[1.12+] Less Real Than Real(ism) - RP-1 With Less 'R' [v2.0.6]

[FabioofSpace]

So, I got 12 errors all originating from the rescale.cfg. Here are the logs and mod list in a file
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kCnLgO3mv4Lx7lRr1MJtmh0b1o7ARZpd/view?usp=sharing

[Pehvbot]

18 hours ago, FabioofSpace said:

So, I got 12 errors all originating from the rescale.cfg. Here are the logs and mod list in a file
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kCnLgO3mv4Lx7lRr1MJtmh0b1o7ARZpd/view?usp=sharing

It looks like it's coming from the SSTU mod for the SC-ENG-SRB-A and SC-ENG-SRB-U parts.  It's because the cfg file for these parts is slightly misconfigured (the upgrades don't define the maximum thrust for each upgrade).  This is probably fine for stock installs but when you try to adjust the thrust for RSS, it fails. 

A quick and dirty fix is to exclude these parts from rescaling by adding this to a custom .cfg file (if you are not sure how to do this let me know).  They won't be useable but it shouldn't affect anything else. 

@PART[SSTU-SC-ENG-SRB-A|SSTU-SC-ENG-SRB-U]:BEFORE[zLRTR]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleTagNotRescaled
	}
}

I'll add the proper fix for this in the next update.

[Pehvbot]

On 7/29/2020 at 2:34 AM, FabioofSpace said:

So, I got 12 errors all originating from the rescale.cfg. Here are the logs and mod list in a file
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kCnLgO3mv4Lx7lRr1MJtmh0b1o7ARZpd/view?usp=sharing

So I've been digging into the SSTU mod a bit.  It uses a bunch of custom modules internally.  In particular it uses a module that 'builds' some parts out of several models, so you can change the look or features of a part in the VAB.

The rescaler can't adjust the size of these internal models which means these parts won't rescale properly.  The parts will look like they have gaps in them and won't be the right size.  There may be other issues with this mod as well. 

Unfortunately this means either not using the mod or using SMURFF.  If you install SMURFF, it will disable the rescaler and (hopefully) adjust all the installed mods to work at Kerbal size at RSS scale.

[boribori]

I just started playing LRTR (with Kopernicus Bleeding Edge on 1.10.1) and so far I love it, but I have a few questions/issues:

1. I see this in my log:

   [LRTR]: Patching failed: with error , exception System.IO.DirectoryNotFoundException: Could not find a part of the path '/home/boris/Games/KSP/KSP_linux/GameData/LRTR/pluginData/Screens'.
     at System.IO.__Error.WinIOError (System.Int32 errorCode, System.String maybeFullPath) [0x000f7] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.FileSystemEnumerableIterator`1[TSource].HandleError (System.Int32 hr, System.String path) [0x00006] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.FileSystemEnumerableIterator`1[TSource].CommonInit () [0x00054] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.FileSystemEnumerableIterator`1[TSource]..ctor (System.String path, System.String originalUserPath, System.String searchPattern, System.IO.SearchOption searchOption, System.IO.SearchResultHandler`1[TSource] resultHandler, System.Boolean checkHost) [0x000d6] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.FileSystemEnumerableFactory.CreateFileNameIterator (System.String path, System.String originalUserPath, System.String searchPattern, System.Boolean includeFiles, System.Boolean includeDirs, System.IO.SearchOption searchOption, System.Boolean checkHost) [0x00009] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.Directory.InternalGetFileDirectoryNames (System.String path, System.String userPathOriginal, System.String searchPattern, System.Boolean includeFiles, System.Boolean includeDirs, System.IO.SearchOption searchOption, System.Boolean checkHost) [0x00000] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.Directory.InternalGetFiles (System.String path, System.String searchPattern, System.IO.SearchOption searchOption) [0x00000] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.Directory.GetFiles (System.String path, System.String searchPattern) [0x0001c] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.DirectoryInfo.GetFiles (System.String searchPattern) [0x0000e] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.DirectoryInfo.GetFiles () [0x00000] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at (wrapper remoting-invoke-with-check) System.IO.DirectoryInfo.GetFiles()
     at LRTR.LoadingScreenChanger.Update () [0x00084] in <7e7701d9b5df4cf584cc5ed415df92ff>:0 

   Is that a problem? (I do get some crashes, but I don't think it's related to this. Full Player.log just in case.)

2. How is Mechjeb tied into the tech tree and facility upgrades? Is that a question for LRTR or for RO/RP-1?

3. KCT is not working as I am used to, no faster building with recovered parts, etc. Is that expected behaviour? Does it have something to do with the LRTR config for KCT, did this originate in RO/RP-1? (I read the KCT guide but I cannot figure out what the LRTR formulas do.)

Thanks!

[Pehvbot]

23 hours ago, boribori said:

I just started playing LRTR (with Kopernicus Bleeding Edge on 1.10.1) and so far I love it, but I have a few questions/issues:

