Helium-3 and mining it for fusion engines discussion

[GoldForest]

16 minutes ago, Technical Ben said:

A single atom does not an atmosphere make. That seems to be the confusion.

Scientists called the single hydrogen atom they found part of earth's atmosphere... so... your statement is invalid. You should always trust the scientist, especially the Nasa ones.   

[Technical Ben]

29 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Scientists called the single hydrogen atom they found part of earth's atmosphere... so... your statement is invalid. You should always trust the scientist, especially the Nasa ones.   

Part of.

A fleck of skin is part of your body. But your body does not extend to the carpet.

[GoldForest]

4 minutes ago, Technical Ben said:

Part of.

A fleck of skin is part of your body. But your body does not extend to the carpet.

I know, and that analogy doesn't really work in my mind. 

The atom is a part of the atmosphere, and therefore the atmosphere extends to or past that atom. 

[Technical Ben]

17 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

I know, and that analogy doesn't really work in my mind. 

The atom is a part of the atmosphere, and therefore the atmosphere extends to or past that atom. 

Not really. Atoms can get anywhere. Is it affected by the atmosphere? Is there any pressure? Heat/energy exchange?

Will is degrade orbits? Yep, but 1 atom at a time... which is very very slow. I'm not sure you realise how small and insignificant a single atom is to a satellites orbit. Or to fuel collection.

A ltr of air is... I cannot even type the number of atoms.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=0.045+moles&assumption="ClashPrefs"+->+""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_(unit)

[edit]

There, it's  2.4 × 10²² molecules...  atoms in 1 liter. At 1 atom a second, if collecting 1 atom of "atmosphere" in lunar orbit range, it would take 55,000 times the age of the *universe* to collect 1 liter of air...

 

Like...

It's...

Not...

"Atmosphere" up that far. XD

Edited August 28, 2019 by Technical Ben

[GoldForest]

7 minutes ago, Technical Ben said:

Not really. Atoms can get anywhere. Is it affected by the atmosphere? Is there any pressure? Heat/energy exchange?

Will is degrade orbits? Yep, but 1 atom at a time... which is very very slow. I'm not sure you realise how small and insignificant a single atom is to a satellites orbit. Or to fuel collection.

A ltr of air is... I cannot even type the number of atoms.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=0.045+moles&assumption="ClashPrefs"+->+""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_(unit)

 

Atoms can get anywhere but Nasa scientist call it a part of Earth's atmosphere and therefore the atmosphere extends to or past that atom.

https://www.sciencealert.com/earth-s-atmosphere-is-so-big-that-it-actually-engulfs-the-moon

 

[Technical Ben]

Just now, GoldForest said:

Atoms can get anywhere but Nasa scientist call it a part of Earth's atmosphere and therefore the atmosphere extends to or past that atom.

https://www.sciencealert.com/earth-s-atmosphere-is-so-big-that-it-actually-engulfs-the-moon

 

Yes. Part. Not "The" atmosphere. See my comment above.

 

Try to look and learn about it. You seem to think that the atmosphere is up there. It's only *part* of it... 1 atom of it part. For the game, and for just about any form of calculation, it's too small to worry about. For NASA? Yeah, they can compute and work with single atoms if they wish.

We are not getting single atoms worth of anything in KSP.

 

[GoldForest]

2 minutes ago, Technical Ben said:

Yes. Part. Not "The" atmosphere. See my comment above.

 

Try to look and learn about it. You seem to think that the atmosphere is up there. It's only *part* of it... 1 atom of it part. For the game, and for just about any form of calculation, it's too small to worry about. For NASA? Yeah, they can compute and work with single atoms if they wish.

We are not getting single atoms worth of anything in KSP.

 

Oh, I thought we were talking about IRL the whole time. 

Well, we don't have to worry about atoms, yes, but in game KSP's atmosphere can be two layers I feel. The 'Hard' layer and 'Soft' layer. 

