Laythe Is Physically Impossible

[IcarusBen]

I see the system as a place where all the laws that govern our solar system apply, including tidal heating and star formation, etc. etc. I suppose that it could be a unique place with it's own rules and physics.

[Kerbface]

Snip

As interesting a hypothetical as having a core full of superdense material is, I don't see how it really makes sense anyway. How would such a system form that was roughly equally full of the stuff? Would it not have any effect on the formation of the planets, the shape of the gravitational field, etc., nor the internal workings of any of the planets?

I think it's much easier to chalk it up to "it represents a realistically sized and composed system" but each to their own.

And with communication, even if they were to require all ships to have communication dishes for you to keep track of them, what happens if you don't put one on? Your Kerbals all dissapear from your sight forever and you have to find them with another ship? Or what if they go out of range and then you change to another ship? Do you have to wait until they come back within range? Or do you allow the ship to still be accessed while out of range even though this essentially means the kerbals on the out of range ship would be able to have knowledge of the actions of the other ships?

Edited May 16, 2013 by Kerbface

[Specialist290]

I think what Holo is trying to talk about is the concept of "Space Compression."

(Warning: TV Tropes. May ruin your life.)

[architeuthis]

Thanks for the great posts everyone. I realize Laythe is a work in progress, but as it is now I don't think tidal heating adequately accounts for the high surface temperature. While it's true that that Laythe's semi-major axis is very small for a moon of it's size, it also has an orbital eccentricy of exactly zero (as going by the wiki anyway), hence no tidal heating. Tidal heating results from internal elastic friction due to changes in 'tidal bulge'. In Laythes case the tidal bulge never changes thus no heating. On the other hand, it is in an orbital resonance with Tylo and Vall, so perhaps the eccentricy is zero for convience but we are assuming to be non-zero in actuality? Also it is relatively low mass so it will have a lower angular momentum, which is also a factor in tidal effects. High surface temperatures might be more easily explained through radioactive decay or, depending on how strong Jool's magnetic field is, magnetic induction. My two cents:)

If there is ice at the poles, I wonder does this rule out hydrocarbon oceans? Or perhaps surface water stratified from the hydrocarbons and by eons of gradual diffusion collected at the poles?

Edited May 16, 2013 by architeuthis

[Brotoro]

Because of the interaction with the other moons (if the moons actually interacted, which they don't in KSP), the orbital eccentricity would not remain zero, but would oscillate around. We apparently are amazing lucky to have caught it at a time when it has exactly zero eccentricity

Decay of radioactive elements inside Laythe could also be producing heat, yes, but moons tend to get icier and have less heavy element content the farther away from the sun they are. But since we do not know the age of the Kerbol system, it's hard to say how much of its initial supply of radioactive elements are still there. Also, the Kerbol system may have started out with an unusually high content of radioactive elements when it formed (if it was lucky to have been seeded by multiple close supernovae). The fact that the developers apparently want Eve to have lots of radioactive elements would tend to indicate that the Kerbol system in general is fairly rich in radioactive elements and heavy elements. And if the Kerbals evolved in such a system, they probably have better biological systems for handling the repair of whatever kind of molecules their cells use to encode genetic information and the removal of damaged molecules. If so, the little green buggers might be quite happy at higher background radiation levels than we are used to.

[Holo]

I think what Holo is trying to talk about is the concept of "Space Compression."

(Warning: TV Tropes. May ruin your life.)

Yep, that one.

Also, thanks a lot, you just killed the rest of my free time for the day.

[architeuthis]

Give me the quark matter or neutronium or pion condensate or whatever you or the theoretical physicist of choice want to call it...

It's funny given the typical densities of the celestial bodies of the Kerbol system, one wonders were the Kerbals are getting all of the light-weight rocket building materials from.

[Xellith]

That was mostly a design decision, to give some easier places to land since they're completely flat.

Dont give us any easymodes when it comes to planets! If a planet is hard to land on then it is hard to land on. Its all part of the fun and gives you the sense of achievement when you successfully do it.

[Brotoro]

It's funny given the typical densities of the celestial bodies of the Kerbol system, one wonders were the Kerbals are getting all of the light-weight rocket building materials from.

You only need the really dense stuff in the cores of the planets. The majority of the outer parts can be all the normal elements we know and love. ...You know...like propelium, and oxium, and blutonium, and hexium, and novasiliskoium.

[Navyguy]

Does anyone realise that the scale of the Solar System is downsized. Thus Laythe has hotter tempature than it would have in the first place. Also the Oxygen may come from Sea Algae they produce Oxygen.Also the wiki said the atmosphere contains Oxygen,not is pure oxygen. Also life thats on Earth adapted to Earth. Maybe it's the same on Laythe.

