Air Superiority Competition Unlimited Re-Continued - Now in KSP 1.4 and BDA 1.2!

[ZLM-Master]

 I also keep in mind that ( 10% / 15% ) Random luck ( Haha )

My best tip is , Test , test & re-test ^^ Take a look at our AI pilot setting ( & the global shape of the craft ) could help you a lot , the two last values ( G & AoA ) can be set to the max but care with other values set at max can have Négatif impact ^^ ( too much Steering , too low altitude )

Maybe stupid idea but try to put your Mind inside your craft ( what you want to your craft ) Speed , Accuracy , Lifetime , dodge ! Yep , that's not so easy that's it look ! 

You've build a short design drone & it's not the more easy to tweak ( just my PoV - X-fighter take me time to proper tune ^^ )

My other tip is , build a good Drone ( aircraft ) Then put weapon on it ! at least 3 step .

- A decent aircraft

- The optimized weapon for THIS CRAFT

- Tune the AI Pilot

& ofc , test against other challenger

[Box of Stardust]

Okay everyone, your first big menace for BDA 1.2 is here. PEGASys-D6

[ZLM-Master]

" We lost the battle, the war can begin! "

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

Okay everyone, your first big menace for BDA 1.2 is here. PEGASys-D6

Uh oh... this doesn't look good..

[Box of Stardust]

2 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

Uh oh... this doesn't look good..

If it ain't broke, don't fix it (too much), eh?

[ZLM-Master]

Got some new entry , better ( or not ^^ ) Let's see

More TWR on Xc-Fighter - Infinity & Lower Mass on X-Fighter - Mini

Infinity

Mini

Tada !

[Box of Stardust]

16 minutes ago, ZLM-Master said:

Got some new entry , better ( or not ^^ ) Let's see

More TWR on Xc-Fighter - Infinity & Lower Mass on X-Fighter - Mini

Infinity

Mini

Tada !

Well, regardless of how they perform, you always build really cool looking ones. 

[Piatzin]

20 minutes ago, ZLM-Master said:

Infinity 

 

Um.....why the hellfires?

[MDZhB]

So, my latest fighter, the Lumia Doll does much better than I expected against the PEGASys D-6. During a 1v1, it can keep stay behind the PEGASys about 80% of the time, keeping it within her crosshairs.

However, the one thing I really want to change is the opening move. The Lumia Doll has 6 heat seeking missiles, and at the beginning of the match she is pointed squarely at the PEGASys at 8km, but doesn't fire any of them. Instead, the AI seems to wait for something to be fired at it, then takes evasive action. As a test, I set my missile and weapon manager settings to be identical to those of the PEGASys, but the same thing happened. Anyone know how to fix this?

Also, thanks for the advice about tweaking the AI, it has certainly helped.

[ZLM-Master]

1 hour ago, Box of Stardust said:

Well, regardless of how they perform, you always build really cool looking ones

ThX , i like your style too , especially your PEGASys Series  Pure line , look really nice !

1 hour ago, Earthlinger said:

Um.....why the hellfires?

Yep , got issue with BDAc 1.2 , not seen from age , when your craft focus a splashed down craft , & can't unlock ^^ put your craft in a dangerous stance for several minute sometimes . Hop . 2 hellfires & next target ^^ ( sometimes 4 hellfires ^^ )

Last time i've seen this was in KSP 1.0.3 ! ( if your remember , my old Rafale got Hellfire )

And yes , even if all weapons are ' Ground Target Disable '

I also like destroying absolutely  everything XD

1 hour ago, MDZhB said:

The Lumia Doll has 6 heat seeking missiles, and at the beginning of the match she is pointed squarely at the PEGASys at 8km, but doesn't fire any of them

You have to deal with the Radar Signature introduce in the last BDAc update ( or 1.1 ... )( check in the SPH Icon Mod ) Aera effect in M² . So if the craft 's got furtive shape , it become more difficult to lock at . If it got ECM jammer ( Radar parasite ) it become MORE difficult to lock at . AIM-120 got ~ 13 KM Lock but poor tracking system .