The hard layer goes up to the 70KM line and the Soft layer goes up to around 200KM to 300KM, where at 200KM you can gain tons of elements per hour and at 300km you're basically scooping up 0.01 of a tank per orbit. 

[Technical Ben]

13 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Oh, I thought we were talking about IRL the whole time. 

Well, we don't have to worry about atoms, yes, but in game KSP's atmosphere can be two layers I feel. The 'Hard' layer and 'Soft' layer. 

The hard layer goes up to the 70KM line and the Soft layer goes up to around 200KM to 300KM, where at 200KM you can gain tons of elements per hour and at 300km you're basically scooping up 0.01 of a tank per orbit. 

It's not soft at that level. IRL it's 1 atom a meter, or less. The change and "soft" layer, would take *longer than the age of the universe" to effect a craft, in game, or in real life. Other effects will  slow it down before that.

You won't get 0.01 of a tank. You'd get nothing. Zip. Nada... not zero, but you'd get 1mm dv after 100s of years.

[KerikBalm]

1 hour ago, GoldForest said:

Scientists called the single hydrogen atom they found part of earth's atmosphere... so... your statement is invalid. You should always trust the scientist, especially the Nasa ones.   

No, one person speaking to the lay media does not define the term.

Within scientific circles, they'd refer to it as the exosphere.

[kerbiloid]

Have no idea about ³He in KSP-2, but:

1. Build a coastal seawater refinery.
2. Produce filters (mostly plastic, for lithium - also titanium).
3. Start filtering the ocean through the filters.
4. Collect Li, U, and other dissolved stuff.
5. Enrich U, make a fuel for a fission reactor.
6. Separate Li to 6 and 7 (may be omitted in game).
7. Run the reactor. (Say, to power your refinery).
8. Put ⁶Li into the reactor.
9. Watch how the ⁶Li is being irradiated and splits into ³H and ⁴He.
10. Wait.
11. Take the irradiated Li, extract ³H (i.e. tritium), bind it as a metal hydride.
12. Put this metal tritide into a hermetic tank with an exhaust pipe..
13. While tritium is decaying into noble ³He, collect the ³He from the exhaust pipe.
14. 12 years later a half of the tritium will become ³He.
15. Take out the rest of the tritide, use the remaining tritium on its own.

16. Search celestial bodies with a lot of lithium.
17. Continue mining the lithium, irradiating it in a reactor, extracting tritium, waiting and collecting helium-3.

P.S.
To mine 1 g of ³He on the Moon you must exttract and fry at least 100 t of regolith.
To produce it from seawater you need a reactor and at least 2 g of ⁶Li, i.e. 2 / 7.5% ~30 g of natural Li, i.e. from a barrel of a special salt lake water, to 30 t of regular lithium-poor water.
 

Edited August 28, 2019 by kerbiloid

[techgamer16]

In real life, Helium-3 is vastly present on the Earth's Moon, so maybe they will implement the ability to gather it from the Moon's analogue in KSP2??

[GoldForest]

8 minutes ago, techgamer16 said:

In real life, Helium-3 is vastly present on the Earth's Moon, so maybe they will implement the ability to gather it from the Moon's analogue in KSP2??

I had to look this up. Apparently the moon does indeed have large quantities of Helium-3 due to the solar winds. 

[techgamer16]

3 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

I had to look this up. Apparently the moon does indeed have large quantities of Helium-3 due to the solar winds. 

Not as much as the gas giants though, apparently.

[kerbiloid]

Lunar He-3 is 1 g per 100 t of regolith.
(In richest places.)

Edited August 28, 2019 by kerbiloid

[panzer1b]

I was under the impression that the best way to get helium-3 is to steal it from the moon dweller's mines...

[GoldForest]

8 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Lunar He-3 is 1 g per 100 t of regolith.
(In richest places.)

That is highly inefficient.

