Tucker Carlson-UFOs- Propulsion Systems

[Cheif Operations Director]

My idea would keep the craft levitated not floating up just levitated. And it would also be a bit of a flying wing seeing as the entire craft has no fuselage. If shaped correctly it could be 50% Highly compressed air and not producing much drag Maby not achieving full lift but atleast little drag. This adding a few air scoops tomrepressureize and recycle the air for a few hours would be that much of a tall order. Furthur more have let's say 10 small 3D Printed Rocket Engines (plastic), expelling the air. This way the weight of the engine would be reduced seeing as it doesn't need that much weight. Then a simple RCS system. It might work for a few hours and then take a small burst from small engine to keep it up to speed. Thoughts

Remebee the top and center is a giant metal coated ballon. It can hold extremely high pressures. It could also cancel of some of the gravitation effects and reduce drag from gravity. 

[Cheif Operations Director]

The air scoop could be bigger than the engine consumption for the air (although this would be tricky) this would force constant increases in pressure requireing the occasional venting to prevent it from blowing up. This wouldn't work normally but don't forget the saucer shape would be a lot longer (and thinner) to allow for more lift. And the increase in size only increases the balloons capacity. 

[Cheif Operations Director]

On 3/12/2018 at 9:27 PM, StrandedonEarth said:

Gravity polarizer or anti-gravity. Nothing else known could generate enough thrust efficiently, without a heat signature. Still, hard to see how a craft could have any kind of power system without a heat signature, without waste heat, without cooking whatever is inside. Whatever it is would have to be operating outside the bounds of known physics.

Water. It could coolit with water or nitrogen.

[Xorth Tanovar]

just a really long string...

[NSEP]

Sonic levitation maybe?

 

[Dimas152]

idk but maybe they're just dish-shaped hot balloons? they're light enough to be propelled by .. wait
lmao

 

[Cheif Operations Director]

16 hours ago, [INDO]dimas_1502 said:

idk but maybe they're just dish-shaped hot balloons? they're light enough to be propelled by .. wait
lmao

 

I concur seriously. Just use the hot air! 

[YNM]

12 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I concur seriously. Just use the hot air! 

That woud class it directly under "cock up" then XD

 

Also, Hot Air Balloons on FSX Steam Edition... Hmm.

Edited March 17, 2018 by YNM

[GoSlash27]

On 3/12/2018 at 8:27 PM, StrandedonEarth said:

Gravity polarizer or anti-gravity. Nothing else known could generate enough thrust efficiently, without a heat signature. Still, hard to see how a craft could have any kind of power system without a heat signature, without waste heat, without cooking whatever is inside. Whatever it is would have to be operating outside the bounds of known physics.

 ^This. If we're speculating about craft that can cross interstellar distances and then proceed to maneuver around with no thermal signature, then "outside the bounds of known physics" is mandatory.

Best,
-Slashy

[dreadanaught]

What if the object uses solar arrays for power, then has some kind of electromagnet that moves it around, sort of like a maglev train? Or it could just have radiators that it hides from observers, and moves fast enough that the air on that side of it cannot absorb significant heat, but still slow enough that it does not experience atmospheric heating?

[DDE]

On ‎20‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 10:13 PM, dreadanaught said:

sort of like a maglev train?

Maglev trains have maglev tracks.

[Nuke]

mega drives. aka mach effect thrusters. they are "reactionless" drives (though you could say they use the entire universe as reaction mass). the idea is the mass of something really doesnt mean anything unless there are other objects to compare it to. but since gravity is not instantaneous, the mass of objects are in a state of flux. if you can determine the fluctuation and oscilate a mass in tune to it, you get free thrust. it does everything em drives do except there is theory out there to explain why it works. they are currently in a mad quest for more thrust but they are running into materials problems.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Nuke

[Cheif Operations Director]

Interesting Ideas... I just cant think of a heatless reaction.

[dreadanaught]

On 3/24/2018 at 11:31 AM, DDE said:

Maglev trains have maglev tracks.

Yes, I know that, but what if it had some kind of magnet inside, then it could push off the Earth's magnetic field.

[qzgy]

38 minutes ago, dreadanaught said:

Yes, I know that, but what if it had some kind of magnet inside, then it could push off the Earth's magnetic field.

