Scifi Tropes Versus Crew

[Spacescifi]

4 hours ago, magnemoe said:

I agree, now Titanic had an extra large crew because the passengers, cruise ships today has an large crew for the same reasons.
The same will be true for an spaceship unless you had the passengers hibernating who is plausible, plenty of mammals does this. 
An science mission or an warship will also have an larger crew than an freighter as their purpose is not only to go from A to B.

Obviously spaceships will be much more automated than ships but airplanes are not an good example as aircraft's require lots of maintenance but its done between flights. This is not an option for an long duration torch ship but yes it will be standard for an orbital shuttle.

 

I reckon much of that crew would be life support maintenance and waste water treatment.

Somehow I really doubt it wise to leave poo management systems up to idiotic AI when poo levels are more random than rocket engine firings... also likely to need more regular maintenence.

 

Unless you are literally just chucking a trail of excrement asteroids behind you instead of recycling it LOL. That is the cheapest, easiest but pollutive way to go LOL.

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Spacescifi

[KSK]

A couple of thoughts.

1.   Holding tanks are a thing and they would deal with unpredictable inputs.

2.  Unless there’s a pressing need to reduce spacecraft mass in-flight, any solid waste could simply be stored.  A spacecraft is a closed system so (roughly speaking) the quantity of food you bring for the journey is going to be  processed into an equivalent mass of waste by journey’s end.  Wasteroids not required.

3.  At a very basic level, solid waste processing need not be terribly complicated. In principle that is - the details are always more complicated in practice and I agree that crew will almost certainly be needed for repairs and maintenance.

Step 1.  Vacuum dry the waste (finding a suitable high quality vacuum shouldn’t be hard aboard a spacecraft) to a) deodorise it, b) sterilise it and c) recover its water content as far as possible.  I’m unsure about the water reclamation but apparently modern space toilets do vacuum drying for the first two reasons.

Step 2.  Grey water goes into the spacecraft water recycling system.

Step 3. Dry matter can be stored. It won’t look  terribly appealing but it won’t smell too bad and it’ll be sterile.

The dry matter could be further processed depending on how fancy your spacecraft systems are and how much of a need there is for recycling.

One conceptually simple option is simply to incinerate it, which is something that NASA is already looking at. Main product from incineration is carbon dioxide which can then be absorbed by hydroponically grown algae or similar bioremediation system. 

 

Edit.  Apologies that last part was badly written. NASA is looking at incineration, the bit about the algae was my speculation.

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by KSK

[kerbiloid]

The classic combination "cesspool & yeast" could be used to expand the inflatable modules.

Or soft landing airbags, if the events happen quickly.
Say, a pack of yeast at the capsule bottom and parachute opening at last meters of altitude.

Edited October 27, 2021 by kerbiloid

[FleshJeb]

11 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Somehow I really doubt it wise to leave poo management systems up to idiotic AI

I hate to tell you this, but we already do this on Earth. Many municipal wastewater treatment plants are highly automated, even incorporating machine-learning to optimize various parameters in real time. In addition, they can self-detect sensor faults, and predict when various mechanical components are going to fail, so that they can be replaced before they become a problem.

It's actually more challenging than doing it on a spacecraft because the quality, quantity, and characteristics of the incoming wastewater are MUCH more variable in a municipal system.

I really don't understand how you can have such a persistent interest in futurology without also understanding the engineering mindset: Any problem can be solved--The only two limiting factors are physics and money.

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, FleshJeb said:

I hate to tell you this, but we already do this on Earth. Many municipal wastewater treatment plants are highly automated, even incorporating machine-learning to optimize various parameters in real time. In addition, they can self-detect sensor faults, and predict when various mechanical components are going to fail, so that they can be replaced before they become a problem.

It's actually more challenging than doing it on a spacecraft because the quality, quantity, and characteristics of the incoming wastewater are MUCH more variable in a municipal system.

