Kerbin - Mun fuel station mission. Establishing K.G.01 and K.G.02

[BechMeister]

@Streetwind Thank you for taking the time to write this long and thorough post - I really just wanted to give you a shout out x) 

I hope it's alright I also just make sure I got what you wrote right.

3 hours ago, Streetwind said:

In KSP1, that was because not all antennas could actually be used as a comms relay. There were "direct" antennas, which were light and frugal with power use, but could only talk to KSC. They could be bounced through a comms network, but they could never be part of one. There were also "relay" antennas, which had the same range but were heavier and required more power, and only those had the ability to act as relay stations in a comms network.

Alright what i hear you say is: In KSP 1 there were transmitters and receivers. In KSP2 we dont know which antenna is a transmitter or a receiver yet.

3 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Second point, antenna combinability. If you've read the relevant KSP1 wiki page, you may have seen that multiple antennas on the same vessel will add their strength together to increase the vessel's total comms range. Given the much higher ranges on antennas in KSP2, I'm not sure if you actually need to combine antennas for a Kerbin SoI commnet... but just in case this was something you were factoring in: the 16S, being an outlier, was the only kind of antenna that you couldn't combine. Ergo, having two of them on the satellite in the screenshot is just aesthetic, it doesn't actually improve the range

I did see it - But since I didn't know what kind of signal the different antennas sends in KSP2 - I didn't look to much into that part of it. 

On why I decided to use two antennas. It was actually because I suspected the body of the vehicle may block the signals? - Like you said, they dont give a lot of info, so I didn't know what "bandwidth" they were sending signals (which mean I didn't know how "resistant" the signal was to blocking bodies), or if they simulate that aspects of radio network. I just wanted to give the satelite a better chance to have Line of Sight to the next antenna if that makes sense? I also have multiple dishes on my station to make sure at least 1 would be pointing toward Kerbin, or the CommNet I was setting up x) 

I only went with the range number I had. As i recall, the antenna had 22-24? Mm range - and i figured that would be enough for me to be able to space them around Kerbin to circulate the signal from KSC around Kerbin - then i would make 4 satelites with a more powerful antenna and put them in a Tundra or Molniya orbit (if my skills allow me) to relay beyond Kerbin. That was my thought process at least. But I see now that i may have been deceived by a bug - as its not needed.

I guess i picked the 16s because it looked like a HF antenna, were the other looks like a VHF antenna - and out of the two HF seemed to be the better choice. - Full Disclaimer.. I used to be a HF radio operator in the Danish Army - So I have a limited need to know basics of antenna and signal theory. We mostly used an antenna type called "long wire" when doing recon, or the HF vehicle antenna - (Pardon if i say something you already know, I dont want to sound patronizing.) The long wire antenna was the one that required a bit of thinking. . But in reality it was just a long copper wire you hanged up in trees, bushes etc. and then you bounced your HF signals off the stratosphere (as i recall it) - we could cover a 500km radius with that, and we never needed more - so i never got to learn how to aim the antenna and shape it to our signal bandwidth to bounce signals across the globe. Our VHF and UHF radios all needed to have Line of Sight to work... Any way.. bit of a tangent, long story short. I guess this subconsciously informed my choices.

3 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Third point, antenna strength. Any comms network you deploy around Kerbin will remain almost completely unused. That is because vessels prefer connecting to the strongest antenna they can see. And the strongest antenna around, by a very large margin, are Kerbin's ground stations. They are gigantic, and can draw whatever power they want - so they are orders of magnitude more powerful than vessel-mounted antennas. Any vessel that can see Kerbin will connect directly to Kerbin, always, completely ignoring any and all commsats in Kerbin orbit.

The only time one of your commsats will be used is when a vessel cannot see Kerbin. Meaning, when it is in a Mun or Minmus orbit, and currently behind the moon, so it occludes Kerbin. As a result, what you really need is not a comms network around Kerbin, but rather one around the Mun, and one around Minmus. I mean... you can still build one around Kerbin anyway, for the challenge It just won't do anything.

Okay -  this is leading me to the bug I have been deceived by. I wanted the small satelites to be able to relay the signals from KSC around the globe so I didn't lose CommNet all the time. I assumed I lost connection because my rocket got out of line of sight to KSC - and since KSC was the only settlement i knew had ground stations, I just assumed it was because i was supposed to make a relay system around Kerbin to keep signal. - I turned off the requirement of a CommNet while i was figuring out the controls - now i felt i had sufficient skills to make an attempt at setting up the CommNet i presumed was missing.

If I understand you correctly Kerbin just have 360° Coms coverage stock - and it's only going to other bodies you'll need a CommNet to relay to the "dark sides"?

I guess that is the interesting part about KSP2 - it's hard to gauge if its a bug or a feature xD

3 hours ago, Streetwind said:

I recommend that you do a test run to see whether these assumptions carried over from KSP1 still hold water in KSP2. Specifically, you should test if your Communotron-16S equipped satellite can relay at all. To do this, put one in a high Mun orbit, and then have a vessel in a low Mun orbit where it will be cut off from connecting directly to Kerbin. See if it'll bounce through the satellite. Use an uncrewed craft for this, so the game will actually tell you when it loses connection.

The way i'll know if it works or not is if and when the vehicle loses connection on the "dark side" right? - I think it was also you who were so kind to answer my questions on my initial lead up to planning my CommNet - and there I was told there is no way in game right now to see if a satelite has a connection or not.

Or would you just suggest I dont bother with it until Coms is better integrated to the game?

Thank you for taking your time to inform me.

[Streetwind]

Since the commnet feature is not on any roadmap, it's hard to tell you to wait for it. We don't know when it'll get additional work done. It may take a long time, or it might not. It could be part of the science update. For the longest time, in KSP1, the only purpose of antennas was to transmit science results back home. Tying control to having a stable link back home came much later. And many of the antenna's stats, like bandwidth and power usage, remained only relevant to science transmission all the way to the end. But, again, it's not mentioned on the roadmap item for the science update.

