[UNOFFICIAL/FANMADE] 0.18 Discussion thread

[Guest themakut]

All right, statements like this have brought me out of my lurking.

As everyone knows by now, docking, in itself, is easy to implement (Erkle did it in half an hour, or so I've heard).

So why doesn't Squad include docking?

Well, why do you want docking?

You probably want docking for doing Gemini-style missions, or streamlining getting to other places, or rescuing lander vehicles, or landing your ascent stage back on Kerbin.

Here's the thing. Docking without a working IVA means that every time you want to get a Kerman to a docked ship, you have to EVA, then move to the other ship, then enter. If you have a working IVA, then you just walk the Kerman to the docked ship. So Squad needs to finish the IVAs first.

Additionally, you would probably want to launch two spacecraft together, so you don't have to do silly things like launch one spacecraft, move it 500 meters off, launch your launch vehicle, then move your spacecraft onto your launch vehicle and dock with it on the launch pad.

This requires an upgraded staging system and an upgraded VAB, because the VAB determines staging by creating a tree from the command module, and if you have two command modules, you get a mess by this method. So Squad needs to finish the VAB first.

Also, fuel transfer. However, this could probably be done with docking, so I won't talk about how hard or easy it is.

Thank you for agreeing with me. There is a lot of work required before docking can be implemented. And Squad just doesn't want to commit to such a huge job, for reasons unknown to most.

Additionally, I can't wait for a campaign mode. It's the main thing I've been hoping for, even more than planets.

[SteevyT]

Thank you for agreeing with me. There is a lot of work required before docking can be implemented. And Squad just doesn't want to commit to such a huge job, for reasons unknown to most.

Probably because IVA's need to be implemented first. And some sort of code for fuel transfer, proper vessel control (as in one command pod can control other vessels docked). Not to mention the current docking mod occasionally launches things off at 27 times the speed of light.

[Oicani]

Probably because IVA's need to be implemented first.

I don't see the logic behind this, but oh well.

I've honestly given up on expecting the things I'm excited about to come to KSP, since all the (in my opinion) less important things come first in the development. I'm just chilling and thanking for whatever I get at this point.

[Ted]

Okay, seriously; people need to stop making incredibly sweeping statements such as "Squad doesn't want to put in the work hours for that." and "As everyone knows by now, docking, in itself, is easy to implement".

We don't know what their Development Roadmap is, they could be building up the framework for docking, while also creating other content for the game and we wouldn't know anything about it. Furthermore, the docking that has been implemented via Add-Ons is not even close to the docking that would be implemented later in the game, it doesn't deal with combining vessels, crews etc and other features.

It's sad that this even needs to be said again, but if the general tone of this thread continues as it is, it will be locked. Don't make us lock every thread about updates, keep the thread rational and free of any slight Squad-bashing.

Thanks.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Ted

[Lesarthois]

IMO, docking need at least two thing to work : a proper coordinate system and better navigation tools. By now, we can orbit, get into planets, land and get back. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome already But going to a specific orbit is another thing.

Then. docking. What for? You slam your vessel into another vessel? and? that's it? Docking is going to be interesting, (still, in my opinion) only when there will be spaces stations in KSP, or possibility to make one.

So it also take to have EVA and IVA being more than " I can look into the cockpit" and "going munwalking".

So first let's expect either a coordinate system, or space station pieces; maybe satellites first to learn how to put things into orbit.

I would still prefer KSP to include probes and rovers in 0.18.

[Nibb31]

All right, statements like this have brought me out of my lurking.

As everyone knows by now, docking, in itself, is easy to implement (Erkle did it in half an hour, or so I've heard).

So why doesn't Squad include docking?

Well, why do you want docking?

You probably want docking for doing Gemini-style missions, or streamlining getting to other places, or rescuing lander vehicles, or landing your ascent stage back on Kerbin.

Here's the thing. Docking without a working IVA means that every time you want to get a Kerman to a docked ship, you have to EVA, then move to the other ship, then enter. If you have a working IVA, then you just walk the Kerman to the docked ship. So Squad needs to finish the IVAs first.

I disagree with this. I really don't see the point of implementing IVA. You can transfer crew just like you would transfer fuel through a pretty simple UI window.

Additionally, you would probably want to launch two spacecraft together, so you don't have to do silly things like launch one spacecraft, move it 500 meters off, launch your launch vehicle, then move your spacecraft onto your launch vehicle and dock with it on the launch pad.

This requires an upgraded staging system and an upgraded VAB, because the VAB determines staging by creating a tree from the command module, and if you have two command modules, you get a mess by this method. So Squad needs to finish the VAB first.

