoleur said:

Finally, if you want to do an intermediate step before attempting a Mun landing, consider conquering Minmus first. It has much lower gravity, which means landing and reorbiting will be a great deal easier, but the overall mission profile will be similar. The only added complication is that it's in an inclined orbit which means you'll have to figure out how to encounter it without burning an unreasonable amount of fuel. I can help you with that if you want to, but for now I'll leave that to you to discover.

 

+1 for that.

 

After you manage to land at Mun/Minmus  effectively you may try to do it efficiently:

 

 

[putnamto]

OK, I  landed  on  the  mun  finally, with ought  breaking  anything..... But  I  have  a  problem.

Im  on  the  far side  east  crater  with 775 dv, this  is barely  enough  to  make  orbit, let  alone  kerbin  reentry.

So  what  are  my  options? Is 775 dv  enough  to  land  safely back at  kerbin, or  do  I  need  to  figure  out  a  rescue  strategy?

As  for  rescue  strategy  I  figure  I  could  just  build  the  same  ship  I  have  now  just  with ought  any  science  and  add  a  probe  core, then  fly  it  to  the mun, land  and  then  have  jeb  fly  it  home.

[Spricigo]

4 hours ago, putnamto said:

Im  on  the  far side  east  crater  with 775 dv, this  is barely  enough  to  make  orbit, let  alone  kerbin  reentry.

Actually that is plenty for achieving orbit.To orbit you don't need to go up, you just need to go sideway really fast. The only reason to go up is to avoid drag (colision with the surface is just a kind drag). So just lift-off and inediately point above the horizon just enough to clear the surface.

You will still need a rescue mission. Its a bit over 300m/s to reach Kerbin's atmosphere and you'd have a bit less than 200m/s in your craft. So you need to send another  ship to rendezvous with Jeb, then jeb EVA, grab the science and return home in the recuee ship. 

If you need help with rendezvous that should help you. 

 

 

[putnamto]

Wouldnt  it  be  easier  to  land  on  the  mun  again, pick  him  up  and  fly  back

[Spricigo]

2 minutes ago, putnamto said:

Wouldnt  it  be  easier  to  land  on  the  mun  again, pick  him  up  and  fly  back

no. you need less deltaV for your rescue ship to reach mun's orbit and rendezvous  with Jeb than to go to the surface.

 

That said, rendezvous can be quite tricky to learn,. That may be the issue for you, but on the other hand for a rescue in the surface you need to land near Jeb what can also be very difficult.

 

 

[putnamto]

1 minute ago, Spricigo said:

no. you need less deltaV for your rescue ship to reach mun's orbit and rendezvous  with Jeb than to go to the surface.

 

That said, rendezvous can be quite tricky to learn,. That may be the issue for you, but on the other hand for a rescue in the surface you need to land near Jeb what can also be very difficult.

 

 

Ill  try  both.

In  my  head  rendezvous  sounds  dangerous, like  throwing  two  rocks  in  the  same  direction  and  hope  they  get  close  enough  that  a  flea  can  jump  from  one  to  the  other.

[Spricigo]

48 minutes ago, putnamto said:

In  my  head  rendezvous  sounds  dangerous, like  throwing  two  rocks  in  the  same  direction  and  hope  they  get  close  enough  that  a  flea  can  jump  from  one  to  the  other.

You go it! it's just like that. 

[putnamto]

30 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

You go it! it's just like that. 

so, you can see my apprehension lol.

so heres the plan then.

build the same craft i used to get jeb to the mun, but remove the science and storage, and replace it with a stayputnik.

[Spricigo]

ok,

7 minutes ago, putnamto said:

so, you can see my apprehension lol.
 

ok, calm down and think a bit about your plan.

You sent a ship and ended stranded, now you want to send a similar ship to rescue the first. 

 

 

 

to rescue at the surface your rescue ship need to be more capable than the one that is trapped there. 

[putnamto]

8 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

ok,

ok, calm down and think a bit about your plan.

You sent a ship and ended stranded, now you want to send a similar ship to rescue the first. 

 

 

 

to rescue at the surface your rescue ship need to be more capable than the one that is trapped there. 

lol, the ship has plenty of dv to get to the mun, orbit, and make it back, its the landing part that killed me.

so the plan, slightly changed.

1. use what fuel is left on mun lander to get into lmo
2. send new ship to rendevous
3???
4. profit