...Come to think of it, I have no firm proof that Kerbin has 360° connectivity in KSP2 at the moment. I thought it did for sure, but then I remembered that I turned off commnet functionality in the difficulty options like two days after early access launch, because back then there was a bug where unmanned vehicles would lose connectivity and become dead in the water the moment the stage with the probe core in it became the active stage, even if you were right above KSC. And then I never turned it back on again. But this should be a really easy thing to test for. Just put a probe in LKO and see if it maintains connectivity across a full orbit.

(And yes, the only way to test for whether you're getting a connection or not right now is watching your probe lose control.)

Vessels do not occlude signals, only celestial bodies do.

The game doesn't model anything like different frequencies or the like, regardless of how the antenna looks. It's all just a binary "connected" or "not connected", based entirely on line of sight, in which vessels are ignored. KSP1 did however have a config setting where planets with atmospheres were treated as smaller than they actually are for purposes of signal occlusion, to simulate bouncing the signal around the curve of the planet via the atmosphere. Not sure if any such effect is present in KSP2.

 

1 hour ago, BechMeister said:

Alright what i hear you say is: In KSP 1 there were transmitters and receivers. In KSP2 we dont know which antenna is a transmitter or a receiver yet.

Even further than that - I don't know if KSP2 even has this distinction or not. Maybe someone else already tested it and can say for sure, but as I mentioned I've turned commnet off.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Streetwind

[BechMeister]

Alright - Thanks a lot for your insight @Streetwind - tbh I have not had come link on since the the first build of the game either. But I did not know it was a bug - I just assumed it was a difficulty/realism thing. I will try the different things out. I will make a few test satelites with Communotron 16, 16-s and HG5 All have a range of 200Mm which should be more than enough for the Mun and back to KSC.

I assume the straight antennas does not simulate the "donut" direction they send the signals - or the beam the dish antenna sends their signals either then?

And again, thank you for your insight. - might have saved me a lot of trouble
  

[Streetwind]

Yes, all antennas are omnidirectional at all times, regardless of vessel orientation or model shape.

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:19 PM, BechMeister said:

but i've been wondering how you get them to space? just a standard over the top KSP rocket?

Missed this. So yeah, I've had great success with a simple XL first stage with the most powerful single nozzle engine, don't remember the name and am without my PC at the moment. 

Two XL tanks, the biggest and then the next-to biggest on top, XL engine plate and then said engine on the bottom, and two largest solid rocket fuel boosters on either side. It has fins in an "X" to avoid colliding with the boosters in the back, and Vernon RCS thrusters that runs on methalox for manouvering. This thing can basically SSTO a second stage of almost 100 tonnes I think (will check this next week). And the TWR hits the sweet spot that if you manage your launch profile during ascent perfectly, you can circularize your orbit in one single burn from launch before decoupling the second stage.  yum. 

So the tanks are pretty ok to launch when full. Docking? Not so much. You should be able to create a craft with this as its fuel tank and a simple command hub, and go a lot of places in the solar system. Or maybe just launch the tank, engine and maybe a reaction module, and launch a second command module and dock it to tank module. I might do this later.

I tried launching two. My ginourmous payload wobbled a bit, but it made it suborbital. But problems arose when decoupling... the Kraken had taken a hold of my build. Thankfully it didn't fester all of my craft and the save file, so building a new payload from the ground up and launching twice in stead of once with the aforementioned first stage worked great! Then I realized I wanted to redesing the monoprop tank assembly, the tank assembly and the truss.... 4 more launches incoming lol. 

I'll provide pictures and maybe a craft file of my first stage if you want it when I am able to next week. Speaking of craft files....

On 5/5/2023 at 11:19 PM, BechMeister said:

Ps. I have been contemplating uploading the vehicle files to this blog - now that stage 1 is complete. Would that be of interest at all? 

Y E S.   K.G.01 looks GREAT and I want to launch it. Saw the fuel lines in the pictures you mentioned as well. They look AWESOME. 

17 hours ago, BechMeister said:

Probably better for my sanity just to have 160t - when ever K.G02 is bellow 50% i do 42 sorties 80t moved.

Ok, my lazy ass spasms whenever read about your proposed 42 launches  

I adore your endeavour to land all your tankers. I'd might try to land some stages of my crew launches (obviously, don't want Jeb, Val and Bill to smear my beautiful KSC runways), but yes. The tankers? Imma joink those big bad hydrogen balls to orbit, rendezvous and then just yeet them into the atmosphere. Might try landing the second stage and then the first stage at some point. 

I might try to make a shuttle and have that recrew the station, bring old crew back and so on, but yes. I admire your perseverance! 

18 hours ago, BechMeister said:

50t hydrogen. Shez. Maybe its a bit overkill?

Nope. As mentioned, too lazy.  Not gonna refuel that boy in like forever. 100 tonnes on my station and am happy.

[BechMeister]

@Sylvi Fisthaug I finished my design for K.G.02 yesterday evening. Here is a sneak peak:


View from bellow. As you can see I opted for 8 - 20t hydrogen tanks instead of the big spherical - Also keep the design language intact from station to station. And I can reuse a lot of fuel tanks. I think I have come to the conclusion that i will make a tanker module for the Tug Boat to push fuel from K.G.01 to K.G.02 - But there is a lot of unknowns as of yet. I made sure to design it so it was easier to expand upon than K.G.01

View from above - I am suspecting once Radiators will be introduced ill build a screen to shield the tanks, with solar panels on top - I just filled it with
XL solar panels to get a feel for the look I wanted. 4 docking ports for a yet-to-be-designed escape system. And 4 ports for crew docking. One long port 
for refueling crafts.
 