This I do agree with. Staging needs a huge overhaul IMO, to deal with docked spacecraft but also alternate sequences (like firing an escape tower for example). All you need really is to be able to reconfigure your stages on docked ships. You can already rearrange stages during flight, but it's cumbersome to say the least.

We also need multiple controllable pods (for Apollo-like missions, or separating landing probes from a main satellite)

Also, fuel transfer. However, this could probably be done with docking, so I won't talk about how hard or easy it is.

Pretty easy considering there are already mods that do it quite well.

[Nibb31]

IMO, docking need at least two thing to work : a proper coordinate system and better navigation tools. By now, we can orbit, get into planets, land and get back. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome already But going to a specific orbit is another thing.

Then. docking. What for? You slam your vessel into another vessel? and? that's it? Docking is going to be interesting, (still, in my opinion) only when there will be spaces stations in KSP, or possibility to make one.

So it also take to have EVA and IVA being more than " I can look into the cockpit" and "going munwalking".

Docking is the space station feature.

I would still prefer KSP to include probes and rovers in 0.18.

There are mods for that. I would rather see Squad concentrate on features and game mechanisms that cannot be easily implemented with plugins than extra content that can be added by mods.

[Puddinsky]

My 10cents. I would love to see centrifugal forces working in space. I have built ring ships and you can glue a Kerb to them, but it would be awesome if that spinning motion creates artificial gravity so that they could walk on the walls. I have no idea how hard that'll be to do. Probably quite hard, but still. It would be pretty awesome

Also I imagine that a first person view for the crew wouldn't be too hard? Like IVA but when they are outside the ship. So that too

[Richy teh space man]

What I would like to see in version 0.18 is the ability for your Kerbonauts to be able to do something while on eva, such as collect rock/air samples, do various other science experiments, etc. Evas atm are fun to do and I think something like this is a logical expansion.

Something I suspect will be for the career mode though..

[erkha343]

Orbital and Munar assembly of spacecraft.

[Shadownailshot]

A lot of people seem to want this thread locked. For all the people that are bashing Squad, let me say, if I was Squad I would send you an apology email for wasting your time and money with a game and company that you don't like and disagree with. I would credit your money back, and stop supporting your game. I mean, seriously, if all you're gonna do is complain about what Squad is not doing and saying that they're lazy (to me this means you have absolutely no idea what goes in to making a game), then just leave.

[Tauge]

Orbital and Munar assembly of spacecraft.

I can't quite remember where I saw it, and if it was HarvesteR or Nova, but they basically said there were no plans for Orbital assembly.

I honestly think this will be a quality of life update. While they aren't flashy, and don't get people excited...it doesn't matter because they are necessary, and they make the game experience better. I have a ideas of where I'd take them, and I've already said them in the thread, but I'm not a member of Squad, so...I could be wrong.

[Warshawski]

And Squad just doesn't want to commit to such a huge job, for reasons unknown to most.

You, sir, are a complete and ignorant jackass who hasn't even the foggiest idea of what goes into creating a game. They WANT to put it in the game, thus why's it's on the Planned Features List; they have to lay the groundwork first. Why? you may ask. Here's why - ever try to build a house without a foundation? What do you think happens to the house if you don't? It collapses, doesn't it? Right....

[LaydeeDem]

I really do not want docking, EVA actions, ect. Until they do an update mainly focused on fixing bugs and polishing the current features. The VAB needs organization, and there is memory bugs and Space Cthulhu. I love the new features, but it doesn't mean you have to forget about older features.

Now can we please discuss 0.18 and stay on topic? Docking is not coming this update. Get over it.

[vexx32]

Aye, quit quibbling over docking. You'll just get this one locked as well. Once was enough.

I for one am hoping there'll be another bunch of optimisation for 0.18; with the new skysphere and planets, it appears some of us are going to need it. Or at least perhaps assign a team member to figuring out the cause of the memory overflow bugs that are plaguing every second person that posts in the Support section....

[Thaniel]

Aye, they chould do another one like the .16, or atleast to a degree. They didn´t add too much new stuff with .17, but they did a bunch of supporting stuff. That is good. I wouldn´t mind if they now concentrated on cleaning up any bugs/memory leaks that might be, or most of them, worked on completing the basic system for IVA, and did more work on some navigational/planning tools. From HarvesteR´s latest blag entry, it seems it is coming along nicely.

With the added distances with the newly added planets, precission is more important than ever. I can wait another update for any realy new stuff if it is for a good cause.

