Talking Orcas

[LordFerret]

So an Orca can say 'hello' and 'bye bye'... you know what's next..... 'So long, and thanks for all the fish.'

(They also apparently can speak 'dolphin')

 

http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/31/orca-learns-to-say-hello-and-bye-bye-

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/285/1871/20172171

[Green Baron]

Imitating sounds ... natural social learning capacity. Nice :-)

If i remember correctly, orcas hunt socially.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Green Baron

[cypher_00]

Free Willzyx...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Willzyx

Edited January 31, 2018 by cypher_00

[kerbiloid]

Do they have "sir sandwich"? Ranks?

[LordFerret]

The 'wave wash' technique... it would be interesting to know who learned it from who, as both (bottle nose) Dolphins and Orcas use it, and both seemingly have close IQ levels.

[YNM]

TBH, this isn't much different than "teaching" parrots some sentence, right ?

[mikegarrison]

4 minutes ago, YNM said:

TBH, this isn't much different than "teaching" parrots some sentence, right ?

Not enough info in the story to say.

Most social species have ways of communicating things to each other, but language is a completely different thing. Dogs, for instance, understand what we would consider to be the concept of a greeting. Dogs know the difference between someone who has been there for a while and someone who just showed up, and they have ways of indicating whether they are pleased someone new showed up or whether they are not pleased. But they have no way of communicating something like "Harvey, it's good to see you! Last time I saw you was Christmas Eve. How are Carol and little Billy?"

[Green Baron]

44 minutes ago, YNM said:

TBH, this isn't much different than "teaching" parrots some sentence, right ?

It is a little more. Social learning goes in the direction that different or new behaviour can be acquired. In how far that goes in a specific species or individuals of a species depends ... as the previous writer said: not enough info yet.

People living or working with animals that have natural social abilities "built in" frequently observe copying (e. g. apes) and simple communication abilities.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Green Baron

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

Not enough info in the story to say.

Most social species have ways of communicating things to each other, but language is a completely different thing. Dogs, for instance, understand what we would consider to be the concept of a greeting. Dogs know the difference between someone who has been there for a while and someone who just showed up, and they have ways of indicating whether they are pleased someone new showed up or whether they are not pleased. But they have no way of communicating something like "Harvey, it's good to see you! Last time I saw you was Christmas Eve. How are Carol and little Billy?"

Dogs are very good at reading people, I guess more than most humans. 
My parents had an dog, I was playing fetch with it but find it was time to go somewhere else and put it back in the kennel 
The dog sensed that I wanted to catch it so it switched to avoidance mode earlier I tended to pet it but it did not work. 
It was not so trained it would come on command in this setting so I had to fool or convince it , then I stepped on an rose stern, shouted out and fell, dog ran over to me, felt bad about putting it in the kennel afterward. 
Cats are not stupid but they lack the high social intelligence of dogs, an dog will stay away if you are angry, an cat might want to step on your keyboard during an MMO raid. 
 

[Thor Wotansen]

I am very intrigued by this.  Dolphins and Orcas are known to be very social animals and they definitely communicate between themselves to some degree.  If we are able to teach them some simple verbal communication, that would indicate that they very well could have actual language, which brings up the question of sapience and self awareness.  We humans tend to assume the use of tools to be the mark of a sentient species, however if we find that dolphins and orcas posses language that kind of turns on it's head.

[mikegarrison]

50 minutes ago, Thor Wotansen said:

If we are able to teach them some simple verbal communication, that would indicate that they very well could have actual language

No.

No. No. No.

"Actual language" is about as far from "simple verbal communication" as it is possible to be. It's about like saying that shooting a cannonball is basically the same thing as the Apollo 11 mission only a little more simple.

Language is an infinite combination of discrete symbols that can be used to communicate any arbitrarily complex idea. Teaching an animal to say hello or goodbye, even in the correct context, would not be teaching them language.

Edited January 31, 2018 by mikegarrison

[YNM]

1 hour ago, mikegarrison said:

Language is an infinite combination of discrete symbols that can be used to communicate any arbitrarily complex idea.

Language don't need a script.

There *could* be one, but I don't think this research signifies anything.

4 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Social learning goes in the direction that different or new behaviour can be acquired.

Parrots can go that way as well ? You could teach it a few profane sentence along with less profane ones and it'd only do the harsh one every something goes on...

[PB666]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Dogs are very good at reading people, I guess more than most humans. 
My parents had an dog, I was playing fetch with it but find it was time to go somewhere else and put it back in the kennel 
The dog sensed that I wanted to catch it so it switched to avoidance mode earlier I tended to pet it but it did not work. 
It was not so trained it would come on command in this setting so I had to fool or convince it , then I stepped on an rose stern, shouted out and fell, dog ran over to me, felt bad about putting it in the kennel afterward. 
Cats are not stupid but they lack the high social intelligence of dogs, an dog will stay away if you are angry, an cat might want to step on your keyboard during an MMO raid. 
 