If you're talking about the long left turn at start , it's a new feature in BDAc , i suppose it's due to the weapon type onto your craft ( not sure )

[Box of Stardust]

6 hours ago, MDZhB said:

So, my latest fighter, the Lumia Doll does much better than I expected against the PEGASys D-6. During a 1v1, it can keep stay behind the PEGASys about 80% of the time, keeping it within her crosshairs.

However, the one thing I really want to change is the opening move. The Lumia Doll has 6 heat seeking missiles, and at the beginning of the match she is pointed squarely at the PEGASys at 8km, but doesn't fire any of them. Instead, the AI seems to wait for something to be fired at it, then takes evasive action. As a test, I set my missile and weapon manager settings to be identical to those of the PEGASys, but the same thing happened. Anyone know how to fix this?

Also, thanks for the advice about tweaking the AI, it has certainly helped.

You've discovered the need for the Pre-Routing Device!

@goduranus invented it because our aircraft are all too thermally and radar stealthy, so now we use GPS-based launches to fire first. 

Have you watched the matches from the BDA 1.0 series? It was a big deal, because 'the merge' was a big killer in the old BDA, with the ultimate cheese strategy of going all guns, and by that, I mean all guns.

@ZLM-Master has a few aircraft with PRDs, and one on my KerbalX is the Basilisk -C3 (which I'm working on a BDA 1.2 version, but it'll function enough for you to pick apart and learn).

[ZLM-Master]

Yop ! Mini Shark is back , ( Huhu )

Spoiler

EDIT :

V-TEK Reboot in the place too !

Spoiler

And my Personal Guard

Spoiler

Build Mania ^^ Support Guard !

Spoiler

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by ZLM-Master

[Dimas152]

tfw ppls start making mini drones with cockpits made out of solar panels and mini fuel tanks instead of manned fighters

[Box of Stardust]

@ZLM-Master ... how different are all of your planes from each other anyways? Sure, they're somewhat structurally different and therefore a little aerodynamically different, but... that's a lot of pretty similar aircraft. 

For me, even though PEGASys-D and Basilisk are mostly built similarly, Basilisk has more thrust and more guns, in addition to slightly different aerodynamics and flight programming on its control surfaces. 

I'm just saying... you might want to trim down your entry list of aircraft that are too similar to each other. I can't imagine that all of your aircraft perform that much differently from each other. Just pick the best ones.

[ZLM-Master]

@Box of Stardust You right , too enthusiast building session  

So , Keep 3 crafts :

- X-Fighter - Hunter Versatile craft

- ZLM's Support Light Guard Mono light engine craft

- Mini Shark III Fake Jet-Fighter

Should be enough ^^

2 hours ago, [INDO]dimas_1502 said:

tfw ppls start making mini drones with cockpits made out of solar panels and mini fuel tanks instead of manned fighters

Just not enough manned craft for a separate leaderboard , so drone leaderboard mastering the season ! i'll be happy to see more manned aircrafts , got some ones to submit ! If you have a good jet-fighter to submit ; the manned leaderboard may growing up !

[Box of Stardust]

11 minutes ago, ZLM-Master said:

@Box of Stardust You right , too enthusiast building session  

So , Keep 3 crafts :

- X-Fighter - Hunter Versatile craft

- ZLM's Support Light Guard Mono light engine craft

- Mini Shark III Fake Jet-Fighter

Should be enough ^^

Just not enough manned craft for a separate leaderboard , so drone leaderboard mastering the season ! i'll be happy to see more manned aircrafts , got some ones to submit ! If you have a good jet-fighter to submit ; the manned leaderboard may growing up !

I'll let you pick one more, since the Hunter was already in the queue.

[ZLM-Master]

Yopyop  For my last entry , i submit a manned Jet-Fighter . Tweaked against your PEGASys-D6 , not really for beat it but to force me to maximise performances , it can handle it a bit with a good opening but not more

Spoiler

 

The ZPF Sir !

[Box of Stardust]

I actually have a few manned fighters, but none of them can fight up against most of my drones. The drones are just too quick and small.

I guess I'll throw them into the mix later, maybe start up the manned leaderboard again. 

