Specialist290 Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Say, that's something the devs should model in KSP! Fluid dynamics! I can already hear my laptop's CPU sobbing at the thought.Speaking of water, though, it's really good at blocking radiation. Depending on the state of Laythe's plate tectonics, (i.e. if there are any "hotspots" near the surface of the crust like the ones Yellowstone and Iceland sit on top of) perhaps you could build an underwater base next to a geothermal vent and actually have a really cozy setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntristan12 Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Actually, a thick atmosphere would stop most of the radiation before reaching surface. Magnetic field or not. It would give, however, the moon the most spectacular and permanent aurorae ever. If it has got oxygen - nitrogen atmosphere, there would be a perpetual haze of nitrogen oxides high up created by the impacting radiation, which would produce a nice greenhouse effect keeping the moon much warmer than it would be w/o it and helping it to sustain liquid water.The energy of all those particles has to go *somewhere*. Even if it doesn't all reach the ground, it would still deposit energy into the atmosphere. If Laythe has a weak or no magnetic field, that is a lot of energy deposited over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brotoro Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 The energy of all those particles has to go *somewhere*. Even if it doesn't all reach the ground, it would still deposit energy into the atmosphere. If Laythe has a weak or no magnetic field, that is a lot of energy deposited over time.I think you are overestimating the total amount of energy in planetary radiation belts. What makes the radiation in the belts dangerous is that the individual particles have very high energies (so they can cause damage to the important molecules in your cells and transistors), NOT because there is very much total energy deposited. Radiation belts aren't going to warm you up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalculusWarrior Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 The energy of all those particles has to go *somewhere*. Even if it doesn't all reach the ground, it would still deposit energy into the atmosphere. If Laythe has a weak or no magnetic field, that is a lot of energy deposited over time.Maybe that's what keeping the moon warm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalculusWarrior Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 The energy of all those particles has to go *somewhere*. Even if it doesn't all reach the ground, it would still deposit energy into the atmosphere. If Laythe has a weak or no magnetic field, that is a lot of energy deposited over time.Maybe that's what keeping the moon warm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnemoe Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 This thread may want to be merged with a pre-exiting thread.http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/28451-Could-Laythe-actually-exist-with-real-physics?p=349863#post349863But to quote Nova in that threadSome factors for Laythe, tidal forces in the Jupiter system is mostly through interaction with other moons. Vall and Tylo would generate force on it. Laythe is almost as large as Kerbin so it would have its own magnet field, add that the tidal forces would keep more of the core molten, this would protect against Jool magnet field. Add that life would mostly be in the ocean and if it's liquid water why should it not be life?Temperature readings 200 km inside Jool is almost 1000 degree, so it wold get lots of energy from Jool. Yes you would probably need an thick atmosphere like venus to make it posible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llamatoes Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 Possibly, but if Laythe is tidally locked, I'm pretty sure a bloody great moon can stop most of the radiation, so if you built your base. The far side, would you still be alright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brotoro Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Possibly, but if Laythe is tidally locked, I'm pretty sure a bloody great moon can stop most of the radiation, so if you built your base. The far side, would you still be alright?The radiation (if it exists) is not coming from Jool, so you couldn't get away from it by cowering on the backside of Laythe. The radiation in planetary radiation belts comes from high-energy particles (mostly from the sun, but also from cosmic rays) that get trapped in the planet's magnetic field. The particles wander back and forth along the field lines, spiraling along, getting reflected back in the opposite direction when they hit the point where the field gets too strong. So it will be coming at you from all sorts of directions...they aren't beamed out from the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llamatoes Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 So, shield your colony parts like it was going out of style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractal_UK Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Laythe almost certainly has to be habitable. We know it has oxygen in the atmosphere and in quantities that are at least comparable to the amount found on Kerbin. Oxygen is way too reactive to persist in an atmosphere for long periods without something to refresh its presence, i.e. life. So, either there is already life on Laythe or something very weird has happened that has released all of that oxygen into the atmosphere very recently. The life explanation seems more likely to me.Primitive life is likely to be more radiation tolerant than a complex being like a Kerbal is but even so, I suspect that the tidal heating generated by the gas giant and the orbital resonances with the other moons could easily lead to the generation of a strong enough magnetic field to protect Kerbals living on the surface.That is one reason I'm putting so much effort into huge colonisation efforts of Laythe at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahlzun Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 (edited) Or the oceans or Laythe are water based, and the radiation is stripping the oxygen from the water in a admittedly pretty cool water cycle.Laythe may not be habitable to the level that Chobit envisaged, it would be the easiest place to colonise simple because of the oxygen atmosphere.Assuming the Kerbals need to breathe and drink, an external supply of oxygen drastically cuts down the required complexity of life support.Also, the cosmic radiation is unlikely to be much less on any other planet, Laythe's atmo would provide some protection: but you'd still need shielding. Edited May 12, 2013 by kahlzun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specialist290 Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 So, shield your colony parts like it was going out of style.Or just put the colony underground, or underwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tada Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 (edited) Well, I´ll ad radiation shielding to requirements for my colony building.But I think, that Kerbals are much more radiation resistant than we think Edited May 12, 2013 by Tada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastaman Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 The level of radiation