How do I fly with far?

[Vortexian2]

I am new to far and I have seen many tutorials and explanations for far but none seem to answer the questions I need answers to. So now I am here.

Also these problems don't occur with just one craft, they occur with all crafts I make.

1. How do I make a craft that can land at low speed (80m/s and under) but also not get its wings torn off when maneuvering at high speeds?

When landing at low speeds I can't pitch up enough to lower my vertical speed (I use the vertical speed indicator in kerbal engineer to help with landings, very useful). What ends up happening is that either I bounce off the runway then crash or the runway explodes. So I figured that this was a lift or/and not enough flaps. So on may of my crafts I tried to increase the size of the wings and/or increase the number of flaps or the size of them. Which worked but now all of my crafts explode or/and get their wings torn off at high speeds. So how do I balance them out?

2. How can you figure out if and at what speeds your craft will have its wings torn off and how to prevent it besides making the wings small (if that is a solution, I am not sure)?

I am asking this because it is really hard to make a high speed craft if you have to launch your craft, get up to a high speed, turn, and then get your wings torn off everytime you make a change. Is there something in the far info screen, if there is I haven't seen it.

3. How do I make my crafts stop oscillating or "wiggling" when cruising at high speeds?

Do I need more reaction wheels or is there something I can do design wise to make it stop.

 

Thank you to all that help.

[steve_v]

6 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

1. How do I make a craft that can land at low speed (80m/s and under) but also not get its wings torn off when maneuvering at high speeds?

Use the strength/mass sliders to make the wings stronger. Fly more carefully. Use DPCR. Install KJR if you haven't already.
Beyond that, it's a tradeoff just like IRL - things that fly well at low speed don't fly so well at supersonic speeds and vice-versa. Flaps, slats, and variable wing geometry can help with this to a point.
I've made many an aircraft that can land at <80m/s and still do mach 4+ at altitude, but you do need to watch how you handle the controls if you want the wings to stay attached. Real-life aircraft can't pull 15G in a turn without coming apart, and the same is true in FAR.

 

11 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

2. How can you figure out if and at what speeds your craft will have its wings torn off

Good question, I've always just relied on common-sense, test-flights, and experience. For the rest, see 1.

 

13 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

3. How do I make my crafts stop oscillating or "wiggling" when cruising at high speeds?

Stop using SAS. Trim for level flight with trim. Reduce control authority at high velocity.
Mechjeb can be used at a pinch, but you will have to muck with the attitude control window and even then it's usually far too aggressive for anything but attitude hold.
Kramax Autopilot is considerably better as it's controllers can be tuned to work properly with just about anything. For most aircraft in FAR, you'd start by doubling the scalar on the pitch control and work from there. 'tis what I use, and with much success. It can even land for you.

[mikegarrison]

19 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

1. How do I make a craft that can land at low speed (80m/s and under) but also not get its wings torn off when maneuvering at high speeds?

This is actually quite difficult. In real life, airplanes use flaps and other "high lift devices" to allow them to fly at low speed. Without those, you may need to learn to land at high speed (and maybe use a parachute to slow down).

[steve_v]

1 minute ago, mikegarrison said:

and maybe use a parachute to slow down

I'll add that this is often a good idea anyway. KSPs wheel physics get mighty janky (particularly under braking) at >80m/s, and for anything resembling an SSTO spaceplane you'll probably be landing faster than that if you want it to have a respectable payload fraction. Use drag chutes, ideally RealChute drag chutes.

[Vortexian2]

Thanks for the info but I still have a few problems.

15 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Install KJR if you haven't already.

First of all I have installed KJR.

15 minutes ago, steve_v said:

DPCR

What is DPCR, I looked it up but I don't think the answer I got was the right one?

17 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Flaps, slats, and variable wing geometry can help with this to a point.
I've made many an aircraft that can land at <80m/s and still do mach 4+ at altitude, but you do need to watch how you handle the controls if you want the wings to stay attached. Real-life aircraft can't pull 15G in a turn without coming apart, and the same is true in FAR.

I know this but, how though. Do I simply have to slow down a bit before turning? I thought this might be a solution but is this the best one? Also you said "flaps, slats, and variable wing geometry can help with this to a point" but you didn't mention what types of flaps, slats, and wing geometry can help. Or am I just clueless and you just mean to use swept wings and bigger/more flaps?

27 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Kramax Autopilot is considerably better as it's controllers can be tuned to work properly with just about anything. For most aircraft in FAR, you'd start by doubling the scalar on the pitch control and work from there. 'tis what I use, and with much success. It can even land for you.

Thanks for the suggestion I will check it out, looks good.

22 minutes ago, steve_v said:

I'll add that this is often a good idea anyway. KSPs wheel physics get mighty janky (particularly under braking) at >80m/s, and for anything resembling an SSTO spaceplane you'll probably be landing faster than that if you want it to have a respectable payload fraction. Use drag chutes, ideally RealChute drag chutes.