1. I see this in my log:

   
   [LRTR]: Patching failed: with error , exception System.IO.DirectoryNotFoundException: Could not find a part of the path '/home/boris/Games/KSP/KSP_linux/GameData/LRTR/pluginData/Screens'.
     at System.IO.__Error.WinIOError (System.Int32 errorCode, System.String maybeFullPath) [0x000f7] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.FileSystemEnumerableIterator`1[TSource].HandleError (System.Int32 hr, System.String path) [0x00006] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.FileSystemEnumerableIterator`1[TSource].CommonInit () [0x00054] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.FileSystemEnumerableIterator`1[TSource]..ctor (System.String path, System.String originalUserPath, System.String searchPattern, System.IO.SearchOption searchOption, System.IO.SearchResultHandler`1[TSource] resultHandler, System.Boolean checkHost) [0x000d6] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.FileSystemEnumerableFactory.CreateFileNameIterator (System.String path, System.String originalUserPath, System.String searchPattern, System.Boolean includeFiles, System.Boolean includeDirs, System.IO.SearchOption searchOption, System.Boolean checkHost) [0x00009] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.Directory.InternalGetFileDirectoryNames (System.String path, System.String userPathOriginal, System.String searchPattern, System.Boolean includeFiles, System.Boolean includeDirs, System.IO.SearchOption searchOption, System.Boolean checkHost) [0x00000] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.Directory.InternalGetFiles (System.String path, System.String searchPattern, System.IO.SearchOption searchOption) [0x00000] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.Directory.GetFiles (System.String path, System.String searchPattern) [0x0001c] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.DirectoryInfo.GetFiles (System.String searchPattern) [0x0000e] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at System.IO.DirectoryInfo.GetFiles () [0x00000] in <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0 
     at (wrapper remoting-invoke-with-check) System.IO.DirectoryInfo.GetFiles()
     at LRTR.LoadingScreenChanger.Update () [0x00084] in <7e7701d9b5df4cf584cc5ed415df92ff>:0 

   Is that a problem? (I do get some crashes, but I don't think it's related to this. Full Player.log just in case.)

2. How is Mechjeb tied into the tech tree and facility upgrades? Is that a question for LRTR or for RO/RP-1?

3. KCT is not working as I am used to, no faster building with recovered parts, etc. Is that expected behaviour? Does it have something to do with the LRTR config for KCT, did this originate in RO/RP-1? (I read the KCT guide but I cannot figure out what the LRTR formulas do.)

Thanks!

1) I never tested this on a Linux box.  If I had to guess I would say it's a case-sensitivity error.  If the Linux version is case sensitive, it's looking for pluginData rather than the existing PluginData.  Try changing the name of the file '/home/boris/Games/KSP/KSP_linux/GameData/LRTR/PluginData' to (lower case p) pluginData.  If that works please let me know and I'll fix it in the next version.

2) This is from me.  It comes from the LRTR/support/mechjeb.cfg file and follows the 'avionics' branch of the tech tree.  If you use a different tech tree it disables these.  Did you want an 'always complete' mechjeb?  I never use it so I just added barebones support.  It should be pretty easy to change the cfg to make fully active a config option.

3) Yep, that's the way it was set up.  It uses a slightly modified version of the RP-1 config.  Although it's hard coded to load this by default, you can definitely change it back to the KCT stock, or any other version by right clicking on the KCT ribbon icon and opening up the settings.  One thing to note though, the stock config is is set up for Kerbin timescales rather than Earth timescales.

 

[boribori]

1 hour ago, Pehvbot said:

1) I never tested this on a Linux box.  If I had to guess I would say it's a case-sensitivity error.  If the Linux version is case sensitive, it's looking for pluginData rather than the existing PluginData.  Try changing the name of the file '/home/boris/Games/KSP/KSP_linux/GameData/LRTR/PluginData' to (lower case p) pluginData.  If that works please let me know and I'll fix it in the next version.

2) This is from me.  It comes from the LRTR/support/mechjeb.cfg file and follows the 'avionics' branch of the tech tree.  If you use a different tech tree it disables these.  Did you want an 'always complete' mechjeb?  I never use it so I just added barebones support.  It should be pretty easy to change the cfg to make fully active a config option.

3) Yep, that's the way it was set up.  It uses a slightly modified version of the RP-1 config.  Although it's hard coded to load this by default, you can definitely change it back to the KCT stock, or any other version by right clicking on the KCT ribbon icon and opening up the settings.  One thing to note though, the stock config is is set up for Kerbin timescales rather than Earth timescales.

 

1. Yes, that was it! And some of those screen texts were actually quite helpful Thanks!
2. I found the tree config and now I know what to research first. I initially thought I couldn't get any rockets in the air just because I hadn't played early career in ages and wasn't used to launching without ascension guidance. Now however I fear it is because of FAR. When you start there seems no possibility to build an aerodynamic rocket. The only option seems to be the Stayputnik. Is that correct?
3. I first want to play LRTR as it was intended before I start changing too much, but eventually I will probably want to write my own KCT formulas. Do you have a document somewhere that explains what your formulas do? I find this document https://github.com/magico13/KCT/wiki/Preset-Formulas-and-Math-Parser-Documentation very difficult to read.

[Pehvbot]

7 minutes ago, boribori said:

1. Yes, that was it! And some of those screen texts were actually quite helpful Thanks!
2. I found the tree config and now I know what to research first. I initially thought I couldn't get any rockets in the air just because I hadn't played early career in ages and wasn't used to launching without ascension guidance. Now however I fear it is because of FAR. When you start there seems no possibility to build an aerodynamic rocket. The only option seems to be the Stayputnik. Is that correct?
3. I first want to play LRTR as it was intended before I start changing too much, but eventually I will probably want to write my own KCT formulas. Do you have a document somewhere that explains what your formulas do? I find this document https://github.com/magico13/KCT/wiki/Preset-Formulas-and-Math-Parser-Documentation very difficult to read.

1) Glad it worked!  I'll fix it for the next version.

2) Yes, in stock, the stayputnik is the only option.  Really, the only starting option in stock is a stayputnik with a small SRB and some fins.  I call it my 'bottle rocket' era :-) 

I never tested it with FAR and it's not clear to me how rescaled aerodynamic parts will work.  I'll add it to my 'things to test' pile.  You could play with the number/placement of fins and adjust the thrust of the SRB motor so see if you can get a viable rocket.