in the Jool system is unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EleSigma Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 I remember from somewhere (I think it might have been Nova IIRC?) that Laythe will have, when weather is going to be put in, a very stormy, windy, turbulent atmosphere. Also I would imagine that there is a bit of volcanic activity due to its relation and distance from Jool plus it has landmass which on a geologically dead planet would not exist as the water would have eroded it all away. Since there is air on Laythe there has to be some sort of microscopic life. I imagine Laythe is like Earth around the time of the "Great Oxygenation Event" I assume it is stuck in this state due to the possible radiation from Jool and the sun's weakness at that far out in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatzimaus Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The level of radiation in the Jool system is unknown.No, it isn't. Gas giants work through very simple physical principles, and their composition tends to be very uniform (if only because they're so large that simple statistics averages it all out). Any gas giant of that size will have an intense magnetic field, which'd trap the various types of energy, and this'd make Laythe uninhabitable to anything more complex than a fungus. The radiation level would be more than an order of magnitude less than Chernobyl's core, but it'd be EVERYWHERE. The atmosphere wouldn't do much to stop it, because the magnetic field of Jool would completely overpower that of Laythe. Life wouldn't function well under those conditions. Yes, with enough shielding you could survive anywhere. But "surviving" isn't the same as "habitable". Living in an underwater base on Laythe would be survivable, but what'd be the point? You might as well just live in a spaceship outside the radiation belts and commute to Laythe as needed. A surface settlement wouldn't be habitable, even if you spent all your time outside in a space suit.But that's just radiation. There's also questions of temperature and chemical composition. Laythe would get radiative heat from Jool, and tidal stress heating from its orbit, but it's unlikely that'd be enough. Europa's oceans are thought to be extremely salty to keep from freezing at that distance, and even they're covered in a layer of ice. (Although one theory is that they're not liquid at all, and the lower layer is simply a type of solid ice that can flow a bit. There's something like a dozen different structures of water that get called "ice", and they behave very differently.) And finally, chemical composition; even if the temperature is right, and the atmosphere's pressure is sufficient to not kill you, there are a LOT of chemicals that would be dangerous in even small concentrations. Some are corrosive/reactive with the materials we'd use (or us), but there are a lot that are less obviouslyAlso I would imagine that there is a bit of volcanic activity due to its relation and distance from Jool plus it has landmass which on a geologically dead planet would not exist as the water would have eroded it all away.It's easily possible that the dinky little landmasses we see ARE the result of erosion. But more importantly, most gas giant moons are tidally locked, and Laythe is no different. A tidal lock means little rotation, which means no large circulation of water. You wouldn't have large ocean currents like we have on Earth, or a jet stream to do the same with wind. You'd have large-scale wind movement due to the flow of heat, but that's not the same thing, so it's not unreasonable to still have landmasses without geologic activity forcing the creation of new continents.As for volcanic activity in general, there are some reasons why it's likely (tidal stresses from Jool keeping the core of Laythe molten) and reasons why it's not (most moons don't have the right combination of composition and temperature). The fact that Laythe clearly doesn't have any visible volcanos, though, kinda settles this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brotoro Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 No, it isn't. Gas giants work through very simple physical principles, and their composition tends to be very uniform (if only because they're so large that simple statistics averages it all out). Any gas giant of that size will have an intense magnetic field...You have a lot of data on gas planets with a radius of 6,000 km (smaller than Earth)? I sure don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotius Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Guys - chill out, and accept the fact that physic in KSP is different than ours. Mass and gravitation are different. Atmosphere behaves in different way. Kerbals don't die on the day side of Moho, even without any sort of protection except basic spacesuit. They can spend five years in tiny, little capsule without any health related problems. It's a game If devs decide to program life on Laythe they will do it, without deliberating about radiation, amount of sunlight etc. Heck, we don't even know for sure if there will be Laythe in full game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaydeeDem Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 No. For the reasons gathered from several of Nova Sillisko's posts.Laythe's oceans remain above freezing because they are a water/ammonia mix. Lowering the freezing temp.They plan to add radiation science to ksp. Lay the will happen to sit right in the middle of one of Jool's radiation belts.Laythe is incredibly volcanic from the same tidal forces that heat its oceans. It's like a melted Europa mixed with Io.Sources:http://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/1aqwqw/artwork_if_you_havent_seen_the_postcards_from/c9042mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tada Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Well, our colony would need radiation shielding... Nothing we cannot handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jedi Master Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 They plan to add radiation science to ksp. Lay the will happen to sit right in the middle of one of Jool's radiation belts.NO. Laythe, Moho, unreachable, due to radiation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibb31 Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 If NovaSilsko has stated that he doesn't intend Laythe to be habitable, then it pretty much won't be. Which pretty much puts an end to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tada Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Since when is health of Kerbals a concern? I want my Laythe colony even if it would cost lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tw1 Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 (edited) What about super sunscreen? SPF 5000+Maybe not habitable, but visitable at least. I hope that ships will be shielded from radiation, and that it's more of a concern when you leave a kerbal out for more than say, 30 min.If it's not even barely habitable, then it will be a "so close, yet so far" moment for Kerbals looking for a proper home away from home. Edited May 13, 2013 by Tw1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tada Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I think, that Kerbals can handle even extreme radiation doses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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