It will hold: 

- 160t Hydrogen - 200% of K.G.01 Capacity 
- 64t Methalox - 200% of K.G.01 Capacity

Meaning the station just need to be fueled every time its bellow 50% - I reduced the Monopropellant a lot from K.G.02 to 01 - I vastly overestimated how much monopropellant you need - Now I just hope they madly optimize the game.. because this big boy is as of now 605 parts xD - But.. I cannot not go for aesthetics..


I also made my test satelites and prepared my satelite carrier to launch them:



The 6 combinations I figured I would need to test what antenna does what. Its all the 200Mm antennas in the game atm. 




And here they are all ready in the vehicle bay.  We will see how the kraken likes them.. some of the antennas clip into the floor plates of the craft etc. The HG5 are a bit too big.  Also because my game would crash when ever i combined the 2nd stage and 1st stage when using decouplers to separate the satelites from the carrier..  I've opted for micro docking ports.. lets see how the Kraken likes that.

Next Mission will be to test CommNet - and weather I will keep it off until better implemented - or turn it on

Edited May 7, 2023 by BechMeister
had some weird sentences I had not edited propper

[BechMeister]

//////////MISSION UPDATE\\\\\\\\\\
- Testing antennas and their limits -

Satelite Carrier deploying test satelites around the Mun.

Mission Tasks:

A. Get Satelite Carrier into orbit - Dock with K.G.01 and Refuel. - Success.
B. Get Satelite Carrier into a Mun Orbit. - Success.
C. Test CommNet satelite types: - Failure.
D. Test satelite deployment system for Kraken attacks - Success
E. Return to Kerbin from Mun and land craft: - Success.

Lessons Learned; Lessons Identified:

A. The Satelite Carrier has a lot more Δv than the other Gliders - How much I do not know, it was clear that it showed the wrong Δv, So I will have to do the rocket equation to figure out. The craft successfully got to orbit, no issues.


Stage Seperation and Stage 1 burning back towards KSC.

Satelite Carrier opening the cargo doors to allow the solar panels on the CommNet satelites to recharge - For some reason the ION engines uses power even when not on? So I was quickly running out of battery. - Solution was to turn them off.

And Satelite Carrier docked at K.G.01 for refueling, to get the required Δv to get to the Mun and back again. 

My docking was super hard because the SAS bugged out. For some reason it did not want to lock orientation, but forced me to use an arbitrary direction. I only had control over my pitch, yaw and roll when turning SAS off - and docking with RCS only is quite the tango.

B. 

Carrier enroute to the Mun.

I have not been to the Mun since very early in the game. It was quite easy to get back there, comparing to when i had less than 30h ingame. Carrier arrived at Mun no incidents.

C. Test of the CommNet and Satelites was a failure - Initial test showed that I had connection to KSC 360° around Kerbin. But it also showed that I had connection with KSC on the "Dark side" of the Mun:

Satelite Carrier pointing towards K.G.01 as target through the Mun - Showing that CommNet connectivity was not obstructed by the Mun.

I think the developers resolved the CommNet bug of the first build by disabling it completely - Since I could not get my craft to lose connection, I could not test the antennas.

D. I decided to test the launching system for Krakken - and the satelites since it was first time I've used the ION engine. 

Satelite Carrier deploying all satelites at once for maximum Krakken bait - the beast did not show up.

As you can see on the picture, Using the Micro Docking port to launch the vehicles did not yield any Issues at all. No total failure of the vehicle.


Satelite testing Ion Engine

The satelites how ever - were bit embarrassing. I know how an Ion engine works in theory... So It should not have come as any surprise that it needs a lot of energy. The craft had 10k Δv - but it could only burn a few seconds. I either need to drastically increase solar power - add batteries or both for them to really work.

E. I had just enough fuel to return to Kerbin, and bend my orbit through the upper atmosphere. By performing a heavy break through the upper atmosphere - I managed to break the vehicle from 3600 m/s down to levels that could re-enter... I wonder though, what the craft would have said to re-enter at 3600 m/s if heat had been in xD


Carrier Pitching 90° to break.

Carrier performing turns to slow without bouncing off the atmosphere because of lift from the wings.

Carrier on final approach.

Landing.

Although the craft "successfully" landed.. It was an insanely hard landing. I am surprised it made it in one piece. I had to allow all control surfaces to pitch to get the nose up - and the vehicle belly flopped with 38-40 m/s - Before using again more lift has to be made from the wings. - It may be an error in wing tilt. That being said the crafts terminal velocity is very "low" - 75 -80 m/s pitching 90° down. So being very draggy and slow definitely kills its ability to land propper. 

- But I believe I've been told the cargo bay are very draggy by default - so it may be that? I'll tinker around with it - next time i need to deploy small satelite sized crafts. Which wont be before a patch/feature makes it relevant.

Conclusion:

"Mission Success" - If I cant lose connection now - there is no reason to make a CommNet - Which mean ill steam head on with making K.G.02 

Stay Tuned for More!.

Edited May 17, 2023 by BechMeister

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

5 hours ago, BechMeister said:

Carrier performing turns to slow without bouncing off the atmosphere because of lift from the wings.

What's interesting is that you do this just about excactly the same way as NASA did this with the Space Shuttle. 
Might be you watched this video as well, but for me this is the best explanation of how they did it. 

 

[BechMeister]

@Sylvi Fisthaug - I absolutely adore that video, and yeah saw that a long time ago x) - how ever. I only realized how hard they actually bank left and right when I saw Scott Manleys video on the Columbia disaster... Even though it is shown in the video you posted, that they bank like 90° with a 40° AoA - Seeing a 3d model do it, made me realize how hard they bank. 

You can also do the same/have to do the same in a small space game called Flight of Nova. - Its quite fun how you can extend, shorten turn your approach depending on your angle of attack and bank. I guess that's why i preferer the glider over the Falcon-9 approach. The fact I can correct really big margins of error is nice...

I can even land the craft even with to little Δv if i can get it to pass through the upper atmosphere. With the satellite glider I did not have enough Δv to to get a sub orbital path by burning retrograde, but by burning radial in, i could "twist" my orbit enough that i got through the atmosphere... And I was lucky KSC was lined up perfectly. Then the decent profile was all about banking, and gliding x). 

but of the 3 gliders I'd say the satellite launch glider needs some work on the wings. even if the real space shuttle was a flying brick. This craft take it to the extreme... I don't know what the undercarriage was made of.. but the fact it didn't just bend back was a true testament to Kerbal engineering xD

The other two vehicles glide "fine" - still need to managed your speed/energy, and you only have one chance of flaring up (just like the shuttle) - The space plane and emergency glider glides a lot better. there you don't have to dive to the airstrip and pull hard in the end x) But yeah.. I like gliders.
 

What a shame Venture Star never became a thing. I would have liked to have seen that.

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

@BechMeister 

How do you fly them though? Do you have a joystick or do you just use your keyboard?

[BechMeister]

I do have a joystick, but.. I've never bothered to try use it with KSP2 - It just doesn't seem the game is optimized for it. So I just use WASDQE to control the pitch, roll and jaw on the way down. If the vehicle is well balanced its manageable - My emergency gliders are the one that are the most balanced of all my gliders - you don't need to use that much control input to keep them on track. They stay in the orientation I leave them in, which is great  

If you want, I can send you the file for that and you can fiddle around with it and get a feel for it? - But As this threat also shows. 90% of my game time was spend finding the spot were mass and drag is proper balanced so I can control them on the way down... and they still have enough lift to be able to land x)

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

On 5/8/2023 at 1:31 PM, BechMeister said:

If you want, I can send you the file for that and you can fiddle around with it and get a feel for it?

I would love to! 

I am in the process of writing my first post about my stations. I will @ you in it! 

[BechMeister]

//////////MISSION UPDATE\\\\\\\\\\
- Building K.G.02 Superstructure -

First Module for the K.G.02 station en route to LKO.

 

It has begun - I started sending up the superstructure of K.G.02. and first time in 200h of playtime i return to the Mun. Muns low gravity aswel as the low orbit speed makes me do quite a lot of maneuver node errors. How ever, it is nice that all errors can be corrected with a few burst of RCS thrusters. I Thought I had finished putting up the super structure, but alas.. I found out on the last inspection that the Kraken haunting the VAB had decided to strike me... More on that at the end of the update.

Mission Goals:

A. Get the 5 parts of the superstructure into orbit around the Mun - Success
B. Assemble the station. - Success
C. Inspect for unsuspected construction bugs - Failure.

Lessons Learned; Lessons Identified:

A. I had a "fun" realization. I was setting up the rendezvous orbits the way I would around Kerbin. The fact a orbit took the time it took for the parts to run though orbits to line up made me send up multiple stages at the same time - I could handle 2 stages in rendezvous orbits and K.G.02 needing to be rendezvous with as seen here:


Multiple stages in Rendezvous with first stage of K.G.02 - The blue square.

In one of the rendezvous, when i finaly lined up and checked my speeds I realized there was only 10 m/s difference between stage and target speed... So i quickly found out I could save some time by just using main engine to burn. - A lot less effective, but requiring a lot less patient. The mun is very forgiving with speed margines... Guess I should have known.

B. This will pretty much just be a slide show of the setup of the station:


First part leaving LKO towards the Mun - you may notice the error that has caused a minor setback on the image. One of the medium docking ports is assembled at an angle.

Stage released - The 2nd stage would then proceed to be parked in a Kerbol Orbit - similar to the 3rd stages of the apollo missions.

Second module going into LKO - the main living module for passengers and crew passing through the station. Waving the First stage good bye on its way back to KSC

Rendezvous with K.G.02 first module.

Next was the more cumbersome structure for the Hydrogen fuel assembly and solar panels. - I do like the colour scheme though.

Enroute to the Mun. This would be send up in 2 pieces - and it was the second time these modules had to be send up... as the engineers had decided to cut a medium docking port off when putting it on the rocket, ready for launch. I feel i have quite a bit of VAB errors with docking ports twisting and or going missing.

Here is the module being assembled. Notice the little new tug drone I designed for the K.G.02 - The little fellah's seemed a bit troublesome to move to and from K.G.01 to K.G.02 - so I decided to make a smaller one that would be easier for the, now big, Tug drone to carry with it back and forth to install fuel tanks for transportation.

Here is a close up of the little fellah. I think I've found the 4 directional RCS thruster to work better with 3 as symmetry rather than 4.

Second arm being installed.

Although not perfect aligned, its close enough. The white stribe really helped align the two bits propper. - I may still re-alignt the left one once i get the new middle section up... this time with out building bugs.

C. 

A close up of the bugged docking port.

I thought I had just completed getting the main structure up, when i realized a docking port had shifted on the very first module. checking the parts for alignment. It is what it is.. its part of the "charm" playing KSP2 early access. But with 8 docking ports its quite easy to miss a single one off. - One last launch with the current second stage. Luckily with the two small tug drones and their medium docking ports + the second stage medium docking port I will have all the vehicles necessary to remove the broken stage, and replace it with a new one... sending yet another failed stage to a parking orbit around Kerbol.

It should have been 5 launches... It will be 8 because of VAB errors.

Moving Foward:

Next post will be once I've figured out a 2nd stage that will be able to efficient move the odd bits to the Mun - The station has 17 small odd small cylenders and 9 adaptors from medium to small docking ports that will connect to them, before the empty fuel tanks can be moved to K.G.02. And I have yet to design the vehicle that will bring the 17 bits... as I will break my neck if I get the bits up 1 by 1.

