Star Wars Episode VIII (8) the Last Jedi Discussion

[tater]

20 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Yes exactly Anakin had the highest count ONLY BECAUSE HE WAS THE CHOSEN ONE!

Chosen by whom? Did they (whoever they are) have a choice who to infect with more? If not, he wasn't chosen, if yes, they could have chosen a nobody, instead, right?

Quote

Rey is a nobody and you can't get infected with a mitoclorians 

They are organisms, so why could you not be infected by them? The wiki effectively says everyone has them, some have more. With a finite number, then every wasted cell sent off for possible reproduction reduces the number (calling General Striker and his concern about "precious bodily fluids"), and every human starts off with the initial population of just 2 cells.

What determines who gets more at conception? How many were in the gametes they came from?

This would infer that the force can only decrease over time as someone with a vast number donated a tiny fraction to offspring, and they don;t increase from there. Or, are some hosts better places for them to live, in which case some "nobody" could be the perfect petri dish for them.

If being a "nobody" matters at all, the SW universe is a terrible dystopia, with a finite number of chosen wizards who can run things as they see fit. Shame the entire series ignores that interesting possibility (that both sides are terrible worlds to want to live in).

Edited December 29, 2017 by tater

[Cheif Operations Director]

7 minutes ago, tater said:

Chosen by whom? Did they (whoever they are) have a choice who to infect with more? If not, he wasn't chosen, if yes, they could have chosen a nobody, instead, right?

They are organisms, so why could you not be infected by them? The wiki effectively says everyone has them, some have more. With a finite number, then every wasted cell sent off for possible reproduction reduces the number (calling General Striker and his concern about "precious bodily fluids"), and every human starts off with the initial population of just 2 cells.

What determines who gets more at conception? How many were in the gametes they came from?

This would infer that the force can only decrease over time as someone with a vast number donated a tiny fraction to offspring, and they don;t increase from there. Or, are some hosts better places for them to live, in which case some "nobody" could be the perfect petri dish for them.

If being a "nobody" matters at all, the SW universe is a terrible dystopia, with a finite number of chosen wizards who can run things as they see fit. Shame the entire series ignores that interesting possibility (that both sides are terrible worlds to want to live in).

Have you seen the prequels? Mitoclorians are a set number! And Anakin was chosen by the force! To bring balance to to force. The force prophecy?

[DDE]

27 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Rey is a nobody and you can't get infected with a mitoclorians 

At this point it's largely accepted that capacity for Force use is inherited; non-sensitive kids of even one Jedi parent are an exclusion rather than the norm, and Leia's affinity was accepted by default. Hell, didn't Luke talk about in the Ep VII trailer?

Caveat: most of JJ Abram's plot hooks for Ep VIII have been dumped; ya, really.

Which is why Rey is such a huge anomaly; ultimately, they did what I expected - turned her into a Force avatar. Which opens up the can of worms that is the Force becoming an agent rather than merely a natural phenomenon, and removes any ceiling on her power - she'd always at least instantly match Kylo.

3 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

And Anakin was chosen by the force!

A certain Force-tinkering Sith lord (and r/prequelmemes) would like a word with you!

[tater]

4 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Have you seen the prequels? Mitoclorians are a set number! And Anakin was chosen by the force! To bring balance to to force. The force prophecy?

I said up thread I saw the first prequel, and it was so awful I refused to watch the rest of them.

If there are finite midclorians, then the force can only decrease in individuals over time. Populations increase, finite organisms spread among them. They would have to then leave their host with each gamete... Every female with them then has a certain number per egg, and every guy loses some with each sperm. There is no possible way for them to do anything but decrease in density per force-person (wizard) over time. What % of his total did Anakin unknowingly donate to each offspring? Remember that he donated an equal number for every "failed swimmer" he ever produced in his lifetime.

A prophecy? So they make the force not about magic (religion), but about biology, then also link it to yet more magic, called prophesy? This is making the failure of the prequels more severe than I had realized. It was better as "energy" and unexplained magic/religion.

