[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[jrandom]

Modify this in the config:

<string name="ctrlSurfTimeConstant">0.25</string>

I THINK it used to be 0.05, not really sure, test a bit

Will do. With the new slower number I'm seeing some flight control wobble similar to (but less severe than) the old SAS wobble, but with the added issue of sometimes continually amplifying existing wobble. I'll try out 0.05 and see how it goes.

[Surefoot]

Mach 0.8 - 1.2 at AoA of 0.3 degrees: No roll twitches observed.

Mach 0.8 - 1.08 at AoA of 2.8 degrees: No roll twitches observed.

Mach 1.5-4.8 at AoA of 1.0-3.3 degrees: Roll twitches observed, usually somewhere between 2.5 and 3.0 AoA. (Aircraft is sensitive to pitch, but I'm trying to pause as soon as a twitch occurs so I can read off the AoA.) A few occurred around AoA of 2.2. Severity increases as the mach number increases.

I confirm these observations, it's like being on a bumpy road, the plane flies straight and all of sudden it's as if someone kicked it. What i see is a roll twitch but i suspect there's more to it (pitch too i guess, didnt see yaw but my design is very stable there). At transonic speeds, at 2.5 to 2.8° AoA, nothing special happens. Starts to be noticeable at mach 2+ and becomes prevalent over mach 4 (went to mach 6, i confirm the effect is amplified with higher speeds).

Also compared to previous versions i lose a lot of pitch authority on my designs, to the point i cannot take off anymore without using the ski jump at the end of the runway.

[Ashilstraza]

I am getting an exception with the latest release (0.12.4). On loading a previous craft there is a null pointer exception which seems to be coming from control surfaces. When originally placed they are fine, but when reloaded they no longer are. I've tested this down to a fresh install and only the latest release of the mod itself. Testing was just any pod and any control surface, no other parts attached.

cut of output_log:

------------------- initializing editor mode... ------------------

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

editor started

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

Untitled Space Craft loaded!

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

Untitled Space Craft - Untitled Space Craft

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

NullReferenceException
  at (wrapper managed-to-native) UnityEngine.Component:InternalGetTransform ()

  at UnityEngine.Component.get_transform () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at ferram4.FARControllableSurface.CalculateSurfaceFunctions () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at ferram4.FARControllableSurface.OnStart (StartState state) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at Part.ModulesOnStart () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at Part+.MoveNext () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

probeCoreCube (Part): -1 FULL

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

Probodobodyne QBE: FAR drag model added; Size: (0.5, 0.6, 0.5), LD (0.5, 0.5, 0.0), UD (0.5, 0.5, 0.0)

Surface area: 0.8985998

Fineness Ratio: 1.198498

TaperRatio: 1

Cross Sectional Area: 0.1874429

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

button visibilities have changed, forcing auto-size 

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

saving toolbar settings (SPH)

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

Mass: 99.99999

S: 1.819668

MAC: 1.311767

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at ferram4.FAREditorGUI.CalculateStabilityDerivs (Single u0, Single q, Single M, Single alpha, Single beta, Single phi) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at ferram4.FAREditorGUI.StabilityDerivativeGUI (Boolean tmp) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at ferram4.FAREditorGUI.ActualGUI (Int32 windowID) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UnityEngine.GUILayout+LayoutedWindow.DoWindow (Int32 windowID) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UnityEngine.GUI.CallWindowDelegate (UnityEngine.WindowFunction func, Int32 id, UnityEngine.GUISkin _skin, Int32 forceRect, Single width, Single height, UnityEngine.GUIStyle style) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

Game State Saved as persistent

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

[HighLogic]: =========================== Scene Change : From SPH to SPACECENTER =====================

[ferram4]

Confirmed. Thanks for the report; not sure what's causing it yet, but I'll track it down.

[Eadrom]

I'm having an issue getting FAR to load properly. KSP is loading up, but I'm not getting the FAR flight system button to show up, I'm not getting drag info during flight when right clicking parts, I'm not getting options in the action group manager on aerodynamic parts.

I narrowed this down to using the updated version of the toolbar plugin packaged with TACLS 8.0. When using the updated toolbar mod, FAR doesn't work but the toolbar button works and I can move it around as needed. When I use the older version of the toolbar mod, both TACLS and FAR show up on the button and FAR does work. However, the toolbar bugs out on me pretty hard. When I don't have FAR loaded, TACLS 8.0 and toolbar 1.4 work together just fine.