[Jay_Em]

I don't like having to wait ages for docking, but I understand why we're going to have to. However, I'd love it for Squad to add some kind of rover in 0.18. I don't think this would take huge amounts of time to implement (please correct me if I'm wrong here), and would really affect how the game works in terms of planetary exploration. Think about it- rescue missions would be a lot easier because you wouldn't have to get an exact landing point, you could explore much more easily, and it's just a fun thing to do. So basically, if I could demand one thing from 0.18, it would be rovers.

Out of interest, is anything definitely being worked on for 0.18?

[Frostiken]

A massive UI overhaul. The VAB tabs are annoying and cluttered. The auto-staging system is a total joke and more frustrating to use than anything. More staging than just a linear method... we were told emergency staging would be coming like 8 versions ago. A more usable click-friendly UI frontend for ship control that all plugins can use as a common interface - plugins are getting more and more desperate for keyboard space and having, for example, carts using the same buttons all the time as the RCS system is inelegant. A 'ship control' interface common to the game with buttons you can push that plugins can integrate with (instead of the mishmash of dozens of windows you get now) would be ideal, so the Lazor system could add a button to the panel to activate the system, the cart system could stick on a button to turn on the wheels, etc.

As for docking, I must be missing why it's becoming such a ridiculous task, seeing as how we had 0.16 plugins (until 0.17 broke it) that were basically functional.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Frostiken

[LaydeeDem]

Not really 0.18 but:

0.17.1 Revision Update

Hi again,

Now that 0.17 is out, we're noticing a few issues that were sneaky enough to get past the testing process, or that we here simply overlooked for some reason or another. Whatever the case, we are going to release a 0.17.1 revision patch soon, and this here is our current changelog for it:

Bug Fixes and Tweaks:

* Fixed an issue with the terrain engine that resulted in invisible oceans.

* Fixed a small bug on the patched conics maths that could have caused some trouble.

* Fixed the terrain collision detection issues for Gilly and Bop.

* More to come...

As you can see, this list is far from complete. We'll be adding things to it as they get added to the game.

Apart from game fixes, this patch release is also meant to be a field test of sorts of the new server structure we're working on. We're doing all we can to make sure the server stays up during release days, and this release will be a good opportunity to test if our solutions are working.

As with all other releases, there is no set timeframe for this one. All we know is that it shouldn't take as long as a major update, but really, even that is still a should.

Cheers!

0.17.1! I can finally go to Gilly! Good luck bug squashing devs!

[Deek of Rocketry]

I think the primary things I want for this update would be as follows (These are taken from the planned features list)

Mission Control Room : Create flight plans and take on missions and challenges

Docking

Asteroid Belt

Re-Entry Heat and Effects

And another thing I hope they add would be multiple launch sites\space centres to launch from. It would be neat if you could land a part at a certain place, and then that area becomes a launch facility. It would give bases on other bodies a practical use. It would also be neat to manage your space missions from a body and place other than Kerbin and the KSC.

So, dare I say, having a slight building sim feel?

[RadiatorArray]

G-force effects (Kerbals pass out and you temporarily lose control / die beyond a certain positive and negative G-force)

G-Force effects would be so awesome.

[iamaphazael]

As for docking, I must be missing why it's becoming such a ridiculous task, seeing as how we had 0.16 plugins (until 0.17 broke it) that were basically functional.

Well, you just mentioned one of the big reasons right there. Sure they could hack together something that would work, but then further on down the road they could add a feature or change something that would make the hack no longer work, or would require serious re-working of code they'd already written, which would make things take longer to put out than they should. That's exactly why they are tackling IVA first: because a lot of what goes into the final implementation of docking is going to depend on what the implementation of features like IVA look like. They're waiting to do docking because they want to do it once, and do it RIGHT. If everyone stopped whining about it, it would make things a lot more pleasant for everyone.

[jmcdaniel0]

I think that after 17.1, we need to have just some simple house keeping. Keep in mind, we are still in alpha, and are a long long way from any time of release version. I say work on fixing errors, getting the program itself to working as intended with as few as possible bugs ( It is not possible to fix all) once we have a .18 that is cleaned up, with all of the known issues fixed, then 19 can be looked at with some more content being brought in...

With all new content comes issues, so there would likely be a 19.1, and then 20.0 can be house keeping, then 21 can be new content.

The problem that a lot of people do not understand that game development is not easy, as it looks. Every time new content is added the number of bug goes up exponentially. The more content, the more complex the game gets, which mean sand boxed wont work forever.

There are a lot more pressing issues than just Docking.

I say Clean up what we have before we make it an even bigger mess by adding more to it.

I know I am new around here, but that just seems like the logical step for me.

[Thiel]

I'd like a lander command pod so I can land in IVA

[lickstaph]

You mean to say that Squad is NOT implementing docking for 0.18? Seriously?

After the months of waiting after the 0.15 update? Wow, just.... wow...