The earths magnetic field is incredibly weak (25-65 microtesla). For comparison, ITER uses approximately 12 tesla magnetic fields for containment. Not very helpful but still a point of reference.

Add to that the fact that its strength decreases with a square (if I remember physics correctly) and you're much higher up than the surface, where that strength is recorded. Also add even further to that, your magnetic field can only repel or attract along field lines so on the earth's surface, only the Z (upwards) component actually does anything, making the already weak repulsion force weaker. And most of the field lines are not in the Z-direction since its relatively close to the equator, so its pretty weak. Especially when compared to gravity.

So I really really doubt that that could work. To the point of saying its basically impossible.

Edited April 4, 2018 by qzgy

[dreadanaught]

39 minutes ago, qzgy said:

The earths magnetic field is incredibly weak (25-65 microtesla). For comparison, ITER uses approximately 12 tesla magnetic fields for containment. Not very helpful but still a point of reference.

Add to that the fact that its strength decreases with a square (if I remember physics correctly) and you're much higher up than the surface, where that strength is recorded. Also add even further to that, your magnetic field can only repel or attract along field lines so on the earth's surface, only the Z (upwards) component actually does anything, making the already weak repulsion force weaker. And most of the field lines are not in the Z-direction since its relatively close to the equator, so its pretty weak. Especially when compared to gravity.

So I really really doubt that that could work. To the point of saying its basically impossible.

 

I suppose, oh well.

On 3/26/2018 at 5:06 PM, Nuke said:

mega drives. aka mach effect thrusters. they are "reactionless" drives (though you could say they use the entire universe as reaction mass). the idea is the mass of something really doesnt mean anything unless there are other objects to compare it to. but since gravity is not instantaneous, the mass of objects are in a state of flux. if you can determine the fluctuation and oscilate a mass in tune to it, you get free thrust. it does everything em drives do except there is theory out there to explain why it works. they are currently in a mad quest for more thrust but they are running into materials problems.

Wouldn't 'free thrust' violate the second law of thermodynamics, because the energy to move the spacecraft would have to come from somewhere? (if I understand the second law of thermodynamics correctly)

 

Also, not relating to the quotes above, but as I said earlier, what if the engine does give off heat, just the heat comes out of a radiator on the non-observed side of the ufo, and the ufo is simply moving fast enough that the air it passes does not gain significant heat per a  given amount volume, but there is a large overall volume of air that the radiator comes into contact with due to the high velocity of the ufo? This would give an infrared signature, but the signature would be difficult to detect because the heat would be spread over a large area.

[Nuke]

4 hours ago, dreadanaught said:

 

I suppose, oh well.

Wouldn't 'free thrust' violate the second law of thermodynamics, because the energy to move the spacecraft would have to come from somewhere? (if I understand the second law of thermodynamics correctly)

 

Also, not relating to the quotes above, but as I said earlier, what if the engine does give off heat, just the heat comes out of a radiator on the non-observed side of the ufo, and the ufo is simply moving fast enough that the air it passes does not gain significant heat per a  given amount volume, but there is a large overall volume of air that the radiator comes into contact with due to the high velocity of the ufo? This would give an infrared signature, but the signature would be difficult to detect because the heat would be spread over a large area.

well if there is no momentum exchange there would be a blatant violation. but the theory is that there is some momentum exchange in the form of mass fluctuations. it uses the rest of the universe as remass. as i understand it the mega-drive is not very power hungry, unlike the em drive where you have to pump in a lot of microwave energy. mega drive you just have to run an oscillator, oscillate a small mass at a high frequency in tune to the natural fluctuations (you could do a mems device for chipsats i suppose). woodward was claming f1-like performance was possible using current space power systems or some such , in other words you can launch it from the ground. so when they demonstrate that capability then i will believe it. something something extraordinary evidence something. if it works then its a very ufo engine.

 

thing that bugs me about it is if the mass fluctuations are natural, then wouldn't they be chaotic and hard to predict? certainly hard to tune for.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Nuke

[p1t1o]

16 hours ago, dreadanaught said:

Also, not relating to the quotes above, but as I said earlier, what if the engine does give off heat, just the heat comes out of a radiator on the non-observed side of the ufo, and the ufo is simply moving fast enough that the air it passes does not gain significant heat per a  given amount volume, but there is a large overall volume of air that the radiator comes into contact with due to the high velocity of the ufo? This would give an infrared signature, but the signature would be difficult to detect because the heat would be spread over a large area.