I think my issue might be that FAR needs one version of Toolbar to work but when I use that older version, TACLS 8.0 trying to hook into the older version of Toolbar is causing my issue. If I want to remove this problem, I have to choose between using FAR or TACLS.

Is there something I can update in a config file to update FAR to be compatible with the updated toolbar?

[ferram4]

Delete the toolbar-settings.dat in the GameData folder and try running both FAR and TACLS with Toolbar 1.4. Make sure there are no other copies of any toolbar stuff lying around that might be causing the issue. There's no reason why it shouldn't work; if you can't get it to work you'll need to post an output_log.txt (from KSP_Data) so I can see what's going wrong.

[Eadrom]

I removed the old toolbar folder to my desktop, copied in a fresh copy of toolbar 1.4, and deleted the toolbar-settings.dat in my game data folder. Booted up KSP, no FAR button, no FAR flight system, no drag/lift data, etc.

I private messaged you a link to download the requested log. Thank you for taking a look at this.

EDIT:

A little more testing shows that I'm not getting lift from wings and such when using toolbar 1.4.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Eadrom

[ferram4]

Yeah, looking at the output_log it looks like the issue is that the game is choking on loading the dlls for some reason. I just tried adding TACLS and Toolbar v1.4.0 to my install and didn't have any issues. I'll also note that KER isn't loading for you as well, and you're having some errors with Kethane too... Hmmm... It looks like it's breaking on the parts that directly reference Toolbar stuff.

Try this: download FAR, KER and TACLS again, as well as Toolbar v1.4 in case any of that got corrupted. Delete the Engineer, FerramAerospaceResearch, ThunderAerospace and 000_Toolbar folders from your GameData folder and reinstall all of them. See if that fixes it.

I don't know what could be causing the issue here, and I haven't been able to reproduce the problem, so you're going to have to do some bugfixing yourself. Make sure that KSP has full permissions in the folder that it's situated in and try removing and reinstalling mods until the issue is fixed. It might just be an odd conflict somewhere.

[NathanKell]

Just reaffirming the permissions thing. If you installed KSP in Program Files (or if you're using the steam version and steam is in Program Files) and you're using a Windows OS more recent than XP, you likely don't have full permissions in that folder. Move your KSP out of there.

[Eadrom]

Yeah, looking at the output_log it looks like the issue is that the game is choking on loading the dlls for some reason. I just tried adding TACLS and Toolbar v1.4.0 to my install and didn't have any issues. I'll also note that KER isn't loading for you as well, and you're having some errors with Kethane too... Hmmm... It looks like it's breaking on the parts that directly reference Toolbar stuff.

Try this: download FAR, KER and TACLS again, as well as Toolbar v1.4 in case any of that got corrupted. Delete the Engineer, FerramAerospaceResearch, ThunderAerospace and 000_Toolbar folders from your GameData folder and reinstall all of them. See if that fixes it.

I don't know what could be causing the issue here, and I haven't been able to reproduce the problem, so you're going to have to do some bugfixing yourself. Make sure that KSP has full permissions in the folder that it's situated in and try removing and reinstalling mods until the issue is fixed. It might just be an odd conflict somewhere.

I've not had issues with KER or Kethane that I've noticed. Redownloading the suggested mods for fresh installs. Hopefully that fixes it. Note that I'm using a fresh install of KSP and testing using a new save each time. I run my different mod setups of KSP in a folder I keep on my desktop. I'll check the permissions thing and check that for issues.

Just reaffirming the permissions thing. If you installed KSP in Program Files (or if you're using the steam version and steam is in Program Files) and you're using a Windows OS more recent than XP, you likely don't have full permissions in that folder. Move your KSP out of there.

Windows 7 and KSP has lived in my user folder the entire time I've played.

Thank you for the ideas, checking things now.

EDIT:

Wanted to add a complete mod list on the copy of .23 that's having issues.