Luckily the small tug drones are there, and they will be able to get into a large cargo bay and grab objects - so I have plans.

Any way - Stay Tuned for more! 

Edited May 17, 2023 by BechMeister

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

So nice to see a building montage! 

2 hours ago, BechMeister said:

A close up of the bugged docking port.

Oh God yes this happened to me as well. To medium ports are misalligned, and a small port on my monopropellant tank is floating in mid-vacuum like 1 metre from the assembly itself. 

2 hours ago, BechMeister said:

... as I will break my neck if I get the bits up 1 by 1.

Ah yes the weight of all the launches is starten to burden you. I was there WAY before, without testing all those gliders! Sheez

[BechMeister]

/////////////////////MISSION UPDATE\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


The replacement module enroute to The Mun.

Mission Tasks:

A. Get new Methalox-Module into Mun orbit and Rendezvous with K.G02 - Success
B. Separate living quarters from the bad Methalox-Module on K.G.02 and dock it with new Methalox-module. - Success
C. Separate the bad Methalox-Module from K.G02's Hydrogen-superstructure and catch it with the 2nd stage. - Success
D. Burn second stage and bad Methalox-module to a parking orbit around Kerbol - Success
E. Dock Hydrogen superstructure with the Methalox superstructure and crew compartment. - Success.

Lessons Learned; Lessons Identified:

B.

Left to right: 1. Hydrogen Superstructure connected with bad Methalox-module. 2. Living quarters. 3. Secund Stage with New Methalox-Module.

New Methalox-Module docked to living quarters and 2nd stage preparing to next stage of operation = Catching the bad Methalox-Module.

C.

Because the bad Methalox-Module did not have a drone computer for maneuvering and or RCS thrusters, It meant that the second stage had to "catch" it once releazed. Luckily the undock was smoth, and the module traveled in a straight line (no tumbling) at 0.7m/s - I have experienced crafts start tumbling after undocking. Luckily this didnt happen... otherwise it would have become a difficult operation.


Bad Methalox-module undocked from the Hydrogen superstructure and drifting past the 2nd stage, ready to turn 180° and connect with the medium docking port.

And here - re-aligned and on docking course with the "dead in the water" module.

D. 
In the beginning I would de-orbit the 2nd stage back to Kerbin and let it crash into the planet. But it only required ~68Δv to park them in a Kerbol orbit, outside Kerbins sphere of influence.. and if that is good enough for NASA in the 60'ies and 70'ies its good enough for me right now.


Here you can see the path going out of Kerbins sphere of influence, and into a kerbol orbit. a long with 2 other stages already outside - One will probably come back to Kerbin at one point, since its path intersect with minimus. 

E.

Because the otherwise "dead" (No drone to control it) superstructure was docked with two small tug drones, and it was pretty much in the correct orientation. It was really just a question of getting the local prograde on target and wait. Pretty smooth operation.


Hydrogen Super structure aimed to the medium docking port of the Methalox-Module - Notice the two tug drones at each end of the pole. They ment for really easy control of a otherwise long heavy stick. As i recall 8-9t Far heavier than one should think. Considering its about the same the Living quarter + Methalox-module weight on K.G.02

And here we see K.G.02 Superstructure assembled with functioning parts.

Moving Forward:

Now its all about creating a launch vehicle for all the small adaptors, poles and connecters that will become the docking assembly for crafts, and methalox tanks. 
I have an idea of putting a cargo bay section on 2nd stage, and fill it with what is needed. As well as extra monopropellant to refill the small tug drones - to be sure they dont run out as K.G.02 does not hold a lot of Monopropellant as the Monopropellant tanks have not been installed. 

Or I will install the 3 monopropellant tanks on top the super structure first, making sure the tug drones have the fuel necessary. - In any case, I will spend some time in the VAB making the new 2nd stage for bringing up the odd bits. 

Stay Tuned for More!

P.S. If you think my posts are getting too picture saturated leave a comment. - If not i'll just continue the style as it is now.

Edited May 12, 2023 by BechMeister
text setup shifted

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

1 hour ago, BechMeister said:

In the beginning I would de-orbit the 2nd stage back to Kerbin and let it crash into the planet. But it only required ~68Δv to park them in a Kerbol orbit, outside Kerbins sphere of influence.. and if that is good enough for NASA in the 60'ies and 70'ies its good enough for me right now.

I am so sorry but just crashing your trash and rubbish into the Mun will cost you less than 100 Δv 

1 hour ago, BechMeister said:

And here we see K.G.02 Superstructure assembled with functioning parts.

The methalox module with the looks awesome - I love how you are playing with the color schemes here. I might do that aswell if I'm going to make a small station around Minmus! 

Took me a while as well to figure out how you built it, lol

1 hour ago, BechMeister said:

P.S. If you think my posts are getting too picture saturated leave a comment. - If not i'll just continue the style as it is now.

I don't think so! I'm currently playing around with the format of my "blog", but I have really enjoyed your style so far. Especially with "lessons learned" and so on. Like @Kerbalsaurus said earlier, in your posts it does look like you think like an engineer. 

[BechMeister]

12 hours ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

I am so sorry but just crashing your trash and rubbish into the Mun will cost you less than 100 Δv 

Hah - yeah, call me a hippie.  I cant litter the moon.. I dont know where my future colony is going to be.. not to mention the possible plumes that would throw material into the air x)

I know space agencies has crashed stages into the moon to create seismic activity to get an idea of composition.. but yeah. Felt wrong - much better to just liter the vacuum of space xD

12 hours ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

I'm going to make a small station around Minmus

- station around Minimus? I have yet to find out how to get to that. But i guess a future mission there would make sense.  I know pretty easy how to get to the Mun now. I think i have theorized how to get the assembly for the methalox tanks to the station. It will be in two launches. And then maybe 1-2 launches for the docking ports for other crafts. Then its just the fuel tanks and solar panels. - my biggest problem is i lack a medium docking port - but I've decided to install the monoproppellant tanks as next step. Which mean a big tug drone will be at K.G02 - and that has a medium docking port

 

12 hours ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

Took me a while as well to figure out how you built it, lol

I build the quote on quote "super structure" for Hydrogen tanks in 2 pieces - my rocket could carry 4 ton comfortable, 6t if i did sacrefice the first stage.. but the structure was 8t. So i split it in two and put my little drones on the stacks. But besides that the main tower is 3 bits - methalox-module - living module and the docking module. I did not want to do the 45° offset by the two sets of dockingport in space, so I flew them up assembled xD

But yeah. 2 launches to get the monoproppelant tanks up, 2 launches to get the methalox assembly up, ~2 launches to get the docking assembly up.  And then it will be 8 LKO  launches to get the methalox tanks to K.G01 - and then 4 tugs from Kerbin to the Mun.

Then its 8 empty tanks for Hydrogen - and then ill test the proceedures for a refueling. Yeah there will be a few hours entertainment here... and then Minimus.. and i guess then its time to see the rest of the solar system

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

15 hours ago, BechMeister said:

Hah - yeah, call me a hippie.  I cant litter the moon.. I dont know where my future colony is going to be.. not to mention the possible plumes that would throw material into the air x)

HAHA you treat the moon like Nasa treats Europa, Callisto and Ganymede 

15 hours ago, BechMeister said:

- station around Minimus? I have yet to find out how to get to that.

YES it's hard. But setting it as target and matching the inclination, you should be able to get there. What's nice about Minmus is that gravity is so low it requires next to no fuel manouvering around, and getting back to Kerbin will cost you 50 - 100 Δv 

15 hours ago, BechMeister said:

and then Minimus.. and i guess then its time to see the rest of the solar system

I love how you have played for 200 hours, and have not been to Minmus or Duna yet. "I went to the Mun, ok, let us build two immense space stations then"

[BechMeister]

On 5/14/2023 at 2:01 AM, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

HAHA you treat the moon like Nasa treats Europa, Callisto and Ganymede 

Yeah... I decided you were right. Now im crashing them into the Mun north-pole or south-pole
 

On 5/14/2023 at 2:01 AM, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

YES it's hard. But setting it as target and matching the inclination, you should be able to get there. What's nice about Minmus is that gravity is so low it requires next to no fuel manouvering around, and getting back to Kerbin will cost you 50 - 100 Δv 

I mean.. you can do orbital maneuvers around the Mun with only RCS thrusters - My first moon lander that left the Mun only had Δv to get 30km above the surface.. and i Circulized the orbit with RCS only xD - Took a while.. but it could be done. Made it easier to pick it up later x) - But i gather Minimus has a lot less gravity.
 

On 5/14/2023 at 2:01 AM, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

I love how you have played for 200 hours, and have not been to Minmus or Duna yet. "I went to the Mun, ok, let us build two immense space stations then"

Yeah - but... Once its done, I can just make a big Hermes-style(the martian), ISV-style(avatar) or The Endurance-style(interstellar) ship that can visit the bodies of Kerbol.. and should have for a few missions too x) - But yeah... clocking 290h and I've never left Kerbins sphere of influence xD
 

//////////////////////Mission Update\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
 

K.G.02 superstructure complete - With the 3 Monopropellant tanks installed, and a big Tug Drone ready for assisting assembly of the Methalox Assembly.

Mission Tasks:
A. Get 2 Monopropellant tanks to K.G.02
B. Test the new tug drone size small handling of heavy cargo - and install the tanks on the respective arms
C. Get a Monopropellant tank to LKO and Rendezvous with K.G.01
D. Do hand-over take-over from second stage to Heavy Tug drone
E. Move drone and cargo to K.G.02 - Install tank, and wait to further assist in the construction of K.G.02

Lessons Learned; Lessons Identified:

A. 
I found out that the 10 ton weight of my Monopropellant tank designs from K.G.01 is the absolute maximum that the 1st stage and 2nd stage can push into orbit, and reliable get to The Mun. - which is good. I was contemplating sending the tanks up empty.. and then fill them. But monopropellant is a poodle to get to space, So I am very happy it work out. How ever it demands that the 1st stage uses all its Δv - meaning its destructive.


First Monopropellant tank arriving at K.G.02

B.
I was a bit worried that the smaller tug drones would have issues with the cargo - its a smaller reaction wheel and less thrusters etc. The Monopropellant tanks are the heaviest they are going to move about - 10 + tons, where the Methalox tanks are only 8t. 

I have found though, that I may need to make a costume action group to reduce the thrusters - maybe all the way down to 25% when they move without a load. It can be very difficult to aim them as they over boost a lot.


Small Tug drone performing Hand-over  Take-over of the cargo. - Finally aligned to the medium port.

Once attached to the cargo - they are really easy to move around. This may also be to the fact that the thrusters on the tank is well placed in accordance to the center of mass for both crafts (I am not sure though, as i have never checked center of mass and thrusters placement in the VAB)

The rest of the images has been moved to a spoiler section as its quite extensive:

Spoiler

Here Tug drone is ferrying the cargo to its final resting place.

Hand-over Take-over from 2nd stage to small tug drone - Notice that the Large Tug drone and "3rd" monoproppelan tank is already there. Even though the 3rd tank was send up last, had to do a rendezvous with K.G.01 in LKO it still arrived first because of a better arrival window with The Mun and K.G02 than the 2nd tank had. Which had to do a couple of rounds around The Mun to get a good rendezvous.

And here the second tank is being installed. The alignment of the tanks is not important as they are symmetrical. but the white strib still made for easy alignment.