 

[Cheif Operations Director]

5 minutes ago, DDE said:

At this point it's largely accepted that capacity for Force use is inherited; non-sensitive kids of even one Jedi parent are an exclusion rather than the norm, and Leia's affinity was accepted by default. Hell, didn't Luke talk about in the Ep VII trailer?

Caveat: most of JJ Abram's plot hooks for Ep VIII have been dumped; ya, really.

Which is why Rey is such a huge anomaly; ultimately, they did what I expected - turned her into a Force avatar. Which opens up the can of worms that is the Force becoming an agent rather than merely a natural phenomenon, and removes any ceiling on her power - she'd always at least instantly match Kylo.

A certain Force-tinkering Sith lord (and r/prequelmemes) would like a word with you!

Yes your right about the last part But He was still a Jedi Prophecy my point is that Anakin wasn't natural he was pretty much the forces potential. So nobody should surpass him unless he had a family line which he did so that opens possibilities for his force potential to normal but Rey isn't a Skywalker so now her being "the new normal" is not true and she is overpowered. 

[tater]

10 minutes ago, DDE said:

At this point it's largely accepted that capacity for Force use is inherited; non-sensitive kids of even one Jedi parent are an exclusion rather than the norm, and Leia's affinity was accepted by default. Hell, didn't Luke talk about in the Ep VII trailer?

Caveat: most of JJ Abram's plot hooks for Ep VIII have been dumped; ya, really.

Which is why Rey is such a huge anomaly; ultimately, they did what I expected - turned her into a Force avatar. Which opens up the can of worms that is the Force becoming an agent rather than merely a natural phenomenon, and removes any ceiling on her power - she'd always at least instantly match Kylo.

Seems like if anyone pays any attention to "the force" as created with these organisms, Lucas hopelessly ruined everything in Ep I. It's logically inconsistent. Maybe all the midclorians live in lucas' chin waddle.

Edited December 29, 2017 by tater

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, tater said:

I said up thread I saw the first prequel, and it was so awful I refused to watch the rest of them.

If there are finite midclorians, then the force can only decrease in individuals over time. Populations increase, finite organisms spread among them. They would have to then leave their host with each gamete... Every female with them then has a certain number per egg, and every guy loses some with each sperm. There is no possible way for them to do anything but decrease in density per force-person (wizard) over time. What % of his total did Anakin unknowingly donate to each offspring? Remember that he donated an equal number for every "failed swimmer" he ever produced in his lifetime.

A prophecy? So they make the force not about magic (religion), but about biology, then also link it to yet more magic, called prophesy? This is making the failure of the prequels more severe than I had realized. It was better as "energy" and unexplained magic/religion.

 

Ahh! You are not following what I'm saying. The mitoclorians are infinite. It isn't impossible for Rey to be that powerful but she shouldn't be. If Anakin was the chosen one and the highest force potential in reason reynshouldnt be more powerful.

1 minute ago, tater said:

Seems like if anyone pays any attention to "the force" as created with these organisms, Lucas hopelessly ruined everything in Ep I. It's logically inconsistent. Maybe all the midclorians live in lucas' chin waddle.

Ok so your arguement is what that Lucas made Rey and Disney telepathically hired an actor and let rye be over powered. Mitoclorians have no limit... Technically but... ok he is a example

Can a human lift 18 wheeler 100% up. 

No... Why? They don't have enough muscles ok well just just their luck I guess. 

(I know it's more complicated)

But if "a special human" Just got a lot more muscles and were born as hulk Their the Jedi and Sith. And can lift the 18 wheeler

Anakin is the "special human" that can lift the freight Train. He is special and is a one time thing

Rey is the "special Human" that can lift the a World Trade Center Complex.

see the problem?

Every human has muscles right? (Unless their dead) Youc an become more strong with TRAINING right? More focus. Muscles are the human equivalent of Mitoclorians. 

The Jedi order only had 10,000 Jedi out of a galaxy of tens if not hundreds of trillions. The Sith only trained two so 10,002 trained individuals at the time of the clone wars. The special Human Anakin it stronger than them all but he had a prophecy and should never be surpassed in power he isn't the special human class he is the Super Special Human Class. 

