[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[AndreyATGB]

Hi! Sorry for the noob questions, but is there something like an "official" rescaling mod? I would love to try the Plugin, but if I understand correctly, with FAR it's a bit too easy to get into orbit. I don't want to go full RSS, but at least stock-game difficulty would be nice.

I don't know if it still works, but KIDS by ferram scales ISP, effectively making the game harder/easier. It's in his sig http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/52882-0-21-Kerbal-Isp-Difficulty-Scaler-v1-0?p=699967#post699967.

[DaMichel]

Are cargo bays currently known to (not)work?

In flight, they shield nothing for me as i can see from the drag force display. The shielding prediction in the editor is okay though.

[IronStar]

I ve finally managed to solve my problem, and it really reveals that i am really dumb and should work on my skills. For the in flight GUI to appear the command module must be root. Thats all.

[RoboRay]

I ve finally managed to solve my problem, and it really reveals that i am really dumb and should work on my skills. For the in flight GUI to appear the command module must be root. Thats all.

Oh, now that's interesting.

I wouldn't call you dumb for it, though, as that's not really obvious that you must start with a command pod (or not use SelectRoot to change it).

[Kalloran]

This is a x-post from the RT2 thread for the purpose of cross-mod troubleshooting:

I've now had sequential crashes attempting to load a saved launch vehicle that incorporates RT2 parts AFTER installing FAR. I must emphasize that I built the rocket non-FAR, installed FAR, re-started KSP, and attempted to load the saved vehicle in the VAB. I'm running KSPx64 on a Windows 7 64-bit box. RT2 v1.4.0 and FAR v0.14.0.2.

The relevant part of the output_log:

CommSat Mk2 loaded!

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

BuildEngineer: OnSave

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

CommSat Mk2 - CommSat Mk2

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

ArgumentNullException: Argument cannot be null.
Parameter name: source
  at System.Linq.Check.SourceAndPredicate (System.Object source, System.Object predicate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at System.Linq.Enumerable.Where[UIPartActionWindow] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 predicate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at RemoteTech.UIPartActionMenuPatcher.Wrap (.Vessel parent, System.Action`2 pass) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at RemoteTech.ModuleSPU.HookPartMenus () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at RemoteTech.ModuleSPU.FixedUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

ArgumentNullException: Argument cannot be null.
Parameter name: source
  at System.Linq.Check.SourceAndPredicate (System.Object source, System.Object predicate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at System.Linq.Enumerable.Where[UIPartActionWindow] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 predicate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at RemoteTech.UIPartActionMenuPatcher.Wrap (.Vessel parent, System.Action`2 pass) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at RemoteTech.ModuleSPU.HookPartMenus () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at RemoteTech.ModuleSPU.FixedUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

BuildEngineer: OnStart (Editor)

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

BuildEngineer: OnEditorAttach

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

BuildEngineer: OnLoad

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FlightEngineer: OnStart (Editor)

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

Crash!!!
SymInit: Symbol-SearchPath: '.;C:\Users\James\Documents\KSP Full\ksp-win64-0-24-0\KSP_win64;C:\Users\James\Documents\KSP Full\ksp-win64-0-24-0\KSP_win64;C:\Windows;C:\Windows\system32;SRV*C:\websymbols*http://msdl.microsoft.com/download/symbols;', symOptions: 530, UserName: 'James'
OS-Version: 6.1.7600 () 0x100-0x1

The error.log:

Unity Player [version: Unity 4.5.2f1_9abb1b59b47c]

KSP_x64.exe caused an Access Violation (0xc0000005)
  in module KSP_x64.exe at 0033:03cf0000.

Error occurred at 2014-07-22_090826.

UPDATE: I uninstalled FAR and it's still crashing, but now I'm getting errors related to my DecoupleforX64. Well...looks like this was coincidental. Unregard.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Kalloran

[KerbMav]

Hello James

I must emphasize that I built the rocket non-FAR, installed FAR, re-started KSP, and attempted to load the saved vehicle in the VAB.

I am no good really at reading error logs, but I do know that a saved craft can have very different information for parts than the game expects/than the parts in its current form in gamedata.

