How to pass the lounge bridge of KSC?

[Scrooge]

BTW, how to make an aircraft stable at very low speed? (30-20m/s)

I see some people managed to do a taxing landing on the roof tarmac with their aircrafts...

Edited December 11, 2019 by Scrooge

[Fierce Wolf]

Vertical takeoff!

A lot of control wheels to steer the vertical engines in the right direction. You can even add either an engine pointing backwards for a quick midair full stop, or a rotating engine that can point forward, backwards and downwards.

[Scrooge]

1 hour ago, Fierce Wolf said:

Vertical takeoff!

A lot of control wheels to steer the vertical engines in the right direction. You can even add either an engine pointing backwards for a quick midair full stop, or a rotating engine that can point forward, backwards and downwards.

VTOL or Rovers are good but... sorry for my mis-expression...I am thinking about some kind of gliders without using reaction wheels, flying at an extremely low speed about 20-30m/s...

[Fierce Wolf]

There is a video in the Scott Manley youtube channel where he straps a drone core to a pair of wings with elevons, puts it 50 meters up by attaching a Stability Enhancer. On the launch pad he releases it and voila! it glides for several minutes at low speeds.

[bewing]

The slower you want to fly, the more wing you need to have. Especially as a ratio to weight.

However, please note that flying with large wings at low speed is very efficient. So you can't just wait for the speed to bleed off before you land. You have to force the craft onto the ground.

[Scrooge]

29 minutes ago, bewing said:

The slower you want to fly, the more wing you need to have. Especially as a ratio to weight.

However, please note that flying with large wings at low speed is very efficient. So you can't just wait for the speed to bleed off before you land. You have to force the craft onto the ground.

After trying several times and fail again, I'am quite agree with you.

And I am thinking about making parts of the wing to be spoilers...

37 minutes ago, Fierce Wolf said:

There is a video in the Scott Manley youtube channel where he straps a drone core to a pair of wings with elevons, puts it 50 meters up by attaching a Stability Enhancer. On the launch pad he releases it and voila! it glides for several minutes at low speeds.

Thank you! I will watch that!

Edited December 11, 2019 by Scrooge

[XLjedi]

Do you have the breaking ground DLC?

[Scrooge]

41 minutes ago, XLjedi said:

Do you have the breaking ground DLC?

Yes, do you mean the rotor or helicopters?

[HvP]

Consider adding a few degrees of positive incidence to the wings. This means that the leading edge of your wings are rotated up slightly.

It increases your lift while still allowing you level flight, giving you better control than if you were constantly trying to pitch up to maintain lift. It also allows for better visibility from the cockpit view during maneuvering, especially during landing.

Depending on the design it can cause more drag because the main wings present a larger area to the air - or it could actually reduce drag, because the fuselage and tail plane no longer have to add as much drag as they would when you constantly pitch up for lift in a zero-incidence design. Either way, you produce more lift at slower speeds by adding a slight upwards angle of incidence to your wings.

Edited December 11, 2019 by HvP

[IkranMakto]

12 hours ago, Scrooge said:

Yes, do you mean the rotor or helicopters?

Tilting jets, KAL-1000 for group control of thrust. Really useful and interesting DLC. And... for helicopters of course! 

 

[Klapaucius]

Go small. All things being equal, the lighter it is, the less speed it needs to get airborne.  Additional wing area helps as well.  Check out some of the biplanes on KerbalX.  A lot of these will fly quite slowly. I was able to cruise at around 30 m/s in this one:

https://kerbalx.com/KerbalAstronautics/Sparrow-B

 

[Scrooge]

13 hours ago, HvP said:

Consider adding a few degrees of positive incidence to the wings. This means that the leading edge of your wings are rotated up slightly.

It increases your lift while still allowing you level flight, giving you better control than if you were constantly trying to pitch up to maintain lift. It also allows for better visibility from the cockpit view during maneuvering, especially during landing.