This is possible, in fact it is done, but perhaps not quite in the way that you imagine. It is limited in effect however, reducing probability or range of detection rather than hiding the craft entirely. The intricacies of thermodynamics make it so you can reduce your signature quite easily, but its extremely difficult to approach zero emissions. About the only way to be *almost* invisible to IR is to have a large tank of liquid helium and actively cooling your vehicle and venting the heated coolant through an expansion nozzle, though this is only really relevant to spacecraft.

Have a search through the forums for discussions on stealth in space (its quite a hot topic sometimes) and have a read here: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php

Pictured: the IR baffle on the engine of an Apache helicopter. It entrains a large amount of ambient air and mixes it with the exhaust before ejecting it.

 

[YNM]

TBH, even if you manage to get an engine that "stays cool", the meats inside stays warm.

[dreadanaught]

5 hours ago, p1t1o said:

This is possible, in fact it is done, but perhaps not quite in the way that you imagine. It is limited in effect however, reducing probability or range of detection rather than hiding the craft entirely. The intricacies of thermodynamics make it so you can reduce your signature quite easily, but its extremely difficult to approach zero emissions. About the only way to be *almost* invisible to IR is to have a large tank of liquid helium and actively cooling your vehicle and venting the heated coolant through an expansion nozzle, though this is only really relevant to spacecraft.

Have a search through the forums for discussions on stealth in space (its quite a hot topic sometimes) and have a read here: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php

3

I think you have the right idea of what I am saying. If we take a radiator and simply put it on the other side of the ufo from the pilot and the IR tracking system, then neither would be able to see the heat.

[p1t1o]

1 hour ago, dreadanaught said:

I think you have the right idea of what I am saying. If we take a radiator and simply put it on the other side of the ufo from the pilot and the IR tracking system, then neither would be able to see the heat.

Whilst this would work in a perfect world, it has little military utility (I presume this is a military context, I will continue as if this is the case), simply because its only camouflaged from one side. And whilst it is easy to say "Just cool the aircraft and dump the heat trough the radiator" this is difficult to achieve in reality due to the intricacies of thermodynamics. The project rho page should describe these issues in more detail than I can here, but some stand out points - 

1. A radiator can only cool down to ambient temp, if the radiator is being heated by air friction/compression, this affects how much heat can be dumped.

2. Merely moving heat from one place to another requires energy, which generates waste heat, which increases the cooling load, which requires more energy, which produces more waste heat etc.

3. Does the radiation coming off your radiator shine back onto any part of the aircraft? I already know - yes it does.

4. Want to fly fast in air? Throw IR stealth out the window, the air around your aircraft will be hot enough to detect simply from being squished out of the way by your aircraft.

5. Want to fly slow? Is there enough air going over the radiator for your uses?

6. There will be an angle from which the radiator is visible, and it will be like a beacon. The more you restrict its visibility, the less efficient you make it as more heat shines back onto the airframe.

7. There are no perfect insulators or perfect conductors, no perfect radiators or absorbers.

8. A supply of cryogenic coolant can help to make your heat "dissappear", temporarily, whilst the fluid lasts - making cryogenic liquids generates a lot of heat, so thermodynamically speaking you are "leaving the heat behind" at the facility where it was produced, allowing you some heat-transfer-free cooling but it is still subject to all of the above limitations and you have to dispose of tons of hot coolant somehow and can you even carry enough of it to be useful in practice?

9. This ones a biggie. The more heat you want to dump through the radiator, the more air needs to pass over it and the higher its surface area needs to be. Which means it must be more draggy. There will be  a direct relationship between heat dump capacity and drag. Drag means more frictional heat and requires more thrust, which means more heat. More heat means more radiator which means more drag which means more heat - see where Im going? Its down to minutae of the maths to tell if there is or isnt a workable equilibrium possible. There may not be.

 

So now you're thinking "OK so thermodynamics makes it hard to achieve perfection, but surely we can make it cold enough to make it so hard to detect that it will offer some advantage?".

Maybe, with great engineering and design effort (and likely a fair amount of novel research) you can make an IR-stealthy aircraft...if you can persuade your enemy not to look at it from the wrong angle. Which is not a joke, early (radar) stealth aircraft were much less stealthy from certain angles so intelligence resources and planning - this can involves anything from desk work to ground attacks on supporting facilities, even special forces behind enemy lines - is used to minimise the risk and maximise useful stealth.