[Kalloran]

@KerbMav: Yeah, I'm on the same page as you. I'm just trying to give these guys the exact sequence of what I did to generate the crash. I hope to dig into mod-development when I have time, if anything so I can talk on the same level when some of this stuff happens. As of right now, I know next to nothing so I can only give my exact process to get to that point. I don't know...maybe FAR is known to break some non-FAR launch vehicles...in which case, I needed to upgrade those CommSats to a new Block anyway.

UPDATE: I uninstalled FAR and it's still crashing, but now I'm getting errors related to my DecoupleforX64. Well...looks like this was coincidental. Unregard.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Kalloran

[KerbMav]

So Ferram4 this was the craft I was having problems with, but your updated 13.3 version actually fixed it. Now it works better than intended.

I am so full of hope to find a working plane at home today!

[Hodo]

I am so full of hope to find a working plane at home today!

I am still running .23.5 on that install from that picture. I don't know how .24 is working I haven't messed with it much since it came out.

[WestAir]

N00b question: How do you do gravity turns in the early stages of the tech tree? (With no RCS, but just simple airfoils and inertials)? Even a small 2* turn at any altitude (I can even start my GT @ 25,000m and do a light 2 degree bank from vertical) and I'll flip over backwards and tear my rocket apart. Every time. These aren't some crazy rockets. I'm talking a 2 stage rocket with two boosters on the sides. (Still early game). I tried doing a slight 1-2 degree bank right after liftoff so I can follow the prograde into the horizon, but there's absolutely no way to stop it from listing into retrograde and exploding. After a dozen or so small tweeks with the same result.

TL;DR: Early game. Gravity turns. How?

[Jasmir]

Hi Ferram,

i think i have a issue with FAR. It seems, that parts that are covered by fairings (at least KW or proceduals) are exposed to the dynamic pressure.

I think, this is not intended.

Pic 1, a part break:

Pic 2, in the VAB the part says "isShielded=true"

I've the output.log saved, but "my" normal filehosters (wikisend, filebin) seems to have problems ATM.

If you really need it (or other informations), tell me and i will find a other way to provide it.

[ferram4]

@DaMichel: I know that there is an error for the payload fairings, but not for the cargo bays. I'll look into it further.

@IronStar: That should not be an issue, as I fixed that bug before uploading v0.14.0.2. That is very, very strange.

@WestAir: Why would you even consider using RCS for a rocket during ascent? Anyway, it sounds like you have a stability issue, and you should really post a picture of your rocket so the problems can be diagnosed. Personally, I suspect you're flying with too high a TWR; anything above 1.6 is asking for trouble, and it's very easy to reach high TWRs for the early launches, so you'd want to use the thrust limiter on the engines to keep things in check.

@Jasmir: Known issue. Use launch clamps and stage them and it'll work fine.

[guitarxe]

N00b question: How do you do gravity turns in the early stages of the tech tree? (With no RCS, but just simple airfoils and inertials)? Even a small 2* turn at any altitude (I can even start my GT @ 25,000m and do a light 2 degree bank from vertical) and I'll flip over backwards and tear my rocket apart. Every time. These aren't some crazy rockets. I'm talking a 2 stage rocket with two boosters on the sides. (Still early game). I tried doing a slight 1-2 degree bank right after liftoff so I can follow the prograde into the horizon, but there's absolutely no way to stop it from listing into retrograde and exploding. After a dozen or so small tweeks with the same result.

TL;DR: Early game. Gravity turns. How?

I also couldn't really figure out what I was doing wrong when I just started using FAR (actually, just two days ago). I think I kind of figured it out now - I can launch rockets into orbit finally - but I'm still no expert on it so this is only advice.

The first thing is thrust - high TWR will simply rip your rocket to pieces as it barrels through the thick lower atmosphere. The mod author has recommended multiple times in this thread to keep that below 1.6. Personally I aim for ~ 1.2 at launch. This number then increases as the fuel burns and you get lighter, but at that point the atmosphere is less thick and the ship can handle the stress (or at least I'm assuming that's what's happening). In fact by the time I am on my second stage (somewhere at 30-40km) I throttle to max with my liquid engines which are at that point something like 4+ TWR.