Active Memory Reduction Mod

Deadly Reentry *

Kerbal Engineer

Ferram Aerospace Research

Kerbal Attachment System

Kerbal Joint Reinforcement

KESA Resource Integration

Kethane

KSP Interstellar

KSP Stock Expansion *

KW Rocketry *

Procedural Fairings *

Remote Tech 2 (signal delay disabled)

RLA_Stockalike *

ScanSat

TAC Life Support

I also have Module Manager 1.5.6 and Toolbar 1.4 and whatever version of Treeloader that comes bundled with KSP Interstellar.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Eadrom

[Eadrom]

Reloaded with fresh installs of KER, FAR, TACLS, MM, and Toolbar 1.4.

Original output_log.txt: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9504368/KSP/output_log.txt

Log after fresh installs of aforementioned mods: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9504368/KSP/output_log%20-%20fresh.txt

Time to start swapping out mods!

EDIT:

I did a stock loadup with just FAR, MM 1.5.6, and Toolbar 1.4 and am getting these same errors. Here is a log for that set up.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9504368/KSP/output_log%20-%20stock.txt

EDIT 2:

-.- I think I'm an idiot. I didn't check inside the Toolbar-1.4 folder. There's a duplicate GameData folder and THAT has the actual Toolbar 1.4 in it. Just tested. Stock set up with just FAR, MM 1.5.6, and a CORRECTLY installed Toolbar 1.4 loads up FAR correctly.

EDIT 3:

Yup, I'm an idiot. Incorrectly installed Toolbar 1.4 caused me my issue. Complete mod list is loaded and FAR is active. Wings have lift. Parts have lift/drag info when right clicked during flight. I apologize for wasting your time Ferram.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Eadrom

[7499275]

Hey guys, I have a few questions about this mod.

1. The wing leveler doesnt level my wings, should it when I press the "lvl" button?

2. When flying a SSTO that flies great without FAR suddenly has a roll oscillation and SAS doesn't kill this weird jittery oscillation.

EDIT: have the roll problem fixed, too big of wing control surfaces.

Edited January 3, 2014 by 7499275

[ferram4]

@Eadrom: Well, glad to know that's fixed, at least. Remember to look in the zip before copying things over.

@7499275: If you have SAS active when you turn on the wing leveler SAS will override the wing leveler, preventing it from doing anything. Also, if you're plane has a severe roll tendency the wing leveler might not be able to counteract it on the default settings. The default wing leveler settings are slightly low to prevent it from over-controlling like SAS tends to do, but it will balance most planes, it just takes time. The FAR control systems are nowhere near as twitchy and crazy as SAS is, since planes generally require a more restrained control system than rockets seem to.

[Firov]

Ferram, this is probably not important, but I thought I'd post it just in case.

I'm noticing a lot of FAR errors in my KSP.log file, such as the below.

[WRN 18:22:26.872] FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN at TV Tapered Wing XS

[WRN 18:22:26.873] FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN at NTBI 3.75x3 tailfin

[WRN 18:22:26.874] FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN at NTBI 3.75x3 tailfin

[WRN 18:22:26.899] FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN at TV Tapered Wing XS

[WRN 18:22:26.900] FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN at TV Tapered Wing XS

I'm pretty sure this was output while I was in the VAB.

[ferram4]

Yeah, I'm aware of that. It's part of the reason that the CoL is wrong in the editor and (in theory) it can cause errors in flight. I've got it fixed in my current build, and as soon as I'm sure there are no terrible errors I'll release v0.12.5.

[steakbbq]

Hi! Just wanted to say, Lovely MOD! I finally made a plane that is stable mostly utilizing the Data + Stability Derivatives. It took me quite some time to realize Yr derivitive was negative instead of positive because my vertical stabalizer was too far forwar/not big enough. Now My plane flys incredibly stable, I had it up to mach 3.7 before coming off the throttle because I was a fireball. I am pretty confused about a couple of the derivatives they don't seem to be making my craft unstable but they are out of bounds.

The two that go out of bounds sometimes are Xw (Change in X direction acceleration with respect to Z-direction velocity; should be positive) going negative just beyond mach one and also Zu (Change in Z-direction acceleration with respect to X-direction velocity; shoudl be negative) Going positive at the same time.

If I am to understand Xw correctly, it means that gravity is actually slowing down my x acceleration when it is - and for Zu, my forward speed is making my vertical speed decrease...

I'm not sure exactly what the implications are with this, and the plane seems to fly very stable and has a good static equilibrium as well as dynamic equilibrim ( so much as to actually correct itself after stallling) So what is wrong with my plane? What does this mean is happening?