I am using realchutes but when I land at >80m/s and I use the chutes my craft usually begins to turn and roles off the runway. Is this normal and its just the the ksc's runway is to small? Because when I did this in stock ksp this didn't happen. Also speaking of KSP's wheel physics is there a way to make your craft not bounce or begin to spin randomly when landing. Also I am having problems with the small landing gear parts even in stock. When I use them it's like there is a bump in the runway and it causes the craft to bounce up when it hits it. Is anyone else having this issue or is it just me?

Thank you for the replies and sorry for the long response and the 5 million more questions.

[steve_v]

2 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

What is DPCR

Dynamic Pressure Control Reduction. One of the flight assist toggles in the FAR window. Specifically put there to help in keeping your wings attached.
 

3 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

Do I simply have to slow down a bit before turning?

That or turn more gently. Analogue control helps here, either by using a joystick or the time-honoured PWM fingers method (tapping controls rather than holding keys). DPCR helps a lot.
 

5 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

what types of flaps, slats, and wing geometry can help

Most things that help IRL will work in FAR too. Look at real aircraft, copy, adapt.

 

10 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

I am using realchutes but when I land at >80m/s and I use the chutes my craft usually begins to turn and roles off the runway.

Use one chute, centrally attached and on the lower half of the craft to force the nose down. Lock steering and stay off the brakes. Pray to the gods of Unity physics. The usual stuff.

 

12 minutes ago, Vortexian2 said:

Also speaking of KSP's wheel physics is there a way to make your craft not bounce or begin to spin randomly when landing. Also I am having problems with the small landing gear parts even in stock.
...
Is anyone else having this issue or is it just me?

You and everyone else, ever since the new and "improved" wheel physics landed. We've been collectively whining at Squad about it for years.
KSPWheel (+ the stock patches from KerbalFoundries) makes all this rubbish behaviour go away (in stock as well), but it has a performance tax in it's current incarnation. If you can live with that' it's a fix.
If you can't handle performance with KSPWheel, you might calm the wheels demonic pogo-sticks down a little by twiddling the advanced tweakables (spring, damper). I've had limited success with this, but it's too much of a black-art to go into detail here even if I could articulate it, which I probably can not.

TL;DR: KSPs wheels suck. Others have claimed it's just because we're doing it wrong, but I'll be blowed if I know how to explain that. You'll have to ask them.

[Vortexian2]

7 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Dynamic Pressure Control Reduction. One of the flight assist toggles in the FAR window. Specifically put there to help in keeping your wings attached.

I never saw that on the far window, I'll have to look for that.

 

8 minutes ago, steve_v said:

KSPWheel (+ the stock patches from KerbalFoundries) makes all this rubbish behaviour go away (in stock as well), but it has a performance tax in it's current incarnation. If you can live with that' it's a fix.

I'll have to check it out, sounds promising.

8 minutes ago, steve_v said:

demonic pogo-sticks

Accurate description.

Thank you, you have answered my questions and now all I have to do is pray to the almighty kraken and the unity physics gods for safe flying.

 

[Vanamonde]

If your wings are tearing off, you're either going to fast or you plane is just too big. Pictures of it might help diagnose problems. 

[Corax]

Good advice here, with the possible exception of KJR. I haven't used it, ever, and have not felt the need to, also ever.

Keeping mass down is really important, thankfully you can adjust at least the wing parts and control surfaces to more useful numbers. IIRC I was tuning them down to 0.2 or even lower–it's been a while since I used FAR, mostly because it never felt quite stable enough ever since @ferram4 went silent.

Also, I wouldn't consider 80m/s particularly "slow", that's still ~290km/h. A slow plane in my book is somewhere up to maybe 50m/s, the real life Fi-156 (an exceptionally slow flyer) would stall around 50km/h, that's ~15m/s. Haven't managed to design something like that in FAR myself though. Disclaimer: I'm neither a pilot nor an aerodynamicist.

 

Also, full ack on wheels and ground-based physics in general. Consecutively getting worse with each iteration, I really wonder what's going on there in Unity, or KSP, or Squad?

Edited March 31, 2020 by Corax

[steve_v]

2 hours ago, Corax said:

I was tuning them down to 0.2 or even lower–it's been a while since I used FAR, mostly because it never felt quite stable enough ever since @ferram4 went silent.

I use 0.6-0.8 for kerbin-only stuff (which I like to throw around a bit), and 0.2-0.3 for spaceplanes where dry mass is a big deal.
As for stability, the latest FARc seems fine in 1.9.1, I have no major issues with it.

 

2 hours ago, Corax said:

I wouldn't consider 80m/s particularly "slow", that's still ~290km/h.

Yeah, true. This is KSP though, so assuming depleted-uranium parts, no ground-effect, and an intent to go to space.

Edited March 31, 2020 by steve_v