Problem with space shuttle

[Pawelk198604]

Can someone tell me what is wrong with my space shuttle.

I built quite a few rockets sometimes worked sometimes not, I managed to land on the Mun and orbit around Minimus , however, most of my projects are classic rockets, now I decided to build something else, namely the space shuttle.

I won a lot of experience in the construction of aircraft (in KSP of course:) )

My space plane reached altitude 130 km, which make my pride

I decided to built space shuttle not because it was easy but because it was hard , unfortunately to hard for my

My space shuttle after clearing launch tower make flip backward hinting ground and killing all kerbounaurts inside, which are in fact they probably used to this, but I'm not, I'm sure this can be a remedy for that.

I attached my project i will by grateful for all constructive advice, this is my first serious space shuttle design

[Richy teh space man]

Too much weight in the shuttle..

More control fins on the large booster may improve that

[vexx32]

I'm assuming you're using the shuttle-mounted-on-the-side-of-a-massive-rocket method, yes? Well, the primary problem with these is that both your thrust and weight will cause massive imbalances in the vehicle. You need to try to use your engines to counteract the weight imbalance, or directly counteract the weight imbalance by adding weights of some sort to the other side of the rocket, and try to position your engines so that they act through the centre of mass, to avoid them applying torque.

[Pawelk198604]

Fixed a little project, but now I have a problem with the SRB

maybe i should these triangular decoupler?

[G Addict]

Your centre of mass will be way off your centre of thrust. Unfortunately, short of ugly counterweights on the other side of your shuttle, there's not really a solution. You could try adding more control surfaces, which may fix it while you're in the atmosphere, but once you're in the upper atmosphere it'll just happen there instead. EDIT: Ah, it knocks off your other engine. Yeah using the decouplers which put the solids further from the tank should fix that. Use the hardpoint ones - they're lighter and about as strong as the old style decouplers.

Edited September 11, 2012 by G Addict

[Pawelk198604]

Thanks for you advises SRB still doesen't survive separation but rest space shuttle flying good until roll maneuver, aprox 20 km

Any advise?

Edited September 12, 2012 by Pawelk198604
attaching project

[Grand Lander]

Oh man i had a design that worked perectly but i lost when update came along i dont know why i didnt uses boosters

[Pawelk198604]

Why my Space Shuttle titling to backside.

I decided to control launch phase semi-automatic, but that doesn't help shuttle tilting to backside, i tried to reduce throttle to compensate but that doesn't help

[Richy teh space man]

Its getting higher up before its death spin now though..

You tried using RCS thrusters attached to the booster stage?

[Brad]

This concept simply will not work. Due to the unrealistic rate at which the solid rocket boosters lose fuel in KSP, you will likely be unable to make a craft in this design. If you would like to make a reusable craft, may I suggest making a mock Crewed Atlas V rocket? I have one, and it performs flawlessly from launch to full stop on the runway after many orbits.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Dream_Chaser_Atlas_V_Integrated_Launch_Configuration.jpg

[AlexL]

Are you using an ASAS on the tank and avionics package on the shuttle? I've found problems when using both, I recommend you ditch the ASAS and take a bit of manual control on the ascent to compensate any floating.

[Pawelk198604]

But I still do not understand why my space shuttle tilts to back, no matter how much I make fixes the project, the space shuttle still turns on the back, and go to spin.

I did not have so many problems, even with my Munar rocket.

[Tiberion]

Okay, I know a little bit about building shuttles in KSP, if you pardon my saying so.

The issue you are having is thus:

The engine on your external tank is draining fuel faster than the shuttle engine is, and the tank itself it getting lighter and lighter as you go. With less mass to push, the tank engine applies more power and causes the rotation. Basically the ship goes from having the tank be the dead weight to the shuttle.

You will not likely be able to fix this with stock parts. The best solution is to make the shuttle's main engine have a HIGH gimbal range, like 25 or 30, and then use an ASAS or mechjeb will use the engine to offset the weight imbalance and keep your flying up. You can even use a single lifting engine, either on the tank or shuttle, and cut out a little of the extra weight.