Also my lxy product of inertia is 4 away from 0 and I don't think this is good either.

Hmm, I just got past mach 4 with the turbojet engine, i was just under 20,000 meters started burning up real bad, both engines blew up lol.. Is this the limit of atmospheric mach?

Edited January 4, 2014 by steakbbq

[Surefoot]

Depends on the engine, with the turboramjet / afterburner engines (found on this mod forum too) you can go up to mach 7.3 with the turboramjet at high altitude, and over mach 1 near ground level with the afterburner.

[DaMichel]

The two that go out of bounds sometimes are Xw (Change in X direction acceleration with respect to Z-direction velocity; should be positive) going negative just beyond mach one and also Zu (Change in Z-direction acceleration with respect to X-direction velocity; shoudl be negative) Going positive at the same time.

If I am to understand Xw correctly, it means that gravity is actually slowing down my x acceleration when it is - and for Zu, my forward speed is making my vertical speed decrease...

I'm not sure exactly what the implications are with this, and the plane seems to fly very stable and has a good static equilibrium as well as dynamic equilibrim ( so much as to actually correct itself after stallling) So what is wrong with my plane? What does this mean is happening?

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3421/0dsi.png

Made the same observations with my planes. There is a comment by Ferram a couple of pages back where he explains it a bit. Morale of the story: don't worry too much about those derivatives.

Also my lxy product of inertia is 4 away from 0 and I don't think this is good either.

It is 4*10^-6 in scientific notation. Look at the magnitude of the lxx, lyy, lzz values. The off-diagonals are much lower. So no need to worry.

Hmm, I just got past mach 4 with the turbojet engine, i was just under 20,000 meters started burning up real bad, both engines blew up lol.. Is this the limit of atmospheric mach?

Never experienced that. Perhaps the engines overheated?

Edited January 4, 2014 by DaMichel

[xpi3rr3x]

Hello, does anyone have a tip how to successfully return the shuttle to the atmosphere with this mod? Always lose control of the shuttle during reentry, but when testing in the atmosphere flies well. I use B9 aerospace, KW Rocketry and shuttle engines parts.

Shuttle

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/34/2y02.jpg/

reentry

[Zatie12]

Hey guys, How can I reverse the pitch direction?

[AbeS]

In the settings you can edit your controls, is that what you mean?

[Zatie12]

In the settings you can edit your controls, is that what you mean?

At the moment the elevator is moving the wrong way, I need to reverse the direction of travel. Last time I used FAR there seemed to be a flight control list with options to reverse direction but I can't seem to find in the latest version.

[enki]

Did you rotate the root part at all? All of my controls were backwards when I started with a backwards root part.

[enki]

I've run into a space program-breaking issue with FAR. Procedural Fairings are causing way too much lift and adding some winglets did not fix it. The same rocket without FAR looks much more stable.

edit0: reloaded the rocket, things looked very odd

edit: Started playing around with the FAR GUI and the rocket looks flightworthy again. Not sure what is going on here.

Edited January 4, 2014 by enki

[steakbbq]

Made the same observations with my planes. There is a comment by Ferram a couple of pages back where he explains it a bit. Morale of the story: don't worry too much about those derivatives.

It is 4*10^-6 in scientific notation. Look at the magnitude of the lxx, lyy, lzz values. The off-diagonals are much lower. So no need to worry.

Never experienced that. Perhaps the engines overheated?

I will go look for that comment, I figured it wasn't too important because my plane flew so well, however I would just like some understanding. Yea, I haven't been able to find it. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/20451-0-23-Ferram-Aerospace-Research-v0-12-4-Aero-Fixes-For-Planes-Rockets-12-29?p=858104&viewfull=1#post858104 is that it? If so I couldn't find where anyone actually replies to him.

Ah, it is in scientific notation, I am embarrassed.

Also I am encountering a quite annoying bug.

After a flight if I try to calculate the stability derivatives It fails and this exception comes up in the debug console. Also happens if I reload the same craft I am currently working on.

The only way I have found to fix it is to save the craft hit new then reload the craft... I am not sure if its because of mods I am using or what.

I am using deadly re-entry, and yes perhaps they did overheat while I was on fire, just a coincidence.

Edited January 4, 2014 by steakbbq