Speaking of radar, have you given any thought to the radar cross section of giant radiators?

 

 

Besides, it is quite possible to fly an aircraft with near total invisibility today, without dealing with IR at all - fly very close to the ground and put terrain between you and enemy sensors. Naturally this doesnt work without good intelligence and planning - and can be defeated with good intelligence and planning.

Trust me, if IR stealth was viable, they would already exist. IR is an important technology in air combat, nobody has forgotten to counter it.

 

Sorry if that sounds a little pessimistic, thats thermodynamics for you, it doesnt let you do anything fun...

Edited April 5, 2018 by p1t1o

[Kernel Kraken]

1 hour ago, p1t1o said:

Whilst this would work in a perfect world, it has little military utility (I presume this is a military context, I will continue as if this is the case), simply because its only camouflaged from one side. And whilst it is easy to say "Just cool the aircraft and dump the heat trough the radiator" this is difficult to achieve in reality due to the intricacies of thermodynamics. The project rho page should describe these issues in more detail than I can here, but some stand out points - 

1. A radiator can only cool down to ambient temp, if the radiator is being heated by air friction/compression, this affects how much heat can be dumped.

2. Merely moving heat from one place to another requires energy, which generates waste heat, which increases the cooling load, which requires more energy, which produces more waste heat etc.

3. Does the radiation coming off your radiator shine back onto any part of the aircraft? I already know - yes it does.

4. Want to fly fast in air? Throw IR stealth out the window, the air around your aircraft will be hot enough to detect simply from being squished out of the way by your aircraft.

5. Want to fly slow? Is there enough air going over the radiator for your uses?

6. There will be an angle from which the radiator is visible, and it will be like a beacon. The more you restrict its visibility, the less efficient you make it as more heat shines back onto the airframe.

7. There are no perfect insulators or perfect conductors, no perfect radiators or absorbers.

8. A supply of cryogenic coolant can help to make your heat "dissappear", temporarily, whilst the fluid lasts - making cryogenic liquids generates a lot of heat, so thermodynamically speaking you are "leaving the heat behind" at the facility where it was produced, allowing you some heat-transfer-free cooling but it is still subject to all of the above limitations and you have to dispose of tons of hot coolant somehow and can you even carry enough of it to be useful in practice?

9. This ones a biggie. The more heat you want to dump through the radiator, the more air needs to pass over it and the higher its surface area needs to be. Which means it must be more draggy. There will be  a direct relationship between heat dump capacity and drag. Drag means more frictional heat and requires more thrust, which means more heat. More heat means more radiator which means more drag which means more heat - see where Im going? Its down to minutae of the maths to tell if there is or isnt a workable equilibrium possible. There may not be.

 

So now you're thinking "OK so thermodynamics makes it hard to achieve perfection, but surely we can make it cold enough to make it so hard to detect that it will offer some advantage?".

Maybe, with great engineering and design effort (and likely a fair amount of novel research) you can make an IR-stealthy aircraft...if you can persuade your enemy not to look at it from the wrong angle. Which is not a joke, early (radar) stealth aircraft were much less stealthy from certain angles so intelligence resources and planning - this can involves anything from desk work to ground attacks on supporting facilities, even special forces behind enemy lines - is used to minimise the risk and maximise useful stealth.

Speaking of radar, have you given any thought to the radar cross section of giant radiators?

 

 

Besides, it is quite possible to fly an aircraft with near total invisibility today, without dealing with IR at all - fly very close to the ground and put terrain between you and enemy sensors. Naturally this doesnt work without good intelligence and planning - and can be defeated with good intelligence and planning.

Trust me, if IR stealth was viable, they would already exist. IR is an important technology in air combat, nobody has forgotten to counter it.

 

Sorry if that sounds a little pessimistic, thats thermodynamics for you, it doesnt let you do anything fun...

On the theoretical physics side of things, it does seem plausible. But how would you store that much helium to cool your craft if it's, say, the size of an F-22? Liquids aren't very compressible, so you'd need large tanks, which would be very hard to conceal. Smaller tanks would work, considering it's hypersonic and flight time would be short. Dang it thermodynamics and ENTROPY.

[Cheif Operations Director]

What about my de laval nozzle with the compressed gas idea?