Kethane Pack 0.9.2 - New cinematic trailer! - 1.0 compatibility update

[Pontiac]

First, ENJOY YOUR VACATION Majiir. The time off is great, first off, second, I can actually start playing with the new toys you've put in.

I've read from post 1118 to here to see if anyone else has commented on this issue. I JUST downloaded 6.1 and installed/extracted. I have a positioning issue with the electric converter. The problem is that where my mouse cursor is versus where the converter should sit. The converter is way off center from where the mounting point should be.

The cursor is near the edge of the orange tank, but the converter isn't sitting on the node.

It centers properly off on its own. The orange tank rim is at the bottom of this image.

Another shot with the off-centeredness.

This one is just plain old weird.

I thought the issue might be due to just overwriting the Kethane directory, so before posting this, I delete the GameData/Kethane directory (Actually moved it to my desktop just in case) then re-extracted, same effect on my old ship. Then decided to try a brand new ship with just an orange tank and a command module. Same effect. Fixing this is above my pay grade, as I have NO idea where the decision is made for mount points.

I should also mention that the nodes don't snap together when trying to attach this to something, but, the on other side, the small kethane scanner does snap in place.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Pontiac

[HoY]

Are you trying to stack mount it on the green node? If so change your camera angle to view the tank from the side then move the green node on the generator down till they touch. It will snap the nodes together. All objects that both stack mount and radially mount behave like this

[Pigbear]

what is this "KSP tv"?

I want to see the geodesic part.

[astropapi1]

what is this "KSP tv"?

A group that does live streams lead by Squad on TwitchTV. last night there was a stream in which the Kethane mod was showcased and we could see that Majiir is working on. An awesome Hexmap!

[Climberfx]

Man, it's showing impossible to extract kethane from Laythe. first the Kethane is showing on water places, Second, i can't land on water to extract...

After all the effort to build a STAR Galaxy MjK Ship!

Edited June 22, 2013 by Climberfx

[HoY]

Look back a couple paged Climber, look at Kaos's posts about deep sea drilling rigs

[Mechrior]

i think my post got swallowed, is there any way to make the detectors map window bigger please?!

[HoY]

Not yet, but read the past 2-3 pages and you'll see that there's a new map coming in 0.7

[Pontiac]

Are you trying to stack mount it on the green node? If so change your camera angle to view the tank from the side then move the green node on the generator down till they touch. It will snap the nodes together. All objects that both stack mount and radially mount behave like this

It worked if I aimed the camera along the horizon, twisted the generator in some odd fashion. Eventually it did manage to get it on and snapped into place, but 5 minutes of this kind of work, not to mention the gut wrenching annoyance levels I was feeling, just to put an attachment on shouldn't be this hard. I can't think of another component that is off set like this, and I have to manage camera angles to get it to work.

Needless to say, its attached, I'm happy for this particular config, but don't look forward to the next time I need to do this.

@Majiir, how does this thing balance itself out? What "window" does it keep the electrical balance at? I was going to say about 75%, but I noticed it was dipping at times closer to 60%. Can I ask though that these generators try and always put a +0.1% of juice into the system? Anything less than 100% in the electrical makes me nervous even if it is holding steady.

[KhaosCorp]

Almost everything that has surface and node attach behaves like this....angle your looking at things has always played a big role in building.

And the generator operates like it does to keep from burning kethane it does not need to.

[Climberfx]

Look back a couple paged Climber, look at Kaos's posts about deep sea drilling rigs

Thank's for the tip Roy! I will find it!

[HoY]

The generator seems to power up and keep your battery storage from dipping below 75%, and if it spikes lower than that the generators will power up higher to recharge them to around 75-80% capacity before they lower down again. I only actually noticed this when I was driving a test rover from the runway to the launch pad trying to get KAS to pipe LFO.

[Majiir]

I didn't have any issues with the generator, but my method of attaching parts is always to view the craft from the side so I can plop the part straight down. I'll play with it when I'm back. I suspect it's not fixable by anyone except Keptin, at least not without some fancy plugin voodoo. In his defense, the generator is still an in-development part; it's missing an animation and presumably the centering is all part of testing that would happen before he gives the final certification. It did have two of its animations working and looked damn gorgeous to boot, so I released it anyway.

@Majiir, how does this thing balance itself out? What "window" does it keep the electrical balance at? I was going to say about 75%, but I noticed it was dipping at times closer to 60%. Can I ask though that these generators try and always put a +0.1% of juice into the system? Anything less than 100% in the electrical makes me nervous even if it is holding steady.

The generator has a few different mechanics.

First, a demand ratio is computed from the current percentage of ElectricCharge using a logistic curve. The function looks like this. The X axis is the current level of ElectricCharge and the Y axis is the demand ratio. There will only be demand if it comes out to 10% or higher, so the generator won't try to run above about 85% capacity. By the time you're at 40-50% capacity, it's trying to run at full speed.

I say trying because the demand doesn't directly translate into power output. The demand is used to consume Kethane, and each frame, the demand is multiplied by the ratio of Kethane we were able to draw. (This just accounts for situations when we're running out of fuel.) The resulting value is fed into a 3-second moving average. Waste XenonGas is produced immediately after Kethane is consumed.