I really don't understand how you can have such a persistent interest in futurology without also understanding the engineering mindset: Any problem can be solved--The only two limiting factors are physics and money.

 

What i meant was full AI management... literally hands off, not what we do today, which is using the machines as tools that we supervise and repair.

Allowing an artificial intelligence to make judgement calls without ANY human input is like surrendering our lives and free will to a machine and trusting that it won't malfunction one day.

Machines lack reasoning capacity, even less than a cat or dog. Therefore they will always need human input to do their best work for us.

Dogs and cats of their own volition have acted to save their owners lives no doubt countless times throughout history.

No machine in history can say that... since what they do is never of their own volition anyway.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Spacescifi

[KSK]

8 hours ago, FleshJeb said:

I hate to tell you this, but we already do this on Earth. Many municipal wastewater treatment plants are highly automated, even incorporating machine-learning to optimize various parameters in real time. In addition, they can self-detect sensor faults, and predict when various mechanical components are going to fail, so that they can be replaced before they become a problem.

It's actually more challenging than doing it on a spacecraft because the quality, quantity, and characteristics of the incoming wastewater are MUCH more variable in a municipal system.

I really don't understand how you can have such a persistent interest in futurology without also understanding the engineering mindset: Any problem can be solved--The only two limiting factors are physics and money.

 The bit that got me scratching my head was, "Somehow I really doubt it wise to leave poo management systems up to idiotic AI when poo levels are more random than rocket engine firings..."

I mean, I could understand being skeptical about our ability to build a fully automated waste management system, complete with automated replacement or repair of faulty or damaged components. Personally, I think that may be achievable, starting from the the kinds of system that you mentioned, and the question would be whether it would be more efficient to have a fully automated system, or to bring Joe (or Josephine - lets be equal opportunity here) the space plumber along to fix things. But I could understand the skepticism.

What I can't understand is dismissing an automated (or AI system) out of hand because it wouldn't be able to cope with random poo levels, when a moment's thought would tell you that:

a) a waste system which can't cope with said random levels is functionally useless - whether it's AI controlled or human controlled. We have waste systems that aren't functionally useless, therefore this most be a solvable problem;

b) that we could maybe use those existing systems as a starting point for figuring out how to deal with the same problem aboard a spacecraft;

c) that this is about the simplest part of the system to engineer anyway. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by KSK

[kerbiloid]

AI vs Random Wastes:

"Kill'em all with fire!"

Literally. To H2O, CO2, N2.

[Spacescifi]

 

You take system that is designed for only what it can predict, to be used by the unpredictable.... us.

 

Airplane vacuum toilets seem less likely to clog due to vacuum use instead of water.

 

Still...  I read online about a guy who had to fix a clogged airline sewage pipe.

 

Turned out when he cut the pipe open on the landed aircraft what did he find?

A baloon filled with cocaine!

 

Humans cam always throw a wrench into predictable systems.

Especially when we are talking... not professional crew... but passengers in space. Which are likely if manned space travel ever becomes fast enough in the future.

 

Granted,  it is possible to screen passeners who are very likely to act erratically, but the larger amount of people shipped, and the demand for money may and can make the possibilty of human passengers wrecking the plumbing system absolutely inevitable.

 

Which is why you need human input and not total AI overlordship over a waste management system.

 

Machines like predictablity, throw unpredictability at them and they fail even harder than humans when surprised.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

Give them drinks and no snacks.

[KSK]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

You take system that is designed for only what it can predict, to be used by the unpredictable.... us.

Airplane vacuum toilets seem less likely to clog due to vacuum use instead of water.

Still...  I read online about a guy who had to fix a clogged airline sewage pipe.

Turned out when he cut the pipe open on the landed aircraft what did he find?

A baloon filled with cocaine!

Humans cam always throw a wrench into predictable systems.

Especially when we are talking... not professional crew... but passengers in space. Which are likely if manned space travel ever becomes fast enough in the future.