If you want some more flexibility you can add Completely Non-Aggressive Rocketry.  It gives you a V-2 like rocket from the start and works well with the mod.

 

3) KCT configs are a bit black magic to me.  I took this directly from the RP-1 folks and I modded it a bit for LRTR.  You will likely need to ask the folks over there or KCT for guidance.  

 

Oh, and thanks for the feedback!  I took a look at the mods you added from the discussion thread and will add them to the supported list when I can.

[boribori]

14 minutes ago, Pehvbot said:

2) Yes, in stock, the stayputnik is the only option.  Really, the only starting option in stock is a stayputnik with a small SRB and some fins.  I call it my 'bottle rocket' era :-) 

I never tested it with FAR and it's not clear to me how rescaled aerodynamic parts will work.  I'll add it to my 'things to test' pile.  You could play with the number/placement of fins and adjust the thrust of the SRB motor so see if you can get a viable rocket.

If you want some more flexibility you can add Completely Non-Aggressive Rocketry.  It gives you a V-2 like rocket from the start and works well with the mod.

 

I don't know much about the inner workings of FAR, but I've been using it for years. I guess the RO tree and parts are all optimized for FAR. I think something like the Stayputnik without fairings won't work with FAR, scaled or not scaled
I'll try out the V-2.

The full list of mods in my current install:

Action Group Manager Renewed (ActionGroupManager 1:2.2.6.1)
AirlockPlus (AirlockPlus v0.0.11)
All Y'All (AllYAll 1:0.11.19)
Alternate Resource Panel (AlternateResourcePanel 1:v2.10.0.0)
Auto Actions (AutoAction 1.11.1)
B9 Aerospace Procedural Wings - Fork (B9-PWings-Fork 1:v0.93)
B9 Part Switch (B9PartSwitch v2.17.0)
BahamutoD Animation Modules (BDAnimationModules 1:v0.6.5.9)
CapCom - Mission Control On The Go (CapCom 2.11)
Chatterer (Chatterer 0.9.99)
Chatterer Extended (ChattererExtended 0.6.2)
ClickThrough Blocker (ClickThroughBlocker 1:0.1.10.11)
Community Category Kit (CommunityCategoryKit 5.1.0.0)
Community Resource Pack (CommunityResourcePack 1.3.0.0)
Community Trait Icons (CommunityTraitIcons v1.1.1)
Contract Configurator (ContractConfigurator 1.30.3)
Contract Parser (ContractParser 9.0)
Contracts Window + (ContractsWindowPlus 9.4)
Craft Manager (CraftManager 1.2.0)
Crew R&R (CrewQueueTwo 1.1.10.4)
Cryo Tanks (CryoTanks 1.5.2)
Cryo Tanks Core (CryoTanks-Core 1.5.2)
Cryogenic Engines (CryoEngines 1:1.1.4)
Cryogenic Engines - Near Future Aeronautics (CryoEngines-NFAero 1.1.4)
Custom Barn Kit (CustomBarnKit 1.1.21.0)
Deployable Engines Plugin (DeployableEngines 1.2.2)
DMagic Orbital Science (DMagicOrbitalScience 1.4.3)
DMModuleScienceAnimateGeneric (DMagicScienceAnimate v0.23)
Dynamic Battery Storage (DynamicBatteryStorage 2:2.1.9.0)
Easy Vessel Switch (EVS) (EasyVesselSwitch 2.1)
Ferram Aerospace Research Continued (FerramAerospaceResearchContinued 3:0.16.0.0)
Filter Extensions - Default Configuration (FilterExtensionsDefaultConfig 3.2.5)
Filter Extensions - Plugin (FilterExtensions 3.2.5)
Final Frontier (FinalFrontier 1.10.0-3485)
Hangar Extender (HangerExtenderExtended 3.6.0)
Hide Empty Tech Tree Nodes (HideEmptyTechNodes 1.1.2)
HyperEdit (HyperEdit 1.5.8.0)
Kerbal Actuators (KerbalActuators v1.8.3)
Kerbal Alarm Clock (KerbalAlarmClock v3.13.0.0)
Kerbal Atomics (KerbalAtomics 1:1.1.4)
Kerbal Atomics - Other Mod Support (KerbalAtomics-NTRModSupport 1.1.4)
Kerbal Attachment System (KAS 1.7)
Kerbal Changelog (KerbalChangelog v1.3.0)
Kerbal Construction Time (KerbalConstructionTime 1:1.4.8)
Kerbal Engineer Redux (KerbalEngineerRedux 1.1.7.2)
Kerbal Inventory System (KIS 1.26)
Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - Next (KerbalJointReinforcementNext v4.1.15)
Kerbal Stats (KerbalStats 3.1.0)
Kerbalism (Kerbalism 3.11)
Kerbalism - LRTR Config (LRKerbalism-v0.6)
Kopernicus Bleeding Edge Beta - DEV RELEASE (Kopernicus-BE UBEE_1101_29)
KRASH - Kerbal Ramification Artifical Simulation Hub (simulation mod for KSP) (KRASH 0.5.33.2)
KSC Switcher (KSCSwitcher v1.8.0.0)
KSP AVC (KSP-AVC 1.4.1.5)
KSP Rescue Pod Fix (KSPRescuePodFix 1.6.4.14)
KSP Resonant Orbit Calculator (ResonantOrbitCalculator 0.0.6.2)
KSP Wheel (KSPWheel 1:0.16.14.33)
KXAPI (KXAPI 1.2.0)
Less Real Than Real(ism) (LessRealThanReal v1.2)
MagiCore (MagiCore 1.3.2.3)
Mark IV Spaceplane System (MarkIVSpaceplaneSystem 3.1.2)
MechJeb 2 (MechJeb2 2.11.0.0)
Moar Filter Extension Configs (MoarFEConfigs 1.0.5.2)
Module Manager (ModuleManager 4.1.4)
Near Future Aeronautics (NearFutureAeronautics 2.0.0)
Near Future Construction (NearFutureConstruction 1.2.3)
Near Future IVA Props (NearFutureProps 1:0.6.3)
Near Future Propulsion (NearFuturePropulsion 1.2.2)
Near Future Propulsion - Xenon Hall Effect Thrusters (NearFuturePropulsion-XenonHETs 1.2.2)
Near Future Solar (NearFutureSolar 1.2.3)
Near Future Solar Core (NearFutureSolar-Core 1.2.3)
Near Future Spacecraft (NearFutureSpacecraft 1.3.3)
No Crew Requirement Continued (NoCrewRequirementContinued 1.0.5)
OhScrap! (OhScrap 2.1.0.0)
Olympic1's ARP Icons (Olympic1ARPIcons 2:1.0.0.0)
Patch Manager (PatchManager 0.0.17.2)
Portrait Stats (PortraitStats 18.0)
Procedural Parts (ProceduralParts v2.1.0)
Procedural Parts - Ven's Revamp Style Textures (VensStylePPTextures 1.1)
Progress Parser (ProgressParser 11.0)
QuickSearch (QuickSearch 1:3.3.0.10)
RCS Build Aid Continued (RCSBuildAidCont 1:0.10.0)
Real Fuels (RealFuels rf-v12.8.4.1)
Real Plume (RealPlume 2:v13.3.1)
Real Solar System (RealSolarSystem v18.1.3)
Real Solar System Textures - 2048 x 1024 (RSSTextures2048 v18.3)
RealChute Parachute Systems (RealChute v1.4.8)
RealFuels-Stock (RealFuels-Stock v5.1.0)
ReStock (ReStock 1.2.1)
ReStock Extra - Rigid Legs (RestockRigidLegs 1.2.1)
ReStock+ (ReStockPlus 1.2.1)
Retracting/vectoring engines, Critter Crawler (CritterCrawler 1.3.6)
RSS DateTime Formatter (RSSDateTimeFormatter 1.6.1.0)
SCANsat (SCANsat v20.4)
ScrapYard (ScrapYard 2.1.0.0)
Ship Manifest (ShipManifest 6.0.1.0)
Smart Parts (SmartParts 1.9.16)
SmokeScreen - Extended FX Plugin (SmokeScreen 2.8.14.0)
Solver Engines plugin (SolverEngines v3.7.5)
SpaceTux Library (SpaceTuxLibrary 0.0.3.9)
StageRecovery (StageRecovery 1.9.2.2)
Stockalike Station Parts Expansion Redux (StationPartsExpansionRedux 1.3.6)
Talisar Parts (TalisarParts v1.3.0)
Toolbar (Toolbar 1:1.8.0.5)
Toolbar Controller (ToolbarController 1:0.1.9.4)
Transfer Window Planner (TransferWindowPlanner v1.7.2.0)
TriggerAu Flags (TriggerAu-Flags v2.10.0.0)
Universal Storage II (UniversalStorage2 1.9.1.2)
Waypoint Manager (WaypointManager 2.8.2.6)
Zero MiniAVC (ZeroMiniAVC 1:1.1.0.1)