[Guest]

On 6/22/2018 at 6:31 PM, ZLM-Master said:

Yopyop  For my last entry , i submit a manned Jet-Fighter . Tweaked against your PEGASys-D6 , not really for beat it but to force me to maximise performances , it can handle it a bit with a good opening but not more

  Hide contents

 

 

The ZPF Sir !

50 cal? Seriously?

[Box of Stardust]

Season won't fully start yet, at least in terms of frequency of battles, but I'd figure I'd at least get the queue start to roll.

So first up, the first plane submitted for BDA 1.4 was... @dundun92's HogMaster. A joke of a flying brick with lots of GAU-8s.

And the second plane submitted was @ZLM-Master's X-Fighter Hunter, a small drone that's got all of ASC's usual things.

Battle:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

Yeah... uh, HogMaster is a really heavy brick of a plane that can't maneuver. In BDA 1.2, that's a big issue, because the AI has gotten a lot smarter. It no longer gets planes into head-on passes, and what few head-on passes do occur are not done in a suicidal manner. The AI instead much prefers to maneuver around.

Not to mention the now-ASC-classic routing device to completely ward-off any head-on passes. Though, HogMaster runs hot anyways and would likely have been shot at by Sidewinders before being able to do any kind of significant damage in a merge anyways.

Against the small X-Fighters and the routing device, the HogMasters just couldn't do anything.

 

Okay, that was... a pretty lame start to the new ASC series. Everyone's here for dogfighting, so I ran the next plane that was listed on the queue:

PEGASys-D6. (I reserved that spot a while ago since I had the plane made, but was just tuning it right before I released it...) It goes on offense against @ZLM-Master's X-Fighter Hunter.

Oh, and note: these battles were sped up to 170% of original recorded speed. New BDA... makes some battles last really long.

Battle:

Spoiler

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

So...

This is what happens when hyper-drones fight now.

Due to the probability of combat dragging out now, aircraft that run out of fuel but are otherwise fully operable or count as a surviving/flight-worthy aircraft (something like retaining 60-70% of original part count) will not be counted as a loss if they can presumably survive to a landing intact. The last sortie specifically was counted as no-loss for PEGASys since they were all flight-worthy even if out of fuel, and the X-Fighter would not be able to get a kill on them since it was still being chased down, even if by aircraft out of ammo that could themselves not kill the last X-Fighter.

Also, there's some judging calls here that didn't count as a kill since a crash occurred that was probably not due to enemy action, but of course still counts as a lost aircraft against the reserve count.

 

As for the aircraft themselves... I have never seen an aircraft so prone to friendly fire as the X-Fighter Hunter. Like... 50% or more of its Sidewinder shots that landed must have hit one of their own team rather than a PEGASys. But at least it has an uncanny ability to absorb missile hits. Maybe the small size has something to do with it, as well as the range of the proximity detonation fuses of the Sidewinders.

Speaking of surviving hits, the PEGASys-D6 itself is no easy target either, showing that it, too, is able to survive multiple missile hits... as well as the occasional launch failure of a Sidewinder against itself. But the most impressive display of its survivability was the heavily damaged PEGASys with a completely screwed up engine section... which flew to the end of that match and actually got the only confirmed kill of that sortie. Gone are the spontaneous aircraft disintegration from BDA 1.0. Welcome to a new BDA where aircraft design matters more than just how it flies, but also how it takes hits.

The Hunter, despite being able to absorb or avoid damage, was unable to achieve any supremacy against the D6. The Hunter's small size and squirrely nature buy it lots and lots and lots of time, but most of that it just spent running away. It does appear to have a maneuverability edge over the D6, able to pull tighter turns, but the D6 was able to stay behind the Hunter regardless, and escape the Hunter's sights when being chased.

AI tuning maybe? While I've already said that the AI is much more inclined to maneuver in BDA 1.2... I've actually noticed that it does more than just 'maneuver'... a properly tuned AI can actually execute pseudo-Pugachev's Cobras, and this seems by design. It will sharply pitch up which will cause it to airbrake hard, then cause an overshoot.