Rey is a outlier beyond comprehension it isn't ever right and is a discredit to all of Star Wars a aweful.

He let me cite you my canon logic

[Cheif Operations Director]

Star Wars the Clone Wars Episode 15-16-17 

Star Wars Ep I Phantom Menace

Star Wars Ep III Revengeof the Sith

Star Wars Ep IV A New Hope

Their that's what proves Anakin was special and only supposed to be that powerful because the fore let him be,

.

The clone wars is viewable on Netflix 

[tater]

26 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Have you seen the prequels? Mitoclorians are a set number! And Anakin was chosen by the force! To bring balance to to force. The force prophecy?

!= infinite.

A set number is finite.

If they are infinite (the exact opposite of what you said), then there is no reason why a nobody could not have them. They had to move to beings for the first time at some point. A world was lifeless, then life evolved, then midclorians moved into the life forms. They HAVE to be able to move to new life forms. have to.

 

The canon is a mess. That's the problem, citing it doesn't help. Lucas made a mess. Getting upset about Rey's power seems astoundingly absurd to me.

[Cheif Operations Director]

 

Mitoclorians are a SET NUMBER in each individual. If you have 20,000 mitoclorians you have 20,000 mitoclorians UNLESS you lose part of your body. You can't gain Mitoclorians When Anakin loss hit legs and arms he lost a lot of his potential. But was still very strong with the force. So strong if he had gotten a better suit he could have found Sidious and  POSSIBLY won

3 minutes ago, tater said:

!= infinite.

A set number is finite.

If they are infinite (the exact opposite of what you said), then there is no reason why a nobody could not have them. They had to move to beings for the first time at some point. A world was lifeless, then life evolved, then midclorians moved into the life forms. They HAVE to be able to move to new life forms. have to.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Cheif Operations Director

[tater]

In fact, if they are infinite, and there are finite beings, then each being has an infinite number.

[Cheif Operations Director]

Ok because their is infinite individuals their are infinite miticlorians but once your born that is your maximum number of mitoclorians

[tater]

2 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Mitoclorians are a SET NUMBER in each individual. If you have 20,000 mitoclorians you have 20,000 mitoclorians UNLESS you lose part of your body. You can't gain Mitoclorians When Anakin loss hit legs and arms he lost a lot of his potential. But was still very strong with the force. So strong if he had gotten a better suit he could have found Sidious and  POSSIBLY won

Anakin loses 100 million parts of himself every time he attempts reproduction. How many are assigned to each attempt? When does he run out from that?

Lucas was a moron to introduce that concept. A moron.

Edited December 29, 2017 by tater

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, tater said:

Anakin loses 100 million parts of him every time he attempts reproduction. How many are assigned to each attempt? When does he run out from that?

Please don't go their...

Star Wars doesn't take that into account again this is you applying real science into a movie where people levitate thing by stickijgnout their hand. This is a movie where you cans breathe in a gas giant And where their is gravity in a star fighter.

Did you even see what I said about my analogy and my citations for the movie and shows about  his power 

According to Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi's master they live in each cell so it's 20,000 per cell. Anakin had far more than 20,000 mitoclorians if I'm understanding right

Qui gon also says time and TRAINING will teach you the will of the force in the same scene which mean YOU CANT USE THE FORCE WITH OUT TRAINING.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Cheif Operations Director

[tater]

Anakin has 100,000,000 midclorians. He gave a subset of that to each offspring (plus any others lost otherwise).

How many did he give Luke? How many did he give Leia?

Pick a number.

Did he keep 60M, and give 30M to Luke, and 10M to Leia? Darth is now more powerful than Luke (60 vs 30). Leia gives birth to Ben. How many of her 10 did she give? 9 million? Kylo is now 9 M vs Anakin's 100M. Realistically, as I said above, if Anakin had 100M, there might be a sort of lottery in kids where most possible kids get zero, and occasionally there's one possible that gets a lot, where a lot is still a small number. Padme would have hers only divided by a few hundred (because biology).

