Help with Buran Style shuttle

[Jack5.exe]

So I have done almost everything I could, moved the SRB's, angled the engines, added more SRB's but I just can't seem to get my MK2 sized shuttle; Vevolver to orbit, in fact, I haven't even made it out of the atmosphere, is anyone willing to help?

[qzgy]

Pics? Pics help. We can't help if we can't see what we're trying to fix.

[Jack5.exe]

Just now, qzgy said:

Pics? Pics help. We can't help if we can't see what we're trying to fix.

One sec, lemme get one

[Rocket In My Pocket]

If you are open to a quick and dirty solution, I use this one all the time.

Place several Vernor https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Vernor_Engine at the very top of the launcher facing behind you, and a bunch on the bottom, facing away from you.

Enable RCS at launch, disable soft control mode and let the Vernor's lever the whole ship to the angle you want as you ascend. Reaction wheels never hurt either.

[Jack5.exe]

4 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

If you are open to a quick and dirty solution, I use this one all the time.

Place several Vernor https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Vernor_Engine at the very top of the launcher facing behind you, and a bunch on the bottom, facing away from you.

Enable RCS at launch, disable soft control mode and let the Vernor's lever the whole ship to the angle you want as you ascend. Reaction wheels never hurt either.

K ill try that rn

 

Pics, 2 monoprop engines btw

https://imgur.com/a/VW5kH

[Rocket In My Pocket]

2 minutes ago, Jack5.exe said:

K ill try that rn

 

Pics, 2 monoprop engines btw

https://imgur.com/a/VW5kH

Here's a few pics to explain better under the spoiler, you generally want them on the launcher itself, instead of the shuttle.

Spoiler

Also, just gonna throw this out there; not criticizing your design. Monoprop is inefficient compared to other fuel sources. Ie. A ship that uses monoprop engines/fuel exclusively will never go as far as one that uses Lf/Ox or just Lf. Other than that, I like your shuttle, very cute!

Edited January 21, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Jack5.exe]

6 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I like your shuttle, very cute!

Yeah, I went for a small design to save some money cause I got lifters that can lift the S3-14400 to duna

Edited January 21, 2018 by Jack5.exe

[Jack5.exe]

17 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Here's a few pics to explain better under the spoiler, you generally want them on the launcher itself, instead of the shuttle.

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, just gonna throw this out there; not criticizing your design. Monoprop is inefficient compared to other fuel sources. Ie. A ship that uses monoprop engines/fuel exclusively will never go as far as one that uses Lf/Ox or just Lf. Other than that, I like your shuttle, very cute!

FYI i had to put mine the other way cause i had the opposite direction of the problem, And still not working, the shuttle has 2 vectors and 2 thumpers

[Rocket In My Pocket]

26 minutes ago, Jack5.exe said:

FYI i had to put mine the other way cause i had the opposite direction of the problem, And still not working, the shuttle has 2 vectors and 2 thumpers

So it want's to dive instead of flip over?

A picture of the launcher configuration would be very helpful.

Keep in mind, shuttles are some of the hardest things to design in KSP. You have to be a master at building rockets and planes, because you are essentially making something that is both. Worse, the two have conflicting needs in some cases. It's going to take a lot of trial and error at first.

[Jack5.exe]

8 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

A picture of the launcher configuration would be very helpful.

same album, at the bottom. Also I used procedural parts for a cover for the big SAS wheel, no fuel no nothing, just a structural peice

https://imgur.com/a/VW5kH

[Rocket In My Pocket]

29 minutes ago, Jack5.exe said:

same album, at the bottom. Also I used procedural parts for a cover for the big SAS wheel, no fuel no nothing, just a structural peice

https://imgur.com/a/VW5kH

More control surfaces mounted low would help.

Don't be scared to throw one of the big control wheels on the main booster core, and discard it when you stage. They aren't that expensive.

Also, if possible; suck your shuttle up closer to the booster, as close as you can. The further out it is, the more it's weight and lift is going to pull on the launcher.

(If you are open to a really dirty solution, just clone the shuttle and strap another one on the other side; boom, perfectly balanced. Lol. Or build a  launcher that holds your shuttle centrally. I understand if you want it to look more "legit" though. I'm the same way sometimes.)

Edited January 21, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Geonovast]

So I've been trying to re-create this little guy, and I got a few things:

What's with all the part clipping?  The control surfaces going through the fuselage is making me physically ill (maybe).  Clipping the wings that far into the body isn't helping at all.  It would affect your aerodynamics in read life, but as far as the game is concerned, those wings are outside.  Pushing the wings inside is only limiting your cargo capacity.

You need more weight in the front.  The front of the shuttle is basically just a giant air bubble.

You don't want your rear wheels that far back, otherwise the front is just going to slam down into the ground on touchdown.

I'm not seeing any batteries or solar generation.  The small battery in your probe core won't last long, and those MP engines don't have alternators.