I'll let you know if I find any conflicts with LRTR.



 

[boribori]

@Pehvbot 3 2 things (for now):
 

1. Can you also add the LRTR Kerbalism Config to CKAN, please? I'm afraid if Kerbalism updates it will overwrite your config. (You cannot install Kerbalism through CKAN without choosing one of the configs there)
2. I think the TWR of the BACC "Thumper" is off. In my LRTR install it has a TWR of 1.4, while in stock it is close to 4 and I think in RO it is the equivalent of the Castor 1 which has a TWR of 8.
   I have no clue which code is responsible for this, I assumed it had something to do with rescaling, but while writing this I realise that in my stock install I have Real Fuels Stockalike, while in my LRTR install I have RealFuels-Stock, and now I don't know if that can cause it. I'll try again later with LRTR + Real Fuels Stockalike.
3. I compared with a (borked) RO-RP-1 install and in RO, rockets using recovered parts do get build faster, while in my LRTR install they do not. Do you know where this difference could come from?

Edited October 5, 2020 by boribori
3 was because of borked RO

[Pehvbot]

13 hours ago, boribori said:

@Pehvbot 3 2 things (for now):
 

1. Can you also add the LRTR Kerbalism Config to CKAN, please? I'm afraid if Kerbalism updates it will overwrite your config. (You cannot install Kerbalism through CKAN without choosing one of the configs there)
2. I think the TWR of the BACC "Thumper" is off. In my LRTR install it has a TWR of 1.4, while in stock it is close to 4 and I think in RO it is the equivalent of the Castor 1 which has a TWR of 8.
   I have no clue which code is responsible for this, I assumed it had something to do with rescaling, but while writing this I realise that in my stock install I have Real Fuels Stockalike, while in my LRTR install I have RealFuels-Stock, and now I don't know if that can cause it. I'll try again later with LRTR + Real Fuels Stockalike.
3. I compared with a (borked) RO-RP-1 install and in RO, rockets using recovered parts do get build faster, while in my LRTR install they do not. Do you know where this difference could come from?

1) I'll put the KerbalismConfig CKAN entry on the list but I'm not sure how long this will take.