Depending on the design it can cause more drag because the main wings present a larger area to the air - or it could actually reduce drag, because the fuselage and tail plane no longer have to add as much drag as they would when you constantly pitch up for lift in a zero-incidence design. Either way, you produce more lift at slower speeds by adding a slight upwards angle of incidence to your wings.

Did you mean something like flaps of FAR? I think it's a good idea!

47 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

Go small. All things being equal, the lighter it is, the less speed it needs to get airborne.  Additional wing area helps as well.  Check out some of the biplanes on KerbalX.  A lot of these will fly quite slowly. I was able to cruise at around 30 m/s in this one:

https://kerbalx.com/KerbalAstronautics/Sparrow-B

 

Thanks for your example!

Wow, that retro style is quite a master-piece...

Edited December 12, 2019 by Scrooge

[HvP]

10 hours ago, Scrooge said:

Did you mean something like flaps of FAR? I think it's a good idea!

Flaps would produce the same result, just with less wing area and usually less total lift as a result. Flaps do have the benefit of being able to control when and how aggressively they are used, whereas the wing incidence is a permanent property of the plane's design.

If you want to add incidence to the wings: when viewing the plane from the side use the rotate tool so that the forward-leading edge of the wing is raised slightly.

If you want to add flaps, put them close to the center of mass of the plane relative to the front/back of the craft. That way the will add lift without causing a torque that would pitch the plane up or down. Then assign them to an action group toggle.

Edited December 12, 2019 by HvP

[swjr-swis]

On 12/11/2019 at 10:56 AM, Scrooge said:

How to pass the lounge bridge of KSC?

BTW, how to make an aircraft stable at very low speed? (30-20m/s)

To answer both questions, this is how I would do it:

 

TL;DW: 1) go slow, align from far. 2) lots and lots of wing area. and 3) make it a wacky design and record it, we wanna see!

Edited December 12, 2019 by swjr-swis
forgot rule #3. why do I always forget #3?

[Scrooge]

9 hours ago, HvP said:

Flaps would produce the same result, just with less wing area and usually less total lift as a result. Flaps do have the benefit of being able to control when and how aggressively they are used, whereas the wing incidence is a permanent property of the plane's design.

If you want to add incidence to the wings: when viewing the plane from the side use the rotate tool so that the forward-leading edge of the wing is raised slightly.

If you want to add flaps, put them close to the center of mass of the plane relative to the front/back of the craft. That way the will add lift without causing a torque that would pitch the plane up or down. Then assign them to an action group toggle.

I try my first plane with flaps, but encountered a weird situation...

When my plane is head-down with 0 AoA (140m/s), the flaps are slightly ahead of CoM which caused more downward torque to the head after they are activated...

Why is that...?

PS. the flaps are flipped upward and face forward, I am not sure whether they can be implemented like this...

9 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

To answer both questions, this is how I would do it:

 

TL;DW: 1) go slow, align from far. 2) lots and lots of wing area. and 3) make it a wacky design and record it, we wanna see!

that's right, someone told me that large wingspan is also helpful, I am not sure and will try this tonight...

Edited December 13, 2019 by Scrooge

[HvP]

11 hours ago, Scrooge said:

I try my first plane with flaps, but encountered a weird situation...

When my plane is head-down with 0 AoA (140m/s), the flaps are slightly ahead of CoM which caused more downward torque to the head after they are activated...

Why is that...?

PS. the flaps are flipped upward and face forward, I am not sure whether they can be implemented like this...

The game automatically determines the direction that control surfaces will deploy based on where they are relative to the center-of-mass. If they are in front of the center of mass they will go in the opposite direction than if they are behind it. For flaps this shouldn't matter as much because you should have auto pitch, yaw, and roll disabled from their right-click menu in the space plane hangar, and only deploy them from an action group toggle. For clarity, I'm talking about flaps which add drag and lift without otherwise changing the direction of the plane. Ailerons, rudders and elevators control roll, yaw, and pitch respectively and do need to have those specific inputs enabled (and only those for which they are meant to control.)