 

I suggest you focus on the shuttle itself first, how it'll get around in orbit and back down before you build the lifter.  If you do the lifter first for what you have, then have to adjust the shuttle... you'll end up re-doing the lifter anyway.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Geonovast

[Jack5.exe]

2 minutes ago, Geonovast said:

So I've been trying to re-create this little guy, and I got a few things:

What's with all the part clipping?  The control surfaces going through the fuselage is making me physically ill (maybe).  Clipping the wings that fan into the body isn't helping at all.  It would affect your aerodynamics in read life, but as far as the game is concerned, those wings are outside.  Pushing the wings inside is only limiting your cargo capacity.

You need more weight in the front.  The front of the shuttle is basically just a giant air bubble.

You don't want your rear wheels that far back, otherwise the front is just going to slam down into the ground on touchdown.

I'm not seeing any batteries or solar generation.  The small battery in your probe core won't last long, and those MP engines don't have alternators.

 

I suggest you focus on the shuttle itself first, how it'll get around in orbit and back down before you build the lifter.  If you do the lifter first for what you have, then have to adjust the shuttle... you'll end up re-doing the lifter anyway.

 

To me the lifter is pretty fine (besides the landing gear thanks for that) I do clip a lot of stuff but really I'm just trying to keep the lifter small and simple (battery and RTG's clipped in I do that usually). And geez you don't have to jump in and be rude saying "making me physically Ill" I'm simply asking for help, not criticism. 

[Geonovast]

1 minute ago, Jack5.exe said:

And geez you don't have to jump in and be rude saying "making me physically Ill" I'm simply asking for help, not criticism. 

That was a joke dude.

[Jack5.exe]

5 minutes ago, Geonovast said:

That was a joke dude.

Oh and forgot to mention, I use the LF/OX for a bit of weight in the front, this thing is also tested on landing (on runway and unlevel ground)

[Tyko]

One small thing....the further away the shuttle is from the lifter the harder it will be to keep it flying straight. I’d change the way your shuttle is attached to the booster to pull it in as tight as possible. 

This may also let you reduce the number of struts. Struts add drag and all those struts hanging off the same side of the booster are just adding to the forces trying to pull your launch off course. 

[Jack5.exe]

Just now, Tyko said:

One small thing....the further away the shuttle is from the lifter the harder it will be to keep it flying straight. I’d change the way your shuttle is attached to the booster to pull it in as tight as possible. 

This may also let you reduce the number of struts. Struts add drag and all those struts hanging off the same side of the booster are just adding to the forces trying to pull your launch off course. 

 

21 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

suck your shuttle up closer to the booster

did that

Ok I just moved the lifting body down, helped a bit I think I made it between the first and second layer of the atmosphere

 

 

[qzgy]

Wait... if you've already got LF/Ox upfront why not also use that for propulsion? Also, hows your CoM/Col?

Looking at your dV numbers, it seems like you have enough. Whats your ascent like/are you doing it efficiently? Ascent trajectories greatly affect this kind of thing.

Edited January 21, 2018 by qzgy

[Jack5.exe]

5 minutes ago, qzgy said:

Wait... if you've already got LF/Ox upfront why not also use that for propulsion? Also, hows your CoM/Col?

Looking at your dV numbers, it seems like you have enough. Whats your ascent like/are you doing it efficiently? Ascent trajectories greatly affect this kind of thing.

The LF/OX will be used as a counterweight, cause the CoM on the Vevolver would be way in the back and the wings would be too close to the tails

Edited January 21, 2018 by Jack5.exe

[qzgy]

Just now, Jack5.exe said:

The LF/OX will be used as a counterweight, cause the CoM on the Vevolver would be way in the back and the wings would be too close to the tails

.... then make the wings part of the tail?

[Jack5.exe]

Just now, qzgy said:

.... then make the wings part of the tail?

So... make a tail?

[qzgy]

1 minute ago, Jack5.exe said:

So... make a tail?

You don't need to have a dedicated main wing and horizontal stabilizer surface. What I would do is make the mainwing/horizontal stabilizer the same part and just add some vertical structural wings on the tank to stop adverse roll. Its hard to explain, but this craft (that isn't mine, its made by the wonderful XB-70A) shows what I'm trying to say.

[sevenperforce]

Try mounting the SRBs using Mirror Attach and then translate them both toward the shuttle, so their thrust vector is lifting through the decoupler.

To save costs, replace the two Vectors with just one, then add a few Thuds, tied to an action group. The Thuds have a great gimbal range and can be angled a little off-prograde to help maintain a good thrust vector prior to SRB separation. Angle the vector so that when you cut the Thuds, it is going up through the CoM of the stack when the main fuel tank is about half empty.

[Jack5.exe]

11 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

Try mounting the SRBs using Mirror Attach and then translate them both toward the shuttle, so their thrust vector is lifting through the decoupler.

To save costs, replace the two Vectors with just one, then add a few Thuds, tied to an action group. The Thuds have a great gimbal range and can be angled a little off-prograde to help maintain a good thrust vector prior to SRB separation. Angle the vector so that when you cut the Thuds, it is going up through the CoM of the stack when the main fuel tank is about half empty.

K that worked, I actually got to booster separation that time... But I lost control, flipped around and reverted

[qzgy]

6 minutes ago, Jack5.exe said:

K that worked, I actually got to booster separation that time... But I lost control, flipped around and reverted

Ohh, it might be an aero issue. Try adding fins to the bottom of your ET to make it a bit more lawndart-like and see if that helps.