Bottom line is that if people have a finite number, and they are ONLY inherited from parents, there is never an increase in power, each generation of jedi/whatever is necessarily less strong than the former.

Edited December 29, 2017 by tater

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, tater said:

Anakin has 100,000,000 midclorians. He gave a subset of that to each offspring (plus any others lost otherwise).

How many did he give Luke? How many did he give Leia?

Pick a number.

Did he keep 60M, and give 30M to Luke, and 10M to Leia? Darth is now more powerful than Luke (60 vs 30). Leia gives birth to Ben. How many of her 10 did she give? 9 million? Kylo is now 9 M vs Anakin's 100M. Realistically, as I said above, if Anakin had 100M, there might be a sort of lottery in kids where most possible kids get zero, and occasionally there's one possible that gets a lot, where a lot is still a small number. Palme would have hers only divided by a few hundred (because biology).

Bottom line is that if people have a finite number, and they are ONLY inherited from parents, there is never an increase in power, each generation of jedi/whatever is necessarily less strong than the former.

Are you even listening to me?

Please stop ranting I'm enjoying this conversation because of gives me a different perspective but I want you to counter me with logic in reference to Star Wars not earth.

[tater]

1 minute ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Are you even listening to me?

Are you doing any math?

20,000 per cell.

Anakin had like 10¹³ cells (typical human). so he had 20,000x10¹³ midcloirians.

Luke got 20,000 from Dad (the one cell he got from dad). Even if he got the same from mom, Luke now has 40,000 vs 20,000x10¹³.

Lucas is a moron, and you don't like Disney?

Remember, you're the one concerned about Rey's genetics, not me.

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, tater said:

Are you doing any math?

20,000 per cell.

Anakin had like 10¹³ cells (typical human). so he had 20,000x10¹³ midcloirians.

Luke got 20,000 from Dad (the one cell he got from dad). Even if he got the same from mom, Luke now has 40,000 vs 20,000x10¹³.

Lucas is a moron, and you don't like Disney?

I think Disney should stick to princess's and unicorns. And cells multiply do they not? Humans are not one cell. Again I'm saying that This is a movie where humans lift objects with their minds

I would be more than happy if Ep VII and VIII didn't exist the way they do now. Or if Disney had thought about consequences of their actions with Rey.

They could be doing tie ins and making it make sense but their not.

[PakledHostage]

21 minutes ago, tater said:

Lucas was a moron to introduce that concept. A moron.

But aren't midiclorians (sp?) only ever mentioned in episode I? As pointed out so astutely by Rod Hilton in his Machete Order blog, we can toss that entire episode onto the trash heap of movie history without losing anything meaningful from the story. Can we just pretend it was never made and move on?

[tater]

5 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I think Disney should stick to princess's and unicorns. And cells multiply do they not? Humans are not one cell. Again I'm saying that This is a movie where humans lift objects with their minds

I said cells could multiply above, which you discounted.

Luke got 20,000 from Darth, period.

So you are saying Luke was a good host for them, and they multiplied? That's fine, so Luke eventually gets a number perhaps sort of Darth like.

Are you following me? Do you agree?

OK, Rey's parents have nothing like 20,000/cell. Say her parents gave her a total of just 2 midclorians. She, entirely randomly, is an incredible host for them, and they multiply until she has a similar number to Anakin. Not at all impossible. Mold likes bread, it's not so happy on stainless steel.

5 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I would be more than happy if Ep VII and VIII didn't exist the way they do now. Or if Disney had thought about consequences of their actions with Rey.

They could be doing tie ins and making it make sense but their not.

You are entirely irrational. The new movies are not great (though as I said, I really like some of the acting, and some of the characters), but the 3 prequels were terrible. Disney is at worst doing no better than Lucas.

This obsession with Rey's pedigree is bizarre. If you can handwave midclorians, I can handwave why she started nearly bereft of them, but grew more.

 

[Cheif Operations Director]

Well I don't like Ep VII or VIII like most of the community so let just toss them too.