2) The issues was between RealFuels-Stock and the rescaler code.  LRTR applies a thrust increase for solids on top of the 'normal' increase.  RealFuels handles thrust in a custom module which was being increased normally for all engines but it wasn't getting the additional increase for being a solid as well.  It also wasn't adding enough fuel, so it was both under powered and under fueled.  The latest rescaler.cfg file on the github fixes this.  The results don't quite match RO, but they are much saner.

And thanks for the feedback!  I wouldn't have even looked at this problem.

[boribori]

5 hours ago, Pehvbot said:

2) The issues was between RealFuels-Stock and the rescaler code.  LRTR applies a thrust increase for solids on top of the 'normal' increase.  RealFuels handles thrust in a custom module which was being increased normally for all engines but it wasn't getting the additional increase for being a solid as well.  It also wasn't adding enough fuel, so it was both under powered and under fueled.  The latest rescaler.cfg file on the github fixes this.  The results don't quite match RO, but they are much saner.

And thanks for the feedback!  I wouldn't have even looked at this problem.

I said I would report everything I'd find

At first glance it looks like your fix also affects other engines, not only solid fuel. I'll need to test a bit more to be sure.

Before:

After:

 

Stock-ish (No RSS/LRTR):

 

I don't know how this rescaling works, but I'd guess that the TWR should be similar to stock, and the dV could be higher. If that's the case then it is all good now.

(Now I understand why I couldn't get into orbit )

Edited October 6, 2020 by boribori
tested

[Pehvbot]

12 hours ago, boribori said:

I said I would report everything I'd find

At first glance it looks like your fix also affects other engines, not only solid fuel. I'll need to test a bit more to be sure.

Before:

After:

 

Stock-ish (No RSS/LRTR):

 

I don't know how this rescaling works, but I'd guess that the TWR should be similar to stock, and the dV could be higher. If that's the case then it is all good now.

(Now I understand why I couldn't get into orbit )

Yeah, the 'After' numbers should have been the numbers all along.  I'm guessing something was busted in the RealFuels-Stock patches.  I never did proper testing.  At any given era you should be able to build a reasonable facsimile of a real rocket from that time frame.  If you can't it means my code is broken somewhere, typically from an untested (or poorly tested in this case) mod.

I never really talked about what the mod does when rescaling so this is as good an opportunity as any.  

At it's core it's pretty simple.  Kerbal scale parts are 5/8 the size of 'real' parts so the mod just increase the size to 1 by using 8/5 (i.e. 1.6)

All the 'magic' of the mod happens in the rescale.cfg file.  It's fairly complicated but it really only does four things:

1) It rescales parts in all three dimensions (i.e. length/width/height) by 1.6.  This doesn't change the mass or the volume, that would need to be done later.

2) It rescales thrust of engines by 2.56 (i.e. 1.6^2).  This is because thrust can be abstractly thought of as coming from the area of the bottom of the engine bell.   If you increase both the width and length of the bell by 1.6, that's 1.6*1.6, so the area is 2.56, and thus the thrust is increased by 2.56.  This mostly works but stock engines are a bit nerfed for game balance as they get bigger so I added in some code to make larger engines get a bigger than 2.56 increase.  Solids are even more nerfed so I double the thrust again.

3) It rescales the volume of fuel parts to 3.6.  In theory it should be a bit more than 4 (1.6^3 height*width*length) but 3.6 gives a more real world results.  Technically I don't do anything with volume for the stock game, I just increase the amount of fuel/oxy by 3.6.  It adds even more solid fuel, again to de-nerf them and bring them into line with real motors.

4) It rescales the drag cube (aerodynamic surfaces) for the increases size.  This part is black magic for me, so I don't actually know what it's doing other than 'it seems to work'.

Everything else is just cleaning stuff up, making attachment points work correctly etc.  In theory I should be adjusting the mass as well but it turns out KSP parts are pretty close to real world mass already so I don't do this for very many parts.

My goal was to avoid tweaking individual parts, since... well who has time for that.  Doing the above four things gives 'good enough' results.  There are a bunch of support files but they do very little fine tuning, it's mostly fixing glitches and making sure they work with some of the RP-1 features (contracts, science, crew training).

I'm guessing RealFuels still has some rough edges so keep the comments coming.

[boribori]

On 10/7/2020 at 12:29 AM, Pehvbot said:

I'm guessing RealFuels still has some rough edges so keep the comments coming.

Kerbals need EVA propellant, now they're configured for MonoPropellant, but the pods won't have that. This patch from ROKerbalism adds Hydrazine:
 

// use hydrazine as EVA propellant, instead of Monoprop
@PART[kerbalEVA*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleTripLogger]]:NEEDS[RealFuels]:AFTER[KerbalismDefault]
{
	@MODULE[KerbalEVA]
	{
		@propellantResourceName = Hydrazine
	}

	@RESOURCE[MonoPropellant]
	{
		@name = Hydrazine
	}
}

 

[Pehvbot]

On 10/10/2020 at 3:00 PM, boribori said:

Kerbals need EVA propellant, now they're configured for MonoPropellant, but the pods won't have that. This patch from ROKerbalism adds Hydrazine:
 

// use hydrazine as EVA propellant, instead of Monoprop
@PART[kerbalEVA*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleTripLogger]]:NEEDS[RealFuels]:AFTER[KerbalismDefault]
{
	@MODULE[KerbalEVA]
	{
		@propellantResourceName = Hydrazine
	}

	@RESOURCE[MonoPropellant]
	{
		@name = Hydrazine
	}
}

 

Yep, definitely still rough around the edges :-). I'll add the fix to the next update.  Thanks!