There is an option to reverse the deploy direction of the flaps in the right-click menu (this might need "advanced tweakables" to be enabled in the settings menu.) As I understand it, this only works to reverse the direction they move when using the "Deploy" command assigned to an action group. It won't change the direction they move when under pitch, yaw or roll input - that's based on their position relative to the center of mass.

I would suggest either reversing the deploy direction of the flaps if you want them on the leading edge of the wing or moving them slightly behind the center of mass marker. It's important to make sure that you check the position of the CoM marker with the tanks both full and empty, because the balance of the plane will move as you consume fuel.

Edited December 13, 2019 by HvP

[Scrooge]

On 12/14/2019 at 1:42 AM, HvP said:

The game automatically determines the direction that control surfaces will deploy based on where they are relative to the center-of-mass. If they are in front of the center of mass they will go in the opposite direction than if they are behind it. For flaps this shouldn't matter as much because you should have auto pitch, yaw, and roll disabled from their right-click menu in the space plane hangar, and only deploy them from an action group toggle. For clarity, I'm talking about flaps which add drag and lift without otherwise changing the direction of the plane. Ailerons, rudders and elevators control roll, yaw, and pitch respectively and do need to have those specific inputs enabled (and only those for which they are meant to control.)

There is an option to reverse the deploy direction of the flaps in the right-click menu (this might need "advanced tweakables" to be enabled in the settings menu.) As I understand it, this only works to reverse the direction they move when using the "Deploy" command assigned to an action group. It won't change the direction they move when under pitch, yaw or roll input - that's based on their position relative to the center of mass.

I would suggest either reversing the deploy direction of the flaps if you want them on the leading edge of the wing or moving them slightly behind the center of mass marker. It's important to make sure that you check the position of the CoM marker with the tanks both full and empty, because the balance of the plane will move as you consume fuel.

Your suggestion is informative, I will try putting my flaps behind my wings, thank you very much!

[HvP]

13 minutes ago, Scrooge said:

I will try putting my flaps behind my wings,

Just be aware that if the flaps are too far back then they will cause your plane to pitch nose downwards. Ideally, they should be exactly in line with the CoM. But because in KSP it's usually not possible to control the weight precisely enough to position the edge of the wing right on the CoM, I usually have to surface attach my flaps somewhere on the underside surface of the wing, deploying downwards when needed.

Experiment and adjust as needed, and happy flying.

[Scrooge]

...and finally made it via flaps and large area of wings, it weights 7.3t, which cause the small load of wings and high TWR to make it stable and controllable at a speed about 80-90m/s

I used PilotAssistant to help controlling the speed so I can focus on steering.

I only add 1 pair of small flaps, maybe I can replace some more fixed wings with flaps...?

Edited December 16, 2019 by Scrooge

[HvP]

On 12/16/2019 at 7:05 AM, Scrooge said:

..and finally made it via flaps and large area of wings, it weights 7.3t, which cause the small load of wings and high TWR to make it stable and controllable at a speed about 80-90m/s

I used PilotAssistant to help controlling the speed so I can focus on steering.

I only add 1 pair of small flaps, maybe I can replace some more fixed wings with flaps...?

Good work!

There's no harm in experimenting with different designs. Just save it as a different plane so you don't lose the working version.

Its a game. Try all sorts of ideas, play around with it, see what works and what doesn't. And of course have fun!

[Scrooge]

On 12/15/2019 at 6:19 AM, HvP said:

Just be aware that if the flaps are too far back then they will cause your plane to pitch nose downwards. Ideally, they should be exactly in line with the CoM. But because in KSP it's usually not possible to control the weight precisely enough to position the edge of the wing right on the CoM, I usually have to surface attach my flaps somewhere on the underside surface of the wing, deploying downwards when needed.

Experiment and adjust as needed, and happy flying.

Sure! and now I fully experience what you've told me, besides, it does have something in common with reality, the theory behind designs makes me more content than any other sandbox game!

and recently I found a new (Yeah, it's just new for me) design that might help the task mentioned in this thread, the basic idea is using wings as structural parts to make aircraft lighter and generate more lift, the detail can be seen in this thread: