kerbiloid Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 8 minutes ago, tater said: So does a sheet of paper. The suit is thicker, and absorbs more quicker particles, turning them into gamma. The biological efficiency coefficient (rem/rad or Sv/Gy) of protons ~5, while of gamma ~1. https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Коэффициент_качества?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp So, the proton absorbtion itself decreases the dose 5 times. Edited September 14 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 7 minutes ago, kerbiloid said: The suit is thicker, and absorbs more quicker particles, turning them into gamma. Thicker than what? Another suit? https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20060046504/downloads/20060046504.pdf "Meeting radiation protection requirements during EVA is predominantly an operational issue with some potential considerations for temporary shelter. The issue of spacesuit shielding is mainly guided by the potential of accidental exposure when operational and temporary shelter considerations fail to maintain exposures within operational limits." Ie: the suit doesn't do much, get to shelter during an unexpected rad event. Later talks about water jackets, polyethylene fibers added, etc... some marginal improvements. Bottom line is that any new designs will incorporate this, and not need to cost a billion bucks a suit. or $100M, or even $10M. We need cheaper space suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 12 minutes ago, tater said: Thicker than what? Another suit? Than paper. Some protons are piercing even the space station hull, causing phosphenes. Several cm of the spacesuit absorb faster protons than the paper sheet does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 Suits aren't several cm thick. US suits are <0.5cm even with a cover. Bottom line is that if you want to avoid radiation exposure, get under a couple meters of regolith. On orbit? Slightly better inside the vehicle than out, and don't be outside during a solar event—get in the shelter areas of ISS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 26 minutes ago, tater said: Suits aren't several cm thick. US suits are <0.5cm even with a cover. Paper is by order of magnitude thinner. By two orders. Thus, the suit stops faster protons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDE Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 22 hours ago, darthgently said: What happened with the suit a woman was developing that use the constriction of the layers of the suit to maintain pressure rather than air? Need to find that out. She quit the NASA posting alongside the outgoing administration in 2017. There was another wave of publicity for the BioSuit in 2019-2020, and she got a supposedly lucrative but very vague MIT job that needed filling because... you have to read the article for it to be believed https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/22/mit-media-lab-names-dava-newman-as-new-director/ Edited September 14 by DDE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 A breathe mask, a glue spray, and the glue solvent. Put on the breathe mask, cover yourself with the glue, wait to let it get solid and elastic. You are suited. Get into the shower cabin, run the solvent shower to wash down the suit, run the water shower to wash down the remains of solvent. Something like the lovely polyvinyl acetate (PVA) glue in childhood, which is so pleasant to scratch off its white films from the skin. Btw, it's solvable by water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 6 hours ago, kerbiloid said: Paper is by order of magnitude thinner. By two orders. Thus, the suit stops faster protons. Any suit we're talking about does this. The point was that it might as well be paper in the grand scheme of things. Isotropic GCRs are always there, and GCRs (mostly protons and alphas) with the same energy as solar protons usually are not even considered, as the ave energy of a GCR is more like 1000 MeV, not 20-30. Which is what NASA was talking about above, you avoid radiation problems operationally by not doing EVAs during solar particle events since suits don't do much. Adding some H to the suit (water or polyethylene) to mitigate those accidental event exposures while they move inside is mostly for that contingency. If you go outside, your dose is going to be higher than inside by a lot, regardless of suit—lower by 2-3X just being inside the pressure vessel, and lower by 20X if you're in an "equipment room" in the paper (meaning areas with eqp covering the walls (most of ISS is like this)). An actual shelter 2 orders of mag or more better than a suit. Any new suit design will include similar, mild radiation protection as every other suit made because there's only so much you can do with a suit, which is nearly nothing—and they need to be cheaper. If we want to mitigate overall rad exposure, we need better shielding in spacecraft/habs. Perhaps dedicated, shielded sleep areas would be the best starting point on spacecraft, and piles of regolith (or bags of same) on the surface of the Moon or Mars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 Maybe a 1cm gel filled gap between layers crawling with tardigrades taking cosmic bullets for us. Not serious, just in case that isn’t clear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 47 minutes ago, tater said: and piles of regolith (or bags of same) on the surface of the Moon or Mars. Project Horizon was to be started from digging a trench for the living modules 3 m in diameter, and covering them with ~1 m of ground by the lunar bulldozer, so it's by definition. (Though, I would prefer a carport, with the ground lifted up, to adjust the modules properly without pressing them from above by hundreds of tons.) But there are activities when you have to spend hours outdoors, catching the protons omnidirectionally, and cooling/heating the boots from the ground. Also you have to evacuate the heat from the body, and thus have a cooling system with pipes and local radiator. Don't forget that there is no job on the Moon but mining (drill) or mining (explosives), it's a lot of hard and sweaty work. This makes any thin suits a questionable choice, only to walk between the modules. *** A lunar zorbosuit! Spoiler Edited September 14 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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