[juanml82]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Have no idea about ³He in KSP-2, but:

1. Build a coastal seawater refinery.
2. Produce filters (mostly plastic, for lithium - also titanium).
3. Start filtering the ocean through the filters.
4. Collect Li, U, and other dissolved stuff.
5. Enrich U, make a fuel for a fission reactor.
6. Separate Li to 6 and 7 (may be omitted in game).
7. Run the reactor. (Say, to power your refinery).
8. Put ⁶Li into the reactor.
9. Watch how the ⁶Li is being irradiated and splits into ³H and ⁴He.
10. Wait.
11. Take the irradiated Li, extract ³H (i.e. tritium), bind it as a metal hydride.
12. Put this metal tritide into a hermetic tank with an exhaust pipe..
13. While tritium is decaying into noble ³He, collect the ³He from the exhaust pipe.
14. 12 years later a half of the tritium will become ³He.
15. Take out the rest of the tritide, use the remaining tritium on its own.

16. Search celestial bodies with a lot of lithium.
17. Continue mining the lithium, irradiating it in a reactor, extracting tritium, waiting and collecting helium-3.

P.S.
To mine 1 g of ³He on the Moon you must exttract and fry at least 100 t of regolith.
To produce it from seawater you need a reactor and at least 2 g of ⁶Li, i.e. 2 / 7.5% ~30 g of natural Li, i.e. from a barrel of a special salt lake water, to 30 t of regular lithium-poor water.
 

Too complex. It reminds me of KSPI-E and its interminable list of fuels and no clear in game explanation (because there is no adequate gui other than the KSPedia) regarding which one to use. I want to play a game, not to browse forums for answers.

[kerbiloid]

6 hours ago, juanml82 said:

Too complex.

More complex than diving into Jupiter atmosphere, gathering the most volatile and "undense" gases from a hurricane, getting back to orbit at 40 km/s orbital speed?
Or than gathering and frying 100 t of regolith on the Moon per every gram of ³He.

Instead of just sitting, fishing, washing nets, and waiting?

6 hours ago, panzer1b said:

I was under the impression that the best way to get helium-3 is to steal it from the moon dweller's mines...

It one of the worst ways. Just a good PR. A coastal refinery is by orders of magnitude more effective, but looks less impressive.

Edited August 29, 2019 by kerbiloid

[GoldForest]

18 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

More complex than diving into Jupiter atmosphere, gathering the most volatile and "undense" gases from a hurricane, getting back to orbit at 40 km/s orbital speed?
Or than gathering and frying 100 t of regolith on the Moon per every gram of ³He.

Instead of just sitting, fishing, washing nets, and waiting?

It one of the worst ways. Just a good PR. A coastal refinery is by orders of magnitude more effective, but looks less impressive.

I think the best way to mine Helium without using probes or spacecraft is to setup an array of Fusion Reactors designed to fuse Hydrogen into Helium, then the helium get refined into Helium-3. 

[Xd the great]

29 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

I think the best way to mine Helium without using probes or spacecraft is to setup an array of Fusion Reactors designed to fuse Hydrogen into Helium, then the helium get refined into Helium-3. 

Nope, fusion only produces He-4, not He-3.

[GoldForest]

11 minutes ago, Xd the great said:

Nope, fusion only produces He-4, not He-3.

No, I just found out you can produce He-3 through fusion reactors, deuterium fusion reactors would produce He-3. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by GoldForest

[kerbiloid]

12 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

No, I just found out you can produce He-3 through fusion reactors, deuterium fusion reactors would produce He-3. 

This is nice when you already have D+D fusion reactors.

But He-3 + D fusion gets actual before that.
And unlike D+D you can start manufacturing He-3 from seawater right now.

Also, amounts are hardly comparable. Don't forget that a fusion reactor advantage is in low amount of fuel required.
So, same low is the produced by-product.

Edited August 29, 2019 by kerbiloid

[GoldForest]

1 minute ago, kerbiloid said:

This is nice when you already have D+D fusion reactors.