Dogs talk to you in their tongue, we mostly don't understand what they are saying. Human are very sight and sound oriented. Dogs are used to communication by action, smell and touching. Dogs of course cannot speak or speak in any kind of complex language.

Have you ever notice that if you do something your dog does not expect, it often shakes its head, like its trying to throw off fleas or get water out of its ears . . .rotating head in brief two part motion = "what?" or "what happened?" or "Why did you do that?". Thats a reaction.  They do it in the same way that people fiddle with their brow when someone does something unexpected. An action is, for example you scold your dog for doing something the dog doesn't think is wrong, it may go to someone else in the family and make a lowish-tone  howl-bark, thats an action "He/she was mean to me, I was wronged". Its the equivalent on someone cursing after someone did something bad to them. Different ways of complaining mean different things, one complaint means feed me, and other one means 'Im bored lets do something'. Dogs actually have a better understanding of our language than we do of there's.

Complex grammar and communication require facilities within the brain to create logic, in human the areas involved in tool construction and building are located proximal, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broca's_area

These areas are larger in human per lean body mass relative to any other species on the planet. Just about all hominims after homo erectus show some enlargement of the calvaria in this area. This indicates and increased facility for complex language, the prefrontal areas of the brain assist in this function. You dog, it it had cranial implants, would never design a Saturn V rocket, it might show you how to pick spots to bury a bone in your yard or spot is would like to mark around your neighborhood.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

Cats understand everything.
But don't get bothered with answers.
Though can make you feel like an idiot with a single glance.
"This calls itself Sapiens...?!"

Imho, there is a crucial distinction between any animal "speech" and human speech: ability of a time lag.

Animal "speech" consists of immediate reactions on the signals just received.
Animals can't deliver messages, make verbal notes, return to the previous conversation.
They can't keep the log in memory.

So, a real speech is not an immediate signal exchange, but interaction between the memories.

Also this means that a "real speech" should have a 3rd person:

• somebody who sends you a message which I'm delivering to you
• past-me vs current-me which talks to you with my speech.

That in turn means that a real speech can appear when a speaker has an ability to recognize himself as a person.
Afaik they call this "cognitive revolution" and afaik it happened ~40 ky ago

Edited February 1, 2018 by kerbiloid

[cypher_00]

Found a video:

 

The blowing raspberries one sounded like he was mixing some "chocolade sauce" with his pool water...

[Green Baron]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Cats understand everything.
But don't get bothered with answers.
Though can make you feel like an idiot with a single glance.
"This calls itself Sapiens...?!"

hat in turn means that a real speech can appear when a speaker has an ability to recognize himself as a person.
Afaik they call this "cognitive revolution" and afaik it happened ~40 ky ago

Humans: i can't help define "real speech". The "cognitive revolution" was largely a fashion several decades ago. We rather distinguish abilities of the current modern humans by "behavioural modernity", which shows up a little abruptly about 40ky ago. That's probably what you mean ? If it is connected to language ? Maybe gradually, that language become more sophisticated than before ...

As to the early evolution of language ... that's a problem that is difficult to solve. More complex sound making might be as old as late erectusses / ante-neandertals like heidelbergensis, with a narrower range of sounds and less vocalisation than that of today. Let's say, not Latin, but English .

Seriously, anatomical abilities play a role of course (nerv-canals in bones, hyoid bone, ... can serve as hints), some have tried to read in the genes (try foxp2 for a search), it is not clear.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Green Baron

[YNM]

1 hour ago, cypher_00 said:

Found a video

Parrots does better ?

[kerbiloid]

36 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Humans: i can't help define "real speech".

Don't worry, I can any time help you with this.

36 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

If it is connected to language ?

It is connected to personality, to the reflection. Ability to percept yourself as a third party person.
There are first-person shooters and third-person ones. Humans can switch between the two modes. Lower animals are probably always in the first-person mode.

36 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

As to the early evolution of language ... that's a problem that is difficult to solve. More complex sound making might be as old as late erectusses / ante-neandertals like heidelbergensis, with a narrower range of sounds and less vocalisation than that of today. Let's say, not Latin, but English .

Seriously, anatomical abilities play a role of course (nerv-canals in bones, hyoid bone, ... can serve as hints), some have tried to read in the genes (try foxp2 for a search), it is not clear.

We can moo in Morse code, rather than tens (or how many) sounds used by a parrot, dog, cat, crow, dolphin, etc.
But even in this case our speech will be more meaningful and effective because we can continue a talk postponed a year ago or deliver a message between a general and a private.
The lower animals can only react on events happening right now.'

Try a test. Stop your inner verbal thinking and don't remember anything, just react on current events.

Edited February 1, 2018 by kerbiloid