Calling all VTOL pilots! The Cupcake Challenge Cup Is Here....

[Cupcake...]

THE MISSION:
Gentlemen, the objective is simple; use the Sherpa to pick up the MK 1-2 Pod and drop it off again at the top of the podium, easy right? Well no, not really. You see the POD is going to be hurtling down the runway at 5m/s!!! Yes you heard me 5m/s!! Once you've docked with the POD you're permitted to stop and save before flying up to the podium, if you don't save and re-load there's a chance the controls will lock up. Good luck gentlemen and remember the winner gets the Golden Cupcake.

CHALLENGE FILE
Check out http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/29151-Every-Spaceport-should-have-one-of-these-does-yours to familiarize yourself with the Sherpa. You'll find the ship and challenge file there. Remember, press 6 to launch the POD and 7 to de-couple the Sherpa.

RULES:
All submissions must be in the form of videos done in a single continuous take.
The judges decision is final.
Cash bribes are accepted and in fact encouraged, just leave them in the bin at the end of the football field, I prefer hard currency but gold, jewelry or a new Samsung Galaxy S4 will do.
Modifying the ship, e.g adding up-rated rocket engines is forbidden.
Docking must be done in motion after the separator rocket has fired.
Using the Sherpa to push or slow the MK 1-2 POD is forbidden.

HINTS AND TIPS:
http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/29165-Calling-all-VTOL-pilots%21-The-Cupcake-Challenge-Cup-Is-Here?p=406180#post406180

JUDGING CRITERIA:
There are three Cupcake's to be won, a gold, silver and bronze. To give you a rough example my piloting in the video will (just about) earn me a silver cupcake, the sloppy docking maneuver and the atrocious drop off didn't do me any favors.

THE GOLDEN CUPCAKE - You flew like the Lord himself landed perfectly on top of the MK1-2 POD, and the docking terminals mated the instant they touched together. Of course you managed to do this well before the POD even got close to leaving the runway. At no point did any part of the Sherpa touch the ground or come close to scratching the paintwork, and when you dropped the POD off on the podium you did it so lightly that the dust itself wasn't disturbed.



THE SILVER CUPCAKE - You managed to rescue the POD before it slipped off the runway, but the docking maneuver was pretty iffy, and you accidental bashed against the side of the POD while trying to dock. Although you got the POD onto the Podium the touchdown was pretty rough and some bits seem to have fallen off it, still you did all this without touching down. Well done!



THE BRONZE CUPCAKE - Despite the POD rolling off the runway, getting burnt by your jets, and almost getting knocked over you soldiered on and somehow managed to get it onto the podium. You touched down a few times but we'll ignore that and applaud your sterling effort. Good job!



AUNTIE ETHAL'S CUPCAKE - Despite destroying the POD, nearly toppling the gantry, and crashing into that crowd of spectators we thank you for taking part and reward your efforts with this homemade cupcake, now chin up! Dry those tears and give it another go....




Good luck!

Cupcake... Edited May 30, 2013 by Cupcake...

[coyote47713]

can i use the KAS?

[Reavermyst]

Totally gonna attempt this

*20 attempts later*

Sorry but awkward flight controls + me = keyboard out the window. This is not a fun challenge. This game has awkward flight controls for VTOL craft to the point of it being painful to use with precision. No seriously, my left hand hurts now because of this!

Edited May 27, 2013 by Reavermyst

[Tollazor]

My God this is terribly hard. Using the default keys at least.

Might have to hook in a proper 8 directional RC controller to get a better chance of claiming bronze. So far my attempts have proven ..... explosive.

[zarakon]

Cupcake, do you fly this with a stick or the keyboard?

ok, i'm now seeing that steering is nowhere near as much of a problem as throttle control

i absolutely cannot maintain a stable altitude in this thing

Edited May 28, 2013 by zarakon

[Cupcake...]

Hey Guys,

Man, those Cupcakes have come out big! Um, so yes, firstly I just wanted to apologize for not getting back to you all earlier, this thread was a bit quiet in the beginning so I didn't check it as often as I should have:blush:. I also just wanted to say well done for attempting the challenge, I really mean it, it's not an easy one, not at all. I consider myself a fair VTOL pilot but even I find it very tricky indeed! But I guess like all things in life the bigger the challenge the bigger the reward, I guess what I'm saying is if you complete the challenge you'll emerge a much better pilot then when you started, and pretty soon you'll be able to land on a pin head.

There are a few things that'll make the challenge a lot easier:

1) For everyone using a keyboard, don't. Sorry, but I think without a joystick with a throttle or at the very least an analogue game pad, the chances of competing the challenge are very small, I'll happily be proved wrong on this but I think you really need analogue controls for this one. If you can get hold of joystick that twists as well this is a big advantage, as you can map the Yaw controls to this axis, if you don't have a twisty joystick you might want to get hold of some rudder pedals.

2) Remember, flying a VTOL is a little bit like flying a helicopter (well a bit easier actually, no tail rotor torque!) in that you're constantly balancing conflicting forces, it's not a question of just setting 25% throttle and leaving it there, you'll have to constantly make tiny corrections especially during hovering or low speed maneuvers.

2) ASAS is your friend! Keep it on at all times it'll make life so much easier.

3) Use the Jets and Rockets in combination, using the jets alone will have you fighting the throttle lag of the engines, using both will give you silky smooth altitude control.

4) Press 3 to activate the docking light, it'll help you guide the two ports together.

5) Don't over correct! Keep your movements small and give the ship a chance to settle after each maneuver.

6) Practice, Practice, Practice! The more you fly the Sherpa the more you'll get a feel for it's "rhythm", eventually it'll become like an extension of yourself and you'll be able to anticipate it's movements without even thinking about it. You can also practice using the fuel dumps and command pods, but instead of rolling over them you can try and land on top and connect the docking ports way.