But He-3 + D fusion gets actual before that.
And unlike D+D you can start manufacturing He-3 from seawater right now.

Also, amounts are hardly comparable. Don't forget that a fusion reactor advantage is in low amount of fuel required.
So, as low is the produced by-product.

I read that He-3 + D produces regular Helium, and we want to keep the He-3 for the fusion engines, so you don't want He-3 + D, unless you are using it in the engine than that's fine. 

Also, seawater? What?

[Incarnation of Chaos]

16 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

This is nice when you already have D+D fusion reactors.

But He-3 + D fusion gets actual before that.
And unlike D+D you can start manufacturing He-3 from seawater right now.

Also, amounts are hardly comparable. Don't forget that a fusion reactor advantage is in low amount of fuel required.
So, same low is the produced by-product.

Deuterium is heavy water......it's commonly obtained via electrolysis of normal water because for some reason electrolysis makes it significantly easier to seperate...and this was being done in the 1930s. D-D fusion does require more heat; but could be bootstrapped from D-T fusion. Overall I don't think any single source will end up dominating; multiple processes will need to be ramped up and optimized.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water

But the idea of a massive fission-fusion industrial complex on the sea isn't that far from what would happen. Since your ultimate feedstock ends up coming from the same source; combining the production streams just becomes natural.

[kerbiloid]

1 minute ago, GoldForest said:

I read that He-3 + D produces regular Helium, and we want to keep the He-3 for the fusion engines, so you don't want He-3 + D, unless you are using it in the engine than that's fine. 

He-3 + D reactor is aneutronic, and is required before you can use pure D reactors.
So, you should start spending He-3 before you can start producing He-3 from D.

3 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Also, seawater? What?

As I described above. Not the seawater itself, of course, but lithium. Seawater has a lot of it.

Natural lithium consists of two isotopes: Li-6 and Li-7.
Li-6 being irradiated by neutrons, splits into Tritium and Helium-4.
Tritium naturally inevitable decays (halflife ~ 12 years) into the desired Helium-3.

So, you should get as much lithium-6 as you can, expose it in a reactor, then put it in a can and just keep waiting and collecting the naturally exhausting from the can Helium-3.
You don't need special reactors for that, you can put the Lithium into existing ones, as a passenger.

***

On the Earth Lithium is usually mined in several special salt lakes in South America where it's concentration is ~0.01..1% of mass.
But as the lakes are limited, you should better mine it from any available water, i.e. mostly from the seawater. Its concentration in the natural water is ~0.3..3 mg/kg.

As the Lithium is lightweight, its two isotopes have very different mass (6 vs 7), so it's many times easier to separate lithium isotopes than, say, uranium ones. Not a problem at all.
(Though in game the separation and different Lithium isotopes can be ignored, just productivity of the plant should be decreased, so it can be single resource - Lithium).

***

In addition to lithium, seawater contains other resources dissolved. Particularly, Uranium, used in reactors and nuclear engines.
Their extraction is same, so no need to distinguish it in game. Just a plant requiring presence of water and producing Lithium, Uranium, etc..

***

The extraction process is basically simple.
There is an aquatory with strong natural flow (a straight or so), to save power. (In game - just any sea aquatory).

In the aquatory there is a field of floating plastic nets, hanging tens meters below the water.
Just a huge artificial plastic washcloth.

Depending on resources being extracted, the nets may contain additional fibers like titanium ones, etc.
In game no need in such detalization.

The seawater flows through the nets, dissolved ions (of Lithium, Uranium, etc) react with the net fibers and stay there.

From time to time you take away a "dirty" net, replacing it with a clean one.
Then you wash the "dirty" net with chemicals, and return the washed net back to the plantation.
Then you chemically extract the required Li, U, etc from the collected "dirty" water, and start processsing them as described.
(No need to show all this in game.)

***

So, you should collect Lithium from any available source, just seawater is the most easy and available.

Then you can produce as much Helium-3 from this lithium as you wish, without Moon mining or Jupiter diving.