The second, and probably the biggest thing, is center of mass and center of lift! This is likely what's causing your rockets to flip over backwards and break their backs. What I have figured out is that, as a rule of thumb, you want your rockets to be top-heavy. You want your COM (center of mass), to always be above your COL (center of lift). In fact, you want your COL to be all the way back as far as you possibly can. But remember that as you drop stages and run out of fuel, the center of mass will tend to shift downards towards the heavy engines. When this passes the center of lift, this is what causes your rocket to flip backwards on itself.

So while you are designing your rockets, check for your center of mass and center of lift on each stage, both wet AND dry.

Thirdly is the piloting method. Where in stock KSP you barrel straight up and then pitch over, that just will not work with FAR. For me this method works:

Turn off SAS (I find that it only introduces oscilations that get bigger and bigger until it rips the ship apart).

Press Caps Lock key to enable fine control.

Almost at the start of launch, pitch 5 degrees over (carefully! A single tap on the D key will be enough to start your rocket to pitch over). You will notice the rocket will try to pitch over further and you will have to fight it. Try to keep it at about 5 degrees for your initial launch. It's ok if it pitches further to about 10 or 15 degrees, but if you don't keep it under control it'll go out of control and pitch below the horizon. By the time your first stage is almost done, you will notice the rocket rapidly becomes harder to keep control of and pitch will dip to around 45 degrees. This is good, don't worry.

Once you stage and engage your second stage, this is very important, stop fighting the pitch. If you try now to pull the pitch back you will only flip your rocket. Let it go. At this point personally I only correct pitch very very slightly so that the position marker on the nav-ball is on the left side of the prograde circle marker and stays there. The rocket will keep slowly pitching but that's ok. I've even just completely let go of the pitch controls at this point a few times and let the thing fly itself directly into the prograde and gotten into orbit just fine as well. I only try to keep pitch up a bit higher because I use remote tech and don't want my probes to fly too far down range and out of communication before their orbital insertion manuever.

That's it! Once you get one or two rockets into orbit it'll become just as routine and easy as stock, only more fun

Edit: random tip - I've tried adding winglets at the bottom of my rocket to have more control, but have found them to have the opposite effect and destabilize my rocket. So I leave them off. I'm probably positioning them incorrectly, but I'm able to launch without winglets fine.

Edited July 22, 2014 by guitarxe

[WestAir]

@WestAir: Why would you even consider using RCS for a rocket during ascent? Anyway, it sounds like you have a stability issue, and you should really post a picture of your rocket so the problems can be diagnosed. Personally, I suspect you're flying with too high a TWR; anything above 1.6 is asking for trouble, and it's very easy to reach high TWRs for the early launches, so you'd want to use the thrust limiter on the engines to keep things in check.

Latest rocket: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/ssj14vegetajr/Rocket1_zpsa189d804.png

For launch, I only use the 4 "boosters", burn those off then use the main. Long story short, it will flip on its back and break apart if there is ANY change in pitch before 25km. [Even a light 2 degree nudge is enough to end the flight]. Typical launch profile has become a launch, straight up, until about 25km, then I'll pitch over 90 degrees to round out the orbit. It's a horrible waste of Dv and I can't for the life of me make a lunar return flight with such a Dv loss.

OBVIOUSLY I messed up somewhere. I just don't know where.

[Guest]

COL in front of the COM. It's hardly surprising it flips. You need more fins at the base. Fins at the front are never a good idea, unless you need them for return (that said, it doesn't look like a spaceplane...). I'd say, remove the front winglets. They're the reason for the flip.

The only reason to ever have aerodynamic surfaces in front of a rocket would be if you're launching something that's supposed to return horizontally. That doesn't seem to be the case with your rocket, so get rid of them and launch again.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Guest

[WestAir]

COL in front of the COM. It's hardly surprising it flips. You need more fins at the base. Fins at the front are never a good idea, unless you need them for return (that said, it doesn't look like a spaceplane...). I'd say, remove the front winglets. They're the reason for the flip.