[Pehvbot]

Version 1.3 is available.  It's mostly small bug fixes.  It also adds ISRU support.

Version 0.7 of the KerbalismConfig is also out and has some major changes.  It has two profiles, LRTRSimple (the default) and LRTRStock.  LRTRSimple is a complete rebuild and may break existing games.  The new profile simplifies resources a bit, adds ISRU support, and makes the Greenhouse useful again.  The LRTRStock profile *should* fix Greenhouses but I haven't fully tested it yet.

[boribori]

15 hours ago, Pehvbot said:

Version 1.3 is available.  It's mostly small bug fixes.  It also adds ISRU support.

Version 0.7 of the KerbalismConfig is also out and has some major changes.  It has two profiles, LRTRSimple (the default) and LRTRStock.  LRTRSimple is a complete rebuild and may break existing games.  The new profile simplifies resources a bit, adds ISRU support, and makes the Greenhouse useful again.  The LRTRStock profile *should* fix Greenhouses but I haven't fully tested it yet.

- Quick questions about LRTRSimple: is that SimpleISRU in the config? I guess Realfuels users would want a more advanced ISRU and will want to keep the resources, so they should set this to false, right?  (I haven't looked at the code yet, because I spent too much time on the next issue.)

- And the Procedural Tanks issue still exists. I looked at your code and I thought it fixed my problem that I couldn't resize at all, so I removed my patches, but then the problem came back, including an issue I hadn't mentioned before: the nodes are off, so the parts procedural parts clip into other parts.
When I remove the upgrade limits with the following path everything is fine again

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ProceduralPart]]:AFTER[zLRTR] 
{
	@MODULE[ProceduralShape*],*
	{
		%techRequired = start
	}
	@TechRequired = start

	@MODULE[ProceduralPart]
    {
        %diameterMin = 0.01
        %diameterMax = Infinity
        %lengthMin = 0.01
        %lengthMax = Infinity
        %volumeMin = 0
        %volumeMax = Infinity
    }
}
@PART[proceduralTankRealFuels]:AFTER[zLRTR]
{
    @TechHidden = False
}
@PART:HAS[@MODULE[ProceduralPart]]:AFTER[zLRTR]
{
    @MODULE[ProceduralPart]
    {
        !TECHLIMIT,* {}
        !UPGRADES,* {}
    }
}

I would actually like to use the upgrade steps, but it's breaking my brain.

After I gave up troubleshooting and continued playing I noticed that when using Real Fuels parts are called [proceduralTankRealFuels]. So I guess the issue might have something to do with Real Fuels. Right now I don't feel like troubleshooting, I just want to play. I will dive in again later today or this weekend. But maybe you know already what's causing this.

 

EDIT: The nodes are still off. So I guess I will have to do some more troubleshooting before playing. I just really can't remember what fixed it before. It looks like it has something do do with rescaling.

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by boribori

[boribori]

I did some quick tests with the procedural tanks on clean installs (without my own patches):

• LRTR 1.2 + PP:
  • attachment nodes OK
  • limited resizing
• LRTR 1.2 + PP + RF:
  • attachment nodes OK
  • extremely limited resizing
• LRTR 1.3 + PP:
  • attachment nodes messed up
  • resizing OK
• LRTR 1.3 + PP + RF:
  • attachment nodes messed up
  • extremely limited resizing

 

I think the resizing problem in LRTR 1.3 is because the Real Fuels Procedural Tanks use different a different Tech Tree upgrade system so they are never being upgraded.

I have no clue about the attachment nodes, but it looks like a new problem introduced with LRTR 1.3 (although I am sure I had it for a bit with 1.2 as well).

[Pehvbot]

10 hours ago, boribori said:

- Quick questions about LRTRSimple: is that SimpleISRU in the config? I guess Realfuels users would want a more advanced ISRU and will want to keep the resources, so they should set this to false, right?  (I haven't looked at the code yet, because I spent too much time on the next issue.)

Nope, it's kind of its own thing.  It sits somewhere between stock and Simplex in terms of complexity.  My goal was to make ISRU useful in a minimal LRTR install.  It cuts down resources you can mine to Water and Ore.  With these you can produce any of the consumables (Oxygen, Hydrogen, LiquidFuel, Oxidizer, Monopropellant, Fertilizer).  

The LRTRStock profile does basically same things, but just does them with more steps and mined resources.  It would be trivially easy to mod it to produce HydroLox, MethaLox, or Hydrozine instead of LiquidFuel, Oxidizer, and Monopropellant and get something sort of close to real world results. 

10 hours ago, boribori said:

- And the Procedural Tanks issue still exists. I looked at your code and I thought it fixed my problem that I couldn't resize at all, so I removed my patches, but then the problem came back, including an issue I hadn't mentioned before: the nodes are off, so the parts procedural parts clip into other parts.
When I remove the upgrade limits with the following path everything is fine again

There are three separate problems, all fixable.

The first problem is that RealFuels removes the stock ProceduralParts fuel tank and inserts its own.  This means  none of the LRTR configuration files apply to them. 

The second problem is I made some changes to the configs without testing.  I mean they were just super simple changes to some of the tags used for UPGRADES.  How could I screw that up?  Well, I screwed it up by not testing of course :-)

Finally the RealFuels tank (first problem) wasn't properly excluded from rescaling.  The model was being rescaled but the nodes weren't. 

All of them are fixed in the GitHub and will be included in the next update.

[edit]

Yep, your diagnosis was spot on.  I broke the ProceduralParts upgrades in 1.3 which caused most of the weirdness.  Thanks!