[tater]

5 minutes ago, PakledHostage said:

But aren't midiclorians (sp?) only ever mentioned in episode I? As pointed out so astutely by Rod Hilton in his Machete Order blog, we can toss that entire episode onto the trash heap of movie history without losing anything meaningful from the story. Can we just pretend it was never made and move on?

Sensible people can, but as canon goes, you really can't.

I'd be happy for that, actually, in which case anyone who agrees cannot be concerned with Rey's pedigee, right?

4 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Well I don't like Ep VII or VIII like most of the community so let just toss them too.

The SW community is pretty goofy, honestly. If they were rational they would never have seen Ep II and III in the theater as protest for Ep I.

Edited December 29, 2017 by tater

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, tater said:

Sensible people can, but as canon goes, you really can't.

The SW community is pretty goofy, honestly. If they were rational they would never have seen Ep II and III in the theater as protest for Ep I.

 

2 minutes ago, tater said:

I said cells could multiply above, which you discounted.

Luke got 20,000 from Darth, period.

So you are saying Luke was a good host for them, and they multiplied? That's fine, so Luke eventually gets a number perhaps sort of Darth like.

Are you following me? Do you agree?

OK, Rey's parents have nothing like 20,000/cell. Say her parents gave her a total of just 2 midclorians. She, entirely randomly, is an incredible host for them, and they multiply until she has a similar number to Anakin. Not at all impossible. Mold likes bread, it's not so happy on stainless steel.

You are entirely irrational. The new movies are not great (though as I said, I really like some of the acting, and some of the characters), but the 3 prequels were terrible. Disney is at worst doing no better than Lucas.

This obsession with Rey's pedigree is bizarre. If you can handwave midclorians, I can handwave why she started nearly bereft of them, but grew more.

 

Your killing me! Rey shouldn't be that powerful... I'm fine if she is but I want a reason! 

She isn't the chosen one and has no force family. 

SO WHY?! 

If she is that powerful with training fine I just want a reason from Disney that all but as time progresses they kill each possible explanation. 

I just want to know why. With Episode VIII they could have said she was at Luke's academy or that she was the daughter of someone. They had so many possibilities to explore but they went with the classic Disney. Farmer on hill becomes a hero, inspirational moment thing. 

[tater]

Just now, Cheif Operations Director said:

 

Your killing me! Rey shouldn't be that powerful... I'm fine if she is but I want a reason! 

Because she's the best petri dish for midclorians ever.

Just now, Cheif Operations Director said:

She isn't the chosen one and has no force family. 

Not that they knew of. Is everyone strong in the force a Jedi, or are some just dirt farmers? There have been many people on the highest end of the human IQ scale who were simply farmers. Smart farmers, but never had need for their full intellectual ability. She lived ona  backwater, and the parent with loads of force never noticed it.

Just now, Cheif Operations Director said:

SO WHY?! 

If she is that powerful with training fine I just want a reason from Disney that all but as time progresses they kill each possible explanation. 

I just told you why. It's easy to make up why.

Why would you have any concern about her pedigree? I don't get the concern in the least. Luke's pedigree was interesting as STORY, not because of magical force organisms.

Also, why keep blaming "Disney" when the entirety of the problem you keep harping on stems from a George Lucas decision?

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, tater said:

Because she's the best petri dish for midclorians ever.

Not that they knew of. Is everyone strong in the force a Jedi, or are some just dirt farmers? There have been many people on the highest end of the human IQ scale who were simply farmers. Smart farmers, but never had need for their full intellectual ability. She lived ona  backwater, and the parent with loads of force never noticed it.

I just told you why. It's easy to make up why.

Why would you have any concern about her pedigree? I don't get the concern in the least. Luke's pedigree was interesting as STORY, not because of magical force organisms.

All I want is a reason. And Disney killed all of the reasons. You obviously are not going to research this and I don't see the point. 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Overlords

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Altar_of_Mortis_(episode)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ghosts_of_Mortis

 

 

Those are what I'm citing