When I finally get it updated and re-released, you can check out my Tiberdyne pack for a working example.

[Kosmo-not]

But I still do not understand why my space shuttle tilts to back, no matter how much I make fixes the project, the space shuttle still turns on the back, and go to spin.

I did not have so many problems, even with my Munar rocket.

This has to do with the center of mass being shifted towards the shuttle as fuel gets consumed in the external tank. The engine on the external tank end up producing more torque than the shuttle's engines. After the engines have reached their gimbal limit trying to compensate, the craft will tumble out of control.

[The Destroyer]

Why my Space Shuttle titling to backside.

I decided to control launch phase semi-automatic, but that doesn't help shuttle tilting to backside, i tried to reduce throttle to compensate but that doesn't help

Notice how mechjeb says: gravity turn? its trying its best to do the gravity turn. u said 0 inclination, therefor 90 degrees.

try using rcs to help it too.

[SaSquatch]

First off... this is my first post, proper introductions I'll save until I figure out how to post some pictures and share some of my own builds.... Getting your shuttle into orbit is possible. These were the two main issues

1. More thrust in lower Atmosphere. The rocket is just generally under powered for the weight of the orbiter... in my opinion.

A. I added 5 pod engines (same as on your orbiter) around your big main Engine (avoid putting them right under the SRBs). I also added a second pair of SRBs above the first stack. Fire up the second stack after you jettison the first set of SRBs. This will give you about 60seconds of SRB thrust and additional thrust in general.

2. thrust profile change in upper atmosphere.

A. I removed the large primary engine for the small 2m engine. Added large coupler, Single 2m fuel tank (set fuel flow to false) and then the same Large primary engine on the bottom of that. Add fuel lines to complete the connection. When the pitch maxes out and you begin the death tumble, stage the large primary engine and start up the smaller 2m engine above it. The rocket will correct itself and thrust will balance again. I added the additional fuel tank only because the couplers don't allow fuel crossfeed so I needed something. The fuel tank is the best stock part there is for the job at 2m. Just be sure to set fuel flow to false or that engine will just barrel right into the smaller engine above it when you stage.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/66830730@N07/7983794683/" title="screenshot227 by Talskar, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8307/7983794683_f40b228866_c.jpg" width="800" height="450" alt="screenshot227"></a>

Also of note:

1. The engine pods on the orbiter aren't actually being used at launch. This is good since you balanced the stack without their thrust and turning them on at launch just tumbles the rocket. Remove them and save their weight. Also, with mechjeb, you can ditch any other SAS or ASAS units.

2. I could see your orbiter lacking lift on reentry so I added some additional "wings" as well.

3. You're going to need to clean up how the orbiter is attached to the external fuel tank since right now staging will tear the craft apart. I would suggest only using 1 coupler and keep the struts on the same stage so they'll break when you need them to. Also, you really only need 1 fuel line to do the job. Just make sure it's pointed in the right direction.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/66830730@N07/7983811862/" title="screenshot224 by Talskar, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8319/7983811862_064ffaa2ed_c.jpg" width="800" height="450" alt="screenshot224"></a>

Edited September 13, 2012 by SaSquatch
added screenshots

[Pawelk198604]

First off... this is my first post, proper introductions I'll save until I figure out how to post some pictures and share some of my own builds.... Getting your shuttle into orbit is possible. These were the two main issues

1. More thrust in lower Atmosphere. The rocket is just generally under powered for the weight of the orbiter... in my opinion.

A. I added 5 pod engines (same as on your orbiter) around your big main Engine (avoid putting them right under the SRBs). I also added a second pair of SRBs above the first stack. Fire up the second stack after you jettison the first set of SRBs. This will give you about 60seconds of SRB thrust and additional thrust in general.

2. thrust profile change in upper atmosphere.