At least, I think the AI is intended to be able to behave this way. Aircraft design might also play a part in allowing the AI to pull these maneuvers off.

Speaking of AI tuning, though the Hunter may be able to pitch harder, it appears that that is its only maneuverability advantage over the D6. What the D6 loses in extreme pitch capability, it makes up for being much more composed and in control in all other flight axes, especially roll control. Not just this, but there's an important connection between flight dynamics and survivability: the Hunter may be able to survive taking hits, it does so at the cost of its Delta Deluxe wings, and losing one or more of these wings is very detrimental to the Hunter's already tenuous flight control. That's why it's only able to run most of the time- after being damaged, it really struggles to point itself precisely in the direction it needs to, which in BDA 1.2 with maneuvering AI, is very, very important. Meanwhile, the D6 is designed with way more lift surface (though not evident since they're all clipped into each other), and any damage to lift surfaces isn't as apparent since it's still able to maintain good stability and precise control.

The X-Fighter, through all three battles, was incapable of maintaining any kind of offense against the D6. Even when they had a 3v2 advantage, the PEGASys were able to hold on and eventually level the count, at which point the scales tipped back to the PEGASys. The Hunter's routing device was a non-factor, thanks to the smarter, more aggressive AI; the D6s were momentarily inconvenienced, but were mostly able to dodge any attacks that came after firing the routing device.

The X-Fighter put up a great maneuvering battle, never losing a full flight of 3 during a sortie. However, the PEGASys just maintained control of every match, and takes the win.

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Guest]

...

Well, I knida expected that to happen...

[Guest]

I call it, sir sup

[ZLM-Master]

... Defeated by the Boss ... again ^^ Mouarf XD , well , hunter still better but not enough . Haha !

@Box of Stardust I notice that after watching all movie that your BDAc seems not working properly , ( I'm not contest the result ) But all the test i've made are mostly all finish by  out of fuel ( like you ) but out of ammo too , where on your computer AI seems to not use Vulcans properly ^^ Hunter not fireing in most case when chasing your craft ( never seen that ) but your D6 not firering too in lot of situation ! Sure you have a bad Mod interaction with BDAc , look like AI use 30% less ammo than my computer !

Just to notice that i no longer use Kerbal Konstruct & Damage Effect , Then BDAc AI accuracy improved !

As i say , i not contest the game result , but can you try with less Mod , especially for Dog-fighting Contest .

Yep , except than i know that fighting against the PEGASys will be  hard . Both craft are fast & have great maneuverability . As you say . A good among of lifting surface can make the difference on a long battle ^^

Btw , Thx for upload . & Nice day on Kerbin .

[Box of Stardust]

3 hours ago, ZLM-Master said:

... Defeated by the Boss ... again ^^ Mouarf XD , well , hunter still better but not enough . Haha !

@Box of Stardust I notice that after watching all movie that your BDAc seems not working properly , ( I'm not contest the result ) But all the test i've made are mostly all finish by  out of fuel ( like you ) but out of ammo too , where on your computer AI seems to not use Vulcans properly ^^ Hunter not fireing in most case when chasing your craft ( never seen that ) but your D6 not firering too in lot of situation ! Sure you have a bad Mod interaction with BDAc , look like AI use 30% less ammo than my computer !

Just to notice that i no longer use Kerbal Konstruct & Damage Effect , Then BDAc AI accuracy improved !

As i say , i not contest the game result , but can you try with less Mod , especially for Dog-fighting Contest .

Yep , except than i know that fighting against the PEGASys will be  hard . Both craft are fast & have great maneuverability . As you say . A good among of lifting surface can make the difference on a long battle ^^

Btw , Thx for upload . & Nice day on Kerbin .

So I ran the battles again without KerbalKonstruct. The guns did get better, and there was maybe less friendly fire, and the X-Fighter was able to get some control over the battle more often. PEGASys still won every battle 2-1 though, before fuel and/or ammo ran out.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[ZLM-Master]

Ok . thx , wanna  know your feeling about KK and BDAc , if it's just me or if there really bad interact witin this mod ! Well , i'm fine with the game result  PEGASys still a bit better anyway