[Krenneman]

If you look t the water on laythe it is a different color than the water on earth the water on laythe is proberly mixed with amonmia that lowers the freezing point for water to about -100 celsius. There Also exists lakes of liquid methane on the moon of saturn called titan there is also geysers of liquid water with ammonia. The liquid oceans on laythe is not impossible but the temperature would at least be below -50 degrees

[Holo]

If you look t the water on laythe it is a different color than the water on earth the water on laythe is proberly mixed with amonmia that lowers the freezing point for water to about -100 celsius. There Also exists lakes of liquid methane on the moon of saturn called titan there is also geysers of liquid water with ammonia. The liquid oceans on laythe is not impossible but the temperature would at least be below -50 degrees

Laythe's surface is about 5 degrees C*, so there's no worries about it being too cold for liquid water there.

*Source: In-game Kerbal Knowledge Base

[Panzerbeard]

Entirely unrelated, I know, but:

have a snowball's chance in a CAT scanner

Hello Sheldon

[EvilotionCR2]

KSP is not about 100% realism,is about fun and humor about little green men trying to get into space. And it's doing it's job very well... Also,the current science instruments are placeholders,they will be changed with Knowledge system (probably).

[Holo]

KSP is not about 100% realism,is about fun and humor about little green men trying to get into space. And it's doing it's job very well... Also,the current science instruments are placeholders,they will be changed with Knowledge system (probably).

The same argument also applies to removing orbits, adding weapons and having unlimited fuel.

Anyway, the knowledge system says 5 C, which can be explained by having tidal heating from Jool warm the surface.

[Poison Penguin]

Who's to say there isn't life? What about the microscopic life that produced all of Earth's oxygen while living in the ocean for so long? How do you know it's not there?

[Poison Penguin]

Originally there were only microscopic plant like organisms on earth that had to survive very extreme, hell like conditions compared to what we have now. It survived in the oceans and slowly produced oxygen. Why could such a thing not exist on Laythe?

Edited June 3, 2013 by Poison Penguin
Cannot figure out how do Delete posts after a glitch that made me think my post didn't post

[Person012345]

Before I begin this thread, I would like to state that I know this is a game, but that doesn't exempt it from being unrealistic when so many other things are realistic. Laythe is physically impossible.

IIRC the thermometer in game is broken anyway.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Rich

[Person012345]

The thermometer readings are placeholders, don't pay them much attention.

Atmospheric compositions are currently guesswork, and all that the wiki says is that the atmosphere contains oxygen, since jet engines work there. Also, Laythe is the innermost moon of Jool and may be heated by Jool, or it may be heated by tidal action in the same way as Io, though not to the same extent.

As for the temperature needed by life -- life on Earth prefers warmer temperatures becaue life on Earth is adapted to Earth. Life on Laythe will be adapted for conditions there.

Dude, polar bears don't exist. They're a myth.

OP, why did you make this post? Do you not know what tidal heating is? Do you not know there is life on earth that thrives in conditions well below 5 degrees? Did you not know that the thermometer ingame doesn't work? Your analysis fails on every level.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Person012345

[GJames]

Dude, polar bears don't exist. They're a myth.

OP, why did you make this post? Do you not know what tidal heating is? Do you not know there is life on earth that thrives in conditions well below 5 degrees? Did you not know that the thermometer ingame doesn't work? Your analysis fails on every level.

If you read back a few pages you'll find that OP had all that shizzle explained to them by Fractal, Nova and others, and then they apologized for not double-checking facts and looking stuff up.

So...I guess your post fails on every level...

[Person012345]

If you read back a few pages you'll find that OP had all that shizzle explained to them by Fractal, Nova and others, and then they apologized for not double-checking facts and looking stuff up.

So...I guess your post fails on every level...

How does it fail? I fail to see how it fails on any level. If everyone agrees and he has admitted he was wrong, does that not just confirm that my post was in fact right? Even if I made it after said agreement?

[CalMacDa]

It's not so unreasonable actually, first of all, there is nothing to suggest that Laythe's atmosphere is pure oxygen, the wiki merely states that oxygen is present in the atmosphere, most likely this would be along with nitrogen and carbon dioxide. You are right to suggest that oxygen would almost certainly be the result of life but this life could be extremely simple, algae in the oceans for example.

The temperature is not particularly unreasonable either, the solar insolation may be far lower at Jool than at Kerbin but tidal heating would be a significant factor due to the proximity to Jool and the orbital resonance with Vall and Tylo. Volcanic activity would most likely be extensive on the moon but that could be positive for any lifeforms there. Tidal heating of the core which drives this volcanism could generate a powerful magnetic field which would help to protect life forms from the intense radiation that would be trapped in Jool's magnetosphere. Indeed, this radiation would probably be the greatest danger to life on Laythe though a wide range of values are plausible. The atmosphere would also help shield life on the surface from this radiation.

I agree strongly with this statement...

It is completely possible. Did you know that the average temperature on Jupiter's moon Io is on average -200 degrees and can reach all the way to 3000 degrees? If the conditions are right and the stars align (figuratively), it is possible. The chance of Laythe harboring life and having all that water and that temperature is 1 in a million, it is possible! Squad made all these conditions correct just to add this very fun moon and the primary reason people travel to Jool.

[Ralathon]

1.5 year necro.

[xcorps]

1.5 year necro.

Proof of life after death.