Edited October 16, 2020 by Pehvbot

[boribori]

11 hours ago, Pehvbot said:

Nope, it's kind of its own thing.  It sits somewhere between stock and Simplex in terms of complexity.  My goal was to make ISRU useful in a minimal LRTR install.  It cuts down resources you can mine to Water and Ore.  With these you can produce any of the consumables (Oxygen, Hydrogen, LiquidFuel, Oxidizer, Monopropellant, Fertilizer).  

The LRTRStock profile does basically same things, but just does them with more steps and mined resources.  It would be trivially easy to mod it to produce HydroLox, MethaLox, or Hydrozine instead of LiquidFuel, Oxidizer, and Monopropellant and get something sort of close to real world results.

The fact that you can create all that from some inorganic moon rock really bugs me. I will need to look again what ISRU options are available. Magic stock ore is a no go for me, but KSPIE for example adds too much complexity. I'll also have a look at what the Kerbalism profiles can do. I already had a quick look at the RO config and that looks promising, else I might just revive my own ISRU "mod" when I get to it.

 

11 hours ago, Pehvbot said:

There are three separate problems, all fixable.

The first problem is that RealFuels removes the stock ProceduralParts fuel tank and inserts its own.  This means  none of the LRTR configuration files apply to them. 

The second problem is I made some changes to the configs without testing.  I mean they were just super simple changes to some of the tags used for UPGRADES.  How could I screw that up?  Well, I screwed it up by not testing of course :-)

Finally the RealFuels tank (first problem) wasn't properly excluded from rescaling.  The model was being rescaled but the nodes weren't. 

All of them are fixed in the GitHub and will be included in the next update.

[edit]

Yep, your diagnosis was spot on.  I broke the ProceduralParts upgrades in 1.3 which caused most of the weirdness.  Thanks!

Preliminary tests with the fixes from GitHub look good so far. (I only had to add a "cheat" patch for my existing craft with Fillet Cylinders.)

But the smallest size ever seems to be 800mm by 480mm, that can't be right.

And I don't really understand the logic behind the fact that Fillet Cylinders are so far ahead in the Tech Tree.

[boribori]

I am encountering two more issues with the tech tree (I think):

• I can't change the amount of nodes for Procedural Fairings and the procedural thrust plate adapter. I haven't looked at the code at all yet (I don't use those much, so it's not a priority for me), but I assume it is an upgrade issue.
• RealAntennas don't have an upgrade path. I quickly rewrote GameData/RealAntennas/TechTree.cfg in my install to fix it for myself. I will write a proper MM patch later (I guess I'll have to use the same method as LRTR did with Procedural Parts).

Would it technically be possible for Tech Tree nodes to have 2 names? Or another way to use the LRTR Tech Tree without removing the stock nodes? Something so unsupported mods that do upgrades or something else with the tech tree don't break. I think it's better if it is in an illogical position than not being there at all.

Edited October 18, 2020 by boribori

[Pehvbot]

On 10/17/2020 at 2:26 AM, boribori said:

The fact that you can create all that from some inorganic moon rock really bugs me. I will need to look again what ISRU options are available. Magic stock ore is a no go for me, but KSPIE for example adds too much complexity. I'll also have a look at what the Kerbalism profiles can do. I already had a quick look at the RO config and that looks promising, else I might just revive my own ISRU "mod" when I get to it.

The LRTRStock profile is actually cribbed from the  RO Kerbalism profile by Standecco (although it uses an earlier out of date version).  It's much closer to reality than the...er... less real LRTRSimple profile.  It already uses real world processes to create the stock resources.  For example, it uses the sabateir reaction (CO2+Water) to generate LiquidFuel.  It would be easy to add in some cfgs to check if RealFuels is installed and to update the production of the LRTRStock profile to create the real fuels.  Updating to the latest RO profile is on my list and should iron out some of the rough edges in the LRTRStock profile. 

In practical terms this means LRTRStock can't produce LiquidFuel/Methane on the Moon since there's no carbon/carbondioxide to speak of.  You can of course make HydroLox from the water.  This is one reason why Blue Origin (who favors the Moon) use a HydroLox landing engine and SpaceX (who favors Mars) use MethaLox landing engines.  

On 10/17/2020 at 2:26 AM, boribori said:

Preliminary tests with the fixes from GitHub look good so far. (I only had to add a "cheat" patch for my existing craft with Fillet Cylinders.)

But the smallest size ever seems to be 800mm by 480mm, that can't be right.

And I don't really understand the logic behind the fact that Fillet Cylinders are so far ahead in the Tech Tree.

Good do know it's not hopelessly broken any more :-) 

There really wasn't any logic to the Fillet configs, or the shaped configs in general.  I went with the stock settings and adjusted to the RP-1 tech tree just to have something that worked.  Allowing any shape early makes sense.  Adjusting the minimum size down also makes sense.

I was planning to add procedural tanks to the start menu, but make them just cylinders with restricted size.  The postWarMaterialsScience upgrade could then add all the shapes (no real reason not to, as you say) as well as unrestricted length.  The next tier can be add unrestricted minimum size.  I'll go ahead and roll it into the next update.

2 hours ago, boribori said:

I am encountering two more issues with the tech tree (I think):

• I can't change the amount of nodes for Procedural Fairings and the procedural thrust plate adapter. I haven't looked at the code at all yet (I don't use those much, so it's not a priority for me), but I assume it is an upgrade issue.
• RealAntennas don't have an upgrade path. I quickly rewrote GameData/RealAntennas/TechTree.cfg in my install to fix it for myself. I will write a proper MM patch later (I guess I'll have to use the same method as LRTR did with Procedural Parts).