A. I removed the large primary engine for the small 2m engine. Added large coupler, Single 2m fuel tank (set fuel flow to false) and then the same Large primary engine on the bottom of that. Add fuel lines to complete the connection. When the pitch maxes out and you begin the death tumble, stage the large primary engine and start up the smaller 2m engine above it. The rocket will correct itself and thrust will balance again. I added the additional fuel tank only because the couplers don't allow fuel crossfeed so I needed something. The fuel tank is the best stock part there is for the job at 2m. Just be sure to set fuel flow to false or that engine will just barrel right into the smaller engine above it when you stage.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/66830730@N07/7983794683/" title="screenshot227 by Talskar, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8307/7983794683_f40b228866_c.jpg" width="800" height="450" alt="screenshot227"></a>

Also of note:

1. The engine pods on the orbiter aren't actually being used at launch. This is good since you balanced the stack without their thrust and turning them on at launch just tumbles the rocket. Remove them and save their weight. Also, with mechjeb, you can ditch any other SAS or ASAS units.

2. I could see your orbiter lacking lift on reentry so I added some additional "wings" as well.

3. You're going to need to clean up how the orbiter is attached to the external fuel tank since right now staging will tear the craft apart. I would suggest only using 1 coupler and keep the struts on the same stage so they'll break when you need them to. Also, you really only need 1 fuel line to do the job. Just make sure it's pointed in the right direction.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/66830730@N07/7983811862/" title="screenshot224 by Talskar, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8319/7983811862_064ffaa2ed_c.jpg" width="800" height="450" alt="screenshot224"></a>

Thank you very much, I decided to include your patch to my project, but I have a question how to connect fuel lines to engine, i can do it upward, but i cannot do it downward????

is anny mod helping with crating fuel lines????

[SaSquatch]

I didn't do anything weird with the fuel line... started the line at the base of the main tank (where you did in the picture) and then clicked the small tank at the bottom of the stack. KSP made it look like it was connected to the decoupler but I clicked the tank. (I also had the quad thing clicked but that shouldn't have any effect. I was just worried a line would break during testing)

[Pawelk198604]

I didn't do anything weird with the fuel line... started the line at the base of the main tank (where you did in the picture) and then clicked the small tank at the bottom of the stack. KSP made it look like it was connected to the decoupler but I clicked the tank. (I also had the quad thing clicked but that shouldn't have any effect. I was just worried a line would break during testing)

I guess for now I'll give it a rest with the design space shuttles and wait for the next update, maybe will add some tools to help you design the space shuttle, for now I go back to normal rockets, thanks for help. I tried to copy your solution but it I did not work out. I tried another project

I attached my new project together with my Mun rocket, The mun rocket working perfectly fine i'm not so bad designer as can look , but i use MechJeb on launch phase

[SaSquatch]

You're a pretty good designer I'd say. I haven't even attempted a stock part shuttle yet, AND you got the thrust to balance. It would of been just fine if we could adjust thrust on a per engine basis or turn off that big main engine all together.

here she is

http://youtu.be/oA4elUwAjP8

[Pawelk198604]

Let's be honest my Space Shuttle isn't the best i hope that in update 0.17 will be easier to design space shuttle, speaking about shuttle can you recommend my good mod for space shuttle, parts, etc?

What do you think about me mun rocket, I put a lot of work into it, perhaps a month, when i finally landed i singed in my mind that song

[SaSquatch]

Edit* - Your moon rocket is huge, very kerbal, and it's rock solid during lift off. I liked the flower it makes when you decouple the 8 outer stacks from the main center stack. It should have enough fuel to do just about whatever you want with it.

I used a mix of KW parts and Nova... some Down under may of got mixed in there too

KW

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/showthread.php/2448-0-16-KW-Rocketry-v0-5

Nova Punch

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/showthread.php/3870-0-16-NovaPunch-Remix-Pack-1-3-Beta-%28Sept-7th%29-Requires-0-16

Down Under

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/showthread.php/3097-Down-Under-Aerospace-Party-Supplies-v0-4-AUSPLANE%21

There's a bunch of others too, these have just been my goto mods since I started playing.