C. 
If stage seperation happens so 1st stage has the Δv margin necessary to return to KSC - there is only just enough Umpff to get 10t cargo into LKO - Rendezvous with K.G.01 and get into a suborbital path.

D.

2nd stage enroute to K.G01 with cargo.

This part of the mission was a more interesting part as it gave a possibility to soft test the Tug Drone and moving fuel from K.G.01 to K.G.02.
Since I would need a drone with medium port capabilities at K.G.02 for making future assembly easier. I decided to send the last monopropellant tank into LKO and have the Tug Drone move it to K.G.02 - This way a 1st stage didn't have to be sacrificed either.

The hand-over take-over would be done as follows:

1. 2nd stage would rendezvous with K.G.01
2. Medium Tug drone would perform hand-over take-over with 2nd stage Small docking port to small docking port.
3. 2nd stage would decouple the cargo and go into a suborbital path.
4. Medium tug drone would do hand-over take-over with Large Tug Drone - Medium port to Medium port.

I had two issues: 1 visit from the Krakken were while doing 3x speed on the coasting phase of the large Tug drone and cargo, they clipped into each other and resulted in an explosion and a much more sinister bug where the large tug drone would not turn on its engine. I found a solution and it can be found here:

Since the picture slide show for this part is quite extensive, I have decided to put it into a spoiler section:
 

Spoiler

Medium Tug drone enroute to hand-over take-over with 2nd stage - Notice the shadow from K.G01 cast on the drone (the games graphic, even on low never seizes to amaze me)

Same motive - but from a different angle. I really like the deep sea submarine look of the drone with those big lights. (here turned on for my own amusement - since they are not needed with full daylight)

Hand-over take-over perfromed  and 2nd stage is going into a sub-orbital path with the remaining Δv.

Large Tug Drone enroute to Hand-over Take-over.

Final adjustments.

And contact.

Once the engine problem had been resolved, and the medium tug drone safely docked with K.G.01 again, it was time to see the Δv score for the Tug Drone with 10+ T cargo.


1.700Δv - Not bad. I suspect that the Tug Drone will be ferrying 2 fuel canisters of either Methalox or Hydrogen to and from K.G.01 to K.G.02. Both fuel tanks are holding 16t fuel together So there should be plenty of Δv to get to The Mun at least - hopefully there will be enough for a "tour-retour" as it will make it less of a inconvenience when refuel K.G.02

E.

This part went fairly smooth - No issues. Except one - my save file had grown to 500mb because of the duplication error, causing my game to crash every time i docked the small drone to the fuel tank of the large drone at K.G.02.

I went into my save file with WordPad and deleted all the text from, before the line, "ObjectEvents" and down again. Bumping it down to 15mb. No crafts were lost. Its 2nd time I've had to do this. Now my loading times are a lot smoother again.

I have decided to move the images of this procedure into spoiler again, as its quite extensive:

Spoiler

Tug drone enroute to The Mun - Leaving Kerbins shadow

And here, with Kerbol as target to keep the batteries well charged on the coasting towards The Mun.

Here the Heavy Tug drone arrives at K.G.02 - Notice that the 2nd monopropellant tank has yet to be installed - It was still in a rendezvous orbit around the Mun and would link up with K.G.02 in a few hours after the Large Tug Drone and the "3rd" monopropellant tank would be installed.

Hand-over take-over of the last monopropellant tank complete

Installation complete. I decided to move the large tug drone down at the button to balance the aesthetic 

 

Moving Forward:

Next step is to move the Methalox docking assembly (2 launches) and docking ports for service vehicles and refueling. (1-2 launches)

The 2nd stage necessary for this has already been developed and are ready now that the necessary Tug drones and fuel is present for installing the bits.  

Stay Tuned for More.

Edited May 17, 2023 by BechMeister

[BechMeister]

//////////////////////Mission Update\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Prototype Second stage en-route to K.G02 with the Methalox Storage Assembly.

Mission Task:

A. Bring prototype stage to K.G.02
B. Install unpack the docking port adaptors and store them at K.G.02 until methalox docking assembly has been installed.
C. Use small tug drone and large tug drone to install docking port adaptors
D. De-orbit the second stage and crash it into The Mun. 

Lessons Learned; Lessons Identified:

A.

Second stage at K.G.02

I managed to design a 2nd stage that could bring half the assembly into orbit - It is quite heavy though, so just as the monopropellant tanks, it has to use all 1st stage Δv to get to a Mun orbit. So again, destructive use of the reusable 1st stage.

Here is the 2nd stage open - Full and Empty, I assembled 2x2 short and long adaptors and connected them to a center docking port. Around that I could store the 4 connectors to the main Methalox Assembly.

2nd stage seen here open: Full and Empty. 

Second Stage Full. - and second stage empty.

B. 


4 docking port adaptors being stored while the assembly is being *badum-tsh* assembled.

C.

Here are the 4 adaptors installed in the propper orientation - the red markers helped with alignment.

I suspected the instillation of the 4 rods would be the hard part. They had to be propper aligned for the future assembly to be possible and 2/4 of the connector rods demanded careful navigation of the small tug drone - More on that in the picture walk through of the assembly. 

How ever, I would soon find out that this part of the operation would be pretty smooth and that it would be the installation of the docking adaptors that was hard. There was only just room for the big Tug drone between superstructure and the Methalox assembly.

It took an entire evening to do - but i did find a way to improve the procedure - So hopefully the second half of the assembly will go smoother. The 2nd stage prototype was well developed and been adapted. No further improvements needed.

I have decided to mark the walkthrough of the entire assembly as spoiler as its quite extensive:

Edited May 17, 2023 by BechMeister
Accidently posted too early, fidling with the font hotkeys.

[BechMeister]

Spoiler

Here the small Tug Drone is moving the docking adaptors to temporarily store them while the 4 connector struts are installed.