Simultaneously, the moving average is sampled to give the output ratio. This is used to produce the actual electricity and scale the exhaust effect.

The intake fan has its own 1-second moving average. The input to this average is this function of atmospheric pressure. The result of the average animates the fan and reduces the quantity of Kethane required. (It doesn't affect output, though, so it's an efficiency mechanism only.) The value of the average is multiplied by the current atmospheric pressure to figure the actual efficiency gain, which gives this function under constant pressure conditions.

There are a couple things I could do to make it feel a bit better. I could replace the demand controller with a PID, but that would introduce another source of latency; or I could make the demand function scale off something other than total battery capacity. (Instead, it could scale off something like fifteen seconds worth of full power output.)

[HoY]

Thank's for the tip Roy! I will find it!

In short he uses some boat parts from the R3 pack and a modified KAS winch to lower the drills to the sea floor over a kethane deposit. From what he said his biggest holdup is how long it takes to sink the drills down that deep for the deepest ones.

[Kenobi McCormick]

I could replace the demand controller with a PID, but that would introduce another source of latency

The latency seems just fine to me. A real-world genset like this takes a few moments to spool up anyway assuming a torquey piston engine of some sort. I'm assuming due to its shape and the fact that for the life of me I cannot even come close to maxing one out on a reasonable rover that the generator is a gas turbine engine, which would take forever to spool up without a load...and mine's a quarter the size and output it was originally!

I could see up to a second of lag time between demand and peak output as being quite applicable, and in even my most demanding rovers I can't drain a decent battery that fast so I don't see it causing most players any issues. I'm betting most people would be using these on rovers, and as a rule you need a few batteries on those for the wheels to function properly anyway since wheels hate drawing directly from a generator for some reason.

I've also noticed something else: The generator does not seem to get hot. This I find a bit odd...I'm assuming it's burning the kethane to produce the electricity yet I cannot get one to overheat even if I overload it with a horde of kethane drills. I'm assuming that is because the genset is still WIP and not complete, aye?

[Majiir]

Latency is intended, even; that's what the moving average is for (that and smoothing). Adding a PID controller would add latency on the consumption side as well, but I could tune it to have a pretty quick response. At the very least, I think it should ignore total battery capacity and instead set throttle based on how much energy has been drained relative to peak output.

I've also noticed something else: The generator does not seem to get hot. This I find a bit odd...I'm assuming it's burning the kethane to produce the electricity yet I cannot get one to overheat even if I overload it with a horde of kethane drills. I'm assuming that is because the genset is still WIP and not complete, aye?

I hadn't even thought to make the generator create heat. Its exhaust is hot, but I'm not sure the generator needs a heat mechanic; since you can't throttle it manually, it would be obnoxious for the thing to blow up on you just because you dock with a discharged battery.

It also may not be burning the Kethane completely; it could be working like a fuel cell for much of the energy and burning some of the products. It definitely puts out heat, but it's not going to heat up like the turbine.

I'll take a look at all this at some point along with the mass and reaction stats. I'd like the generator to be competitive with solar panels when running at high load for relatively short periods of time. I think it's already competitive with RTGs; it's much more compact and even including fuel requires a lot less mass for certain loads.

[HGGundamReviews]

Just kinda want to show off my Keth mining rig. Ground based and assembled using Docking Port Sr.'s

[Kenobi McCormick]

it would be obnoxious for the thing to blow up on you just because you dock with a discharged battery.

I agree. I'm thinking it should take a 200% or higher, constant, overload to get it to overheat at all, and 300%+ to actually explode it.

It should be possible but highly unlikely under normal use, basically.

[Gaius]

I agree. I'm thinking it should take a 200% or higher, constant, overload to get it to overheat at all, and 300%+ to actually explode it.

It should be possible but highly unlikely under normal use, basically.

Does the generator actually deliver 300% power under those circumstances? If you ask it to deliver more power than it should, and it does, then yes, it should overheat. If you ask it to deliver power for more drills than it should and instead of doing so, it just delivers its rated maximum power and no more, it should not overheat either. It should only overheat at >100% capacity if it's actually doing >100% work, or where's the extra heat coming from? It's not actually doing any more work, despite your demands, so...

Basically, if the amount of power it delivers is dependent on the number of drills you connect, then yes, it should overheat if you connect too many. But if the amount of power it delivers caps out, and does not increase when you turn on more drills, it shouldn't burn any hotter when you do, it ain't doing any more work regardless of how many drills you try to split the insufficient power between...

Edited June 23, 2013 by Gaius

[Arrowstar]

I'll be developing live. Since I'll be working with particles, it'll be a lot more interesting than just staring at code.

Nice, I look forward to watching!

[Pigbear]

I want to see the Geodesic map. Can I get a picture?

[HoY]

Fat chance!

Here's a shot. I missed the stream because the twitch iOS app SUCKS

[Climberfx]

Twitch app don't suck's, it never work.

[KhaosCorp]

Did someone order some Kethane storage?

[XbasmanX]

It sounds like you may have installed Kethane in the wrong location. You should copy the GameData folder directly into the KSP root directory and allow the folders to merge. Upload your output log if reinstalling the mod doesn't solve the issue.

Where do you find the output log?

P.S. My Kethane is is installed correctly.