Granted,  it is possible to screen passeners who are very likely to act erratically, but the larger amount of people shipped, and the demand for money may and can make the possibilty of human passengers wrecking the plumbing system absolutely inevitable.

Which is why you need human input and not total AI overlordship over a waste management system.

Machines like predictablity, throw unpredictability at them and they fail even harder than humans when surprised.

Well malicious damage is very easy to solve - you don't solve it.

As a starting point, macerators are a thing and would probably be quite helpful in a spacecraft toilet for chopping everything up and making it easier to move it around the system. Chopped up waste would also make vacuum drying quicker and more effective and, as mentioned previously, vacuum drying would be a sensible part of any spacecraft waste management system.

The treatment process now becomes:  chop - vacuum dry - incinerate - process resultant gases.

Any idiot dropping their cocaine stash down the toilet  has just presented the system with a slightly different source of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen.

As for any idiot that tries to flush anything that the macerator can't handle (whether through stupidity or malice) - well a jammed macerator triggers the lock on the toilet door. There is then a ship-wide announcement that the toilets are out of order due to a passenger caused blockage. The remaining passengers are kindly reminded that personal faecal containment garments and personal waste disposal bags can be found in their cabins. The door then unlocks, letting the idiot out. 

Nobody dies and everyone knows exactly who the plumbing wrecker was.

Naturally, this procedure is fully disclosed in the terms and conditions of travel, and is also put on a warning notice on the toilet door.

 

[Spacescifi]

34 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Give them drinks and no snacks.

 

Would have to ensure bowls were empty before flight though.

 

Won't stop people from stuffing cocaine balloons up the urine pipe though.

Whatcha gonna do next?

 

Go 1984 and put cameras inside bathrooms LOL?

7 minutes ago, KSK said:

Well malicious damage is very easy to solve - you don't solve it.

As a starting point, macerators are a thing and would probably be quite helpful in a spacecraft toilet for chopping everything up and making it easier to move it around the system. Chopped up waste would also make vacuum drying quicker and more effective and, as mentioned previously, vacuum drying would be a sensible part of any spacecraft waste management system.

The treatment process now becomes:  chop - vacuum dry - incinerate - process resultant gases.

Any idiot dropping their cocaine stash down the toilet  has just presented the system with a slightly different source of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen.

As for any idiot that tries to flush anything that the macerator can't handle (whether through stupidity or malice) - well a jammed macerator triggers the lock on the toilet door. There is then a ship-wide announcement that the toilets are out of order due to a passenger caused blockage. The remaining passengers are kindly reminded that personal faecal containment garments and personal waste disposal bags can be found in their cabins. The door then unlocks, letting the idiot out. 

Nobody dies and everyone knows exactly who the plumbing wrecker was.

Naturally, this procedure is fully disclosed in the terms and conditions of travel, and is also put on a warning notice on the toilet door.

 

 

Now you want me having such installed for public bathrooms that gangsters love to grafitti or where people put foolish sayings.

That could be built, would be expensive though, since you would have to cover most wall surfaces with pressure sensors before the door locked due to some vandal scrawling on the walls.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Spacescifi

[FleshJeb]

7 minutes ago, KSK said:

macerators are a thing

The single biggest killer of wastewater macerator pumps is textile material wrapped around the impeller shaft. This is colloquially known as "ragging", and is generally caused by baby wipes and tampons. This is why municipal-scale sewage pumping stations are typically built with duplex and triplex pumps, run in alternating cycles. I've been deep inside a failing pumping station where all three pumps were nearly burnt up. Pre-screening and maintenance is absolutely a must.

Vacuum toilets also have issues: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a31929628/uss-ford-toilet/

[kerbiloid]

55 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Go 1984 and put cameras inside bathrooms LOL?

It's a suggestion for a space bathroom thread.

[KSK]

In that case I stand informed. Thanks @FleshJeb