Would it technically be possible for Tech Tree nodes to have 2 names? Or another way to use the LRTR Tech Tree without removing the stock nodes? Something so unsupported mods that do upgrades or something else with the tech tree don't break. I think it's better if it is in an illogical position than not being there at all.

It would be pretty easy to change the tech tree node name (i.e. name = ...) but keep the RP-1 display name to embed the stock tree into the new tech tree.  It's just a matter of picking nodes that are 'close enough' and then updating references to the node name.  It won't be a perfect match and mods should still be customized when possible, but that should fix this problem for any random mods used.  I'll test it out and see.  Again, thanks for the suggestions and bug tracking.  I'll take a look at the procedural fairings and thrust plates.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Pehvbot

[boribori]

The issue with procedural fairings disappeared by itself (I probably changed something I don't remember I did ).

I created a patch for RealAntennas upgrades: https://github.com/codebori/RealSolarFiction/blob/master/GameData/RSF/RSF_Tree/RSF_TT_Realantenna.cfg

While I was doing it I realised that RealAntennas has a config for RP-0, so there's probably an easier way to do it than how I did it.

[Pehvbot]

12 hours ago, boribori said:

The issue with procedural fairings disappeared by itself (I probably changed something I don't remember I did ).

I created a patch for RealAntennas upgrades: https://github.com/codebori/RealSolarFiction/blob/master/GameData/RSF/RSF_Tree/RSF_TT_Realantenna.cfg

While I was doing it I realised that RealAntennas has a config for RP-0, so there's probably an easier way to do it than how I did it.

Yeah, once you have 3 or more mods all with their own changes, things get a little crazy.  Throw your own changes into the mix and you can get an almost random set of results.  I feel like sometimes I install the exact same mods with the same versions in the same order, and get different results.

For RealAntennas I think it's slightly easier to patch the existing PARTUPGRADE nodes directly since it means you don't need to re-insert the upgrades, but honestly it's nearly functionally identical.  I'm testing something like this:

@PARTUPGRADE[commsTL1]
{
	@techRequired = lunarRangeComms
	%entryCost = 1
}

And speaking of crazy, the 'fun' discovery was that RealAntennas also tries to patch the KerbalConstructionTime tech requirements for the Tracking Station, overwriting the LRTR settings.  I think the only elegant solution is to have RealAntennas patch TrackingStation.cfg to add !LRTR to NEEDS.  It already does this for RP-0.  I'm testing a patch to reinsert the correct settings, but it ain't pretty.

[Sirata]

Hey Pehvbot, 

This is awesome! I was trying to build something similar myself, but with no near the level you've achieved so far. I'd love to offer some feedback/testing if you need it, or help with configs. I'm going to pull the current master branch on 1.10 and see how it goes. Any specific configs you're working, or mods you'd like to integrate/support?

Thanks!

[Pehvbot]

8 hours ago, Sirata said:

Hey Pehvbot, 

This is awesome! I was trying to build something similar myself, but with no near the level you've achieved so far. I'd love to offer some feedback/testing if you need it, or help with configs. I'm going to pull the current master branch on 1.10 and see how it goes. Any specific configs you're working, or mods you'd like to integrate/support?

Thanks!

Thanks for the feedback!  I don't really have much of a plan for adding support other than specific requests or finding a mod and going 'hey, this looks interesting...'

Any/all feedback is welcome.  In general adding a parts oriented mod goes something like this:

• Load it 'as is' and see if the parts are being properly rescaled (some parts just don't rescale, especially if they use custom mods internally)
• Do a sanity check on engines and tanks to make sure they are getting the correct volume and thrust adjustments
• Looping through these steps to get things 'right'
  • Check tech tree positions.  The RP-1 tech tree is completely custom, so normal tech tree positions don't work.  I have a rough and ready script to put them somewhere in the RP-1 tree but it doesn't do a great job.  I don't have much of a method to do this, it's mostly guess work and grouping 'like' things together.   I have some php scripts to help but those are not good for public use.
  • Exclude science only parts.  The science stuff is also the custom RP-1 stuff and doesn't play well with normal parts.
  • Fine tune engines a bit.  In theory thrust should be 2.56 times the 'Kerbal' scale but in practice larger engines need more of a boost than that.  The mod has a thrust adjuster (lrtr_thrustCurve) to do this. I've tried to avoid hand tuning each part so this number is normally done across all engines in that mod.  LRTR definitely takes a 'good enough' approach (Less Real after all!).
  • Look for weird bugs.  Parts can use custom modules that can do strange things
  • Look for UPGRADES that require specific tech (Again because of the RP-1 custom tech tree).  I kind of slack on this one.  Some mods like Bluedog have hundreds of parts and I'm kind of lazy.
  • Add training times to Pods so the RP-1 training stuff works.
  • Add in specific KerbalismConfig info.  

I normally don't play with any parts mods at all except ReStock/Plus so many of the 'supported' mods don't get completely tested.  If you see problems please let me know.  If there are unsupported mods you want to use, load them up and see what happens!

I do have a short list of things I want to do, but no real timeline

• Run Restock/Plus without Making History installed.  In theory it adds a version of the  Making History parts.  I think I have them correctly configured, but I'm not actually sure.
• Run the game with Breaking Ground ground features.  The latest Kopernicus supports these now and the LRTR/config.cfg has a switch to enable them in RSS.  I haven't tested them much.
• Play with Breaking Ground robotic parts and propellers.  1.10 fixes the rescale bug  so use the LRTR/config.cfg to enable rescaling.
• Add some sort of science back into the manned Science Lab parts.  My hope is to do this without adding any additional mods.

If there are any mods you want included let me know.