Below is my current Shuttle. Much smaller then yours (single crewmember). Dryweight is 7.7tons while loaded its 10tons. Stallspeed is about 35m/s. The SRBs are the longest burning rockets I could find at 70seconds. The orbiter has about 800 thrust while the main stack is about 2000, I think. Surprisingly, I don't get the tumble with this rocket until the main tank is almost empty (altitudes at about 310km and above. Under 300km it doesn't tumble). I launch at such a shallow angle so that I can burn the main tank to Ap 320 P-250 in a single burn so that I can separate the orbiter and circularize without the external tank staying in orbit.

<a href=" " title="screenshot68 by Talskar, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8038/7983794231_6fe2aa03f4_z.jpg" width="640" height="360" alt="screenshot68"></a>

<a href=" " title="screenshot153 by Talskar, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8462/7983794133_c090b829f2_z.jpg" width="640" height="360" alt="screenshot153"></a>

Edited September 14, 2012 by SaSquatch
mention the mun rocket

[Zephram Kerman]

I think our problem is that we are lacking a special part that would make shuttles work properly.

Take a close look at the launching shuttle in profile.

Notice how the orbiter main engines are tilted so that the thrust axis goes right through the center of the external tank. This means the balance does not change as the tank empties out. So what we need is a way to put three gimballed engines on the back of a fuselage, and have them tilted upwards.

[SaSquatch]

You speak the truth... fellow Montana guy.

Eh... if I can find some time I might mess around with a adapted engine mount for the larger fuselage.

I think our problem is that we are lacking a special part that would make shuttles work properly.

Take a close look at the launching shuttle in profile.

Notice how the orbiter main engines are tilted so that the thrust axis goes right through the center of the external tank. This means the balance does not change as the tank empties out. So what we need is a way to put three gimballed engines on the back of a fuselage, and have them tilted upwards.

[Pawelk198604]

Edit* - Your moon rocket is huge, very kerbal, and it's rock solid during lift off. I liked the flower it makes when you decouple the 8 outer stacks from the main center stack. It should have enough fuel to do just about whatever you want with it.

I used a mix of KW parts and Nova... some Down under may of got mixed in there too

KW

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/showthread.php/2448-0-16-KW-Rocketry-v0-5

Nova Punch

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/showthread.php/3870-0-16-NovaPunch-Remix-Pack-1-3-Beta-%28Sept-7th%29-Requires-0-16

Down Under

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/showthread.php/3097-Down-Under-Aerospace-Party-Supplies-v0-4-AUSPLANE%21

There's a bunch of others too, these have just been my goto mods since I started playing.

Below is my current Shuttle. Much smaller then yours (single crewmember). Dryweight is 7.7tons while loaded its 10tons. Stallspeed is about 35m/s. The SRBs are the longest burning rockets I could find at 70seconds. The orbiter has about 800 thrust while the main stack is about 2000, I think. Surprisingly, I don't get the tumble with this rocket until the main tank is almost empty (altitudes at about 310km and above. Under 300km it doesn't tumble). I launch at such a shallow angle so that I can burn the main tank to Ap 320 P-250 in a single burn so that I can separate the orbiter and circularize without the external tank staying in orbit.

<a href=" " title="screenshot68 by Talskar, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8038/7983794231_6fe2aa03f4_z.jpg" width="640" height="360" alt="screenshot68"></a>

<a href=" " title="screenshot153 by Talskar, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8462/7983794133_c090b829f2_z.jpg" width="640" height="360" alt="screenshot153"></a>

I think about record launch of my "Mun Express" in fraps and play in background "Where My Heart Will Take Me" my favorite song, which lyrics are my personal moto, but i think i'll wait until release 0.17 to record some scenes during IVAs , if of course my rocket will fly in 0.17 i i heard that some user have problems with rockets created in previous version of KSP

Edit: where i can download these Nova Pack?

Edited September 14, 2012 by Pawelk198604