The only reason to ever have aerodynamic surfaces in front of a rocket would be if you're launching something that's supposed to return horizontally. That doesn't seem to be the case with your rocket, so get rid of them and launch again.

Thanks. I'll try this now. I also noticed that the mechjeb module added a lift vector when added to the finished rocket - a lift vector that threw the COL off the rocket centerline and off to the side somewhere. I think with your suggestion and removing mechjeb, I should be able to make my lunar return.

Thanks.

[Master Tao]

Also, try rebuilding the lifter to have two stages rather than one wide stage. Your thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR) is over 3 at launch and close to 8 by the time the lifter runs out of fuel.

[SnappingTurtle]

I'm wondering how to make the wing interactive effects properly understand what I'm doing. Do I have to start with one wing piece attached to the fuselage and branch the other wing pieces from that, or does it not matter? Thanks.

[ferram4]

@WestAir: You do not need that much engine. Also, as Dragon01 mentioned, get rid of the fins at the front; have you ever seen a throwing dart that had the fins at the back? Look at real life rockets and aerodynamic designs and look at the differences between them.

@SnappingTurtle: It doesn't matter how you build them out, the wing interactions are based on absolute position in space of each wing part.

[Lord DC]

:DThis mod is a must have. Thanks to Ferram4 for making this epic and useful mod.

[SnappingTurtle]

@SnappingTurtle: It doesn't matter how you build them out, the wing interactions are based on absolute position in space of each wing part.

But FAR still knows which pieces are part of the same wing?

Also, sorry for heavy questions but just in the past few minutes I've hit this baffling problem with a plane made with spaceplane plus parts; it keeps disintegrating. I was on a return from low orbit when the vertical stabilizers tore off at about 40kPa pressure, at practically zero angle of attack/sideslip. I reloaded and tried again. They tore off even earlier that time but I kept flying straight when the wings eventually tore off completely at 10km going 1km/s, again facing straight into the airflow. Finally I decided to abort the landing from the reload point and reboosted back out of the atmosphere when the vertical stabilizers and wings tore off at a few kPa, several seconds after I'd cut the throttle.

This is with the 32 bit program. I'm really not sure if this was me overstressing the aircraft or if this is a bug. If it is a bug it may even be a transient one I'll have to restart the game and try again.

[edit]

I reloaded the game and tried again, this time slowing to under 1km/s before dropping below 20km and it still disintegrated. I was at about 10 degrees angle of attack when the leading edge of the right wing tore off. Then I tried to continue pointing straight forward when the left wing tore off after a few seconds of flight like that.

Edited July 23, 2014 by SnappingTurtle

[Renegrade]

The FAR GUI is not showing in the VAB or flight.

I sort of have the opposite of this; the in-flight GUI appears.

Normally that's good, but it still stays on screen when I press F2 (everything else vanishes, ARP, VOID, stock indicators, but the Flight Systems Window and Flight Data Window stay open)...

EDIT: Just as a thought though, I have it enabled on Blizzy's Toolbar, instead of the stock bar, if that matters.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Renegrade

[Weatherman159]

@Jasmir: Known issue. Use launch clamps and stage them and it'll work fine.

I'm having the same problem as Jasmir, but I don't really understand your solution. Use launch clamps on what? Stage them when or how? I already have launch clamps on the vessel and this problem still occurs.

[NathanKell]

FAR recalculates drag whenever you remove parts from your vessel, e.g. stage away launch clamps. Ferram's saying once you do stage once, drag will be correct.

[jonnyt21]

I do love this mod but I have to say I think it makes launches too easy, for example most first stages can make it to orbit and there is barely any use for upper stages. This is not like this in real life because in real life it takes a lot more delta v to reach orbit yet in ksp it takes less. This wouldn't normally be a problem with the stock ksp as the atmosphere is much thicker and compensates for this, however FAR makes it more realistic so therefore I think it makes it easier, maybe too easy, for example I never have any use for solid rocket boosters to increase the payload capacity.

Is there any way to increase the difficulty or would I just need to decrease the efficiency of all engines in the game?