Since the adaptors does not have their own RCS thrusters, it meant navigation had to be done extra careful.

With the adaptors gone, it was possible for the small drone to go pick up the connectors - as you can see there was not a lot of room for error.

First arm successfully installed.

Here second arm is being picked up, the lights gives a good indicator of how tight this is - I had a few undocking not undocking errors.. but no fatal Kraken attacks so all good. - The rest of the Arms were easy enough to take.

Second arm installed - here the construction of the assembly is really visible - and the reason for having a long and short adaptor to cancel out the hight difference.

Last connector to go.

and here, the entire assembly ready for the adaptors

The small drones would disconnect the adaptors and do a hand-over take-over with the medium drone. Which then could proceed to install the adaptor to the connector arm. A operation that was a lot harder than I first anticipated it would be. - at least here alignment of the red stribe was only for aesthetic reasons... so I was less precise here.

All adaptors installed and ready.

The adaptors seen from bellow.

And lastely - the only screenshot i took showing how close the drone got to the superstructure - I had to concentrate, so didnt take as many pictures x)

D.

Second stage closing up, preparing for de-orbit and crashing into the mun.
 

Last thing to do was to de-orbit the second stage. - Ops success. We'll see when I have time to send up the second half.

Stay Tuned for more!

 

//////////MISSION UPDATE\\\\\\\\\\
- A conversation about Inclination and going to Minimus -

Edited May 17, 2023 by BechMeister

[fulgur]

For reaching Minmus, you have 2 options.

In low Kerbin orbit, you set Minmus as the target and the "ascending" and "descending nodes" will pop up. That shows the points on your orbit where the plane of your orbit crosses the plane of Minmus' orbit.

Option 1 is to match inclination in Low Kerbin Orbit. This takes around 300ms^-1 in addition to the transfer. You manoeuvre at the ascending or descending node. At the ascending node, you are moving from below the orbit of Minmus to above the orbit of Minmus, and you will want to burn downwards (anti-normal). At the descending node you will want to burn normal to your orbit. You should set up your manoeuvre so that after the manoeuvre, your projected inclination is less than 0.1deg. You can then make a transfer, just the same as you would when heading to the Mun.

Option 2 is not to match inclination at all. At the ascending or descending node, set up a manoeuvre which just crosses the orbit of Minmus. Because your periapsis is at one node, your apoapsis will be at the other node, and so you will be crossing the plane of Minmus' orbit at the height of Minmus' orbit. Then use the buttons in the tool to move the manoeuvre forwards in time, 1 orbit at a time until you get a Minmus encounter (you might need a little bit of tweaking).

Option 1 uses more dV than option 2, but option 2 gets you into a more inclined orbit of Minmus. However, it is cheaper to manoeuvre in the low gravity of Minmus than it is in the high gravity of Kerbin.

[BechMeister]

2 hours ago, fulgur said:

"ascending" and "descending nodes" will pop up. That shows the points on your orbit where the plane of your orbit crosses the plane of Minmus' orbit.

Is the ascending/descending nodes the 1A and 1B marks? 

Also does Minimus have a none-circular orbit? - I am not sure I fully understand the advantages of being in a more inclined orbit. Would it be possible for you to show screenshots of what you mean?

[fulgur]

The Ascending and Descending nodes are labelled AN and DN.

Don't have KSP open right now but I do have some magic gel pens.

Spoiler

An orbit is a conic section (circle, ellipse, parabola or hyperbola). Conic sections have eccentricity, which describes how circular they are (lower eccentricity is more circular),

Orbits also have inclination. Inclination is the angle between the orbit and the equator. Above are 3 perfectly circular orbits with different inclinations.

Here is a picture of the Kerbin system. You can see that the plane of Minmus' orbit crosses the plane of the Mun's orbit, which I have marked as the ascending and descending nodes (assuming your ship is at Minmus). If you wanted to transfer from Minmus to the Mun, or vice versa, you could do so cheaply at either of the two nodes that I have highlighted.

Here is a picture of you at your apoapsis, not hitting Minmus because it is inclined.

Option 1: your inclination matches the inclination of Minmus. You can do a regular transfer like you would to the Mun, and you will hit Minmus without being above or below it. This is because you have made a "plane change" manoeuvre, and your orbit is in the same plane as the orbit of Minmus.

Option 2: you do not make a plane change. If you burn at the ascending or descending node, then your apoapsis will be at the opposite node. Your apoapsis will just touch Minmus' orbit, because the two lines will intersect at your apoapsis, because your apoapsis is at either your ascending or descending node. However, you have to time this carefully so that you hit Minmus, rather than an area of space that Minmus was in several weeks ago.

 

[BechMeister]

Thanks @fulgur It made it a lot more helpful. I had not noticed that Minimus orbit was at an different inclination (tbh, i never looked a lot at Minimus because i was busy building infrastructure to make my life easier later) 

And don't worry, your drawings were fine enough that I understand. Also you have a neat handwriting - I much appreciate the effort! Unfortunately i can not give you more than one like  

But it makes sense. I can tell you that neither of my stations are at a 0° inclination to the body they orbit. Also I don't think i've ever managed to get anything into orbit that was at a 0° inclination. I always fight the drag in KSP2. It makes it hard to fly straight, always have to balance the gravity turn, SAS wobble and drag to avoid the rocket doing flips or flying sideways like Starship. So I always have to correct inclination.

It feels to me though, that doing inclination changes around The Mun, is far cheaper than doing it around Kerbin? I mean I some times fix my inclination with RCS thrusters if I'm running low on Δv.

I guess that also explains when you say that option 1 uses more Δv than 2 - but I gather you can do option 1 any time, and option 2 you need to time the window with which the body intersects the path.

- Thank you for the thorough explanation with illustrations  (having multiple colors were especial nice)