7) Keep the landing gear up while doing the challenge. The last thing you want is to be knocked off course seconds before docking because a wheel touched the ground!

8) Come prepared. Do as much as you can before you launch the drone, fold the gear up, put the docking light on, activate ASAS, you can also wait for the Jets to spin up to speed.

9) If you haven't much experience with VTOLs, take the Orca out for a spin, it's got wonderful handling and is great for novices.

http://snk.to/f-cu9avl8p

10) Avoid the keyboard completely if you can! Using the power of Microsoft paint I've put together a picture of my setup:

As you can see I've got all the important controls at my finger tips, so I don't need to reach over and start hunting for keys at critical moments. My joystick is a Sidewinder 2 which is pretty ancient now but does the job nicely, and has that twisty thing I talked about early. A more modern equivalent might be something like this, seems pretty cheap too...

http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/extreme-3d-pro-joystick

So yes, if you follow this advice I'm confident you'll succeed, if you're still having trouble post a video on this thread, and I'll and I'll give you what feedback I can. Anyway, I hope this helps, good luck and I'm sure soon enough we'll have less of this...

...and more of this...

Cupcake...

Edited May 30, 2013 by Cupcake...

[Nullspace250]

Hey Guys,

Man, those Cupcakes have come out big! Um, so yes, firstly I just wanted to apologize for not getting back to you all earlier, this thread was a bit quiet in the beginning so I didn't check it as often as I should have:blush:. I also just wanted to say well done for attempting the challenge, I really mean it, it's not an easy one, not at all. I consider myself a fair VTOL pilot but even I find it very tricky indeed! But I guess like all things in life the bigger the challenge the bigger the reward, I guess what I'm saying is if you complete the challenge you'll emerge a much better pilot then when you started, and pretty soon you'll be able to land on a pin head.

There are a few things that'll make the challenge a lot easier:

1) For everyone using a keyboard, don't. Sorry, but I think without a joystick with a throttle or at the very least an analogue game pad, the chances of competing the challenge are very small, I'll happily be proved wrong on this but I think you really need analogue controls for this one. If you can get hold of joystick that twists as well this is a big advantage, as you can map the Yaw controls to this axis, if you don't have a twisty joystick you might want to get hold of some rudder pedals.

2) Remember, flying a VTOL is a little bit like flying a helicopter (well a bit easier actually, no tail rotor torque!) in that you're constantly balancing conflicting forces, it's not a question of just setting 25% throttle and leaving it there, you'll have to constantly make tiny corrections especially during hovering or low speed maneuvers.

2) ASAS is your friend! Keep it on at all times it'll make life so much easier.

3) Use the Jets and Rockets in combination, using the jets alone will have you fighting the throttle lag of the engines, using both will give you silky smooth altitude control.

4) Press 3 to activate the docking light, it'll help you guide the two ports together.

5) Don't over correct! Keep your movements small and give the ship a chance to settle after each maneuver.

6) Practice, Practice, Practice! The more you fly the Sherpa the more you'll get a feel for it's "rhythm", eventually it'll become like an extension of yourself and you'll be able to anticipate it's movements without even thinking about it. You can also practice using the fuel dumps and command pods, but instead of rolling over them you can try and land on top and connect the docking ports way.

7) Keep the landing gear up while doing the challenge. The last thing you want is to be knocked off course seconds before docking because a wheel touched the ground!

8) Come prepared. Do as much as you can before you launch the drone, fold the gear up, put the docking light on, activate ASAS, you can also wait for the Jets to spin up to speed.

9) If you haven't much experience with VTOLs, take the Orca out for a spin, it's got wonderful handling and is great for novices.

http://snk.to/f-cu9avl8p

10) Avoid the keyboard completely if you can! Using the power of Microsoft paint I've put together a picture of my setup:

As you can see I've got all the important controls at my finger tips, so I don't need to reach over and start hunting for keys at critical moments. My joystick is a Sidewinder 2 which is pretty ancient now but does the job nicely, and has that twisty thing I talked about early. A more modern equivalent might be something like this, seems pretty cheap too...

http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/extreme-3d-pro-joystick

So yes, if you follow this advice I'm confident you'll succeed, if you're still having trouble post a video on this thread, and I'll and I'll give you what feedback I can. Anyway, I hope this helps, good luck and I'm sure soon enough we'll have less of this...

...and more of this...

Cupcake...

Seems im out of this, i only have a kb and i am terrible at vtols D:

[Reavermyst]

Yeah i got a stick, but I rarely use it since it interferes with my mouse controls with other games and is a pain in the butt to plug in. I don't havea lot of room to move around to plug things in easily...

[madspy]

I am going to try this. Watch this space :/

[Cupcake...]

I am going to try this. Watch this space :/

Will you be the first one to crack it? I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed for you!

Cupcake...

[rodion_herrera]

I fly with a stick, so I'll think about this challenge I've got personal challenges to finish ths weekend as well

[madspy]

I might! I am usually really good with things in the atmosphere, and I love building VTOLs so I might do it...

*begins handing out waivers to kerbals*

[Nao]

First time I flew a working jet based VTOL since the jet engines were introduced patch ( around 0.14? ) lol

Damn its hard to control them, if i could i would drain all the fuel and flew it just on rockets, it would be much easier ... Proper RCS would help a ton too. Oh well at least i made it.

After about an hour of tries and flying around i brought up fraps. And on the 3rd recorded attempt made it work somehow. Also dropped it on the first try too . Also HOMAK! (hands on mouse and keyboard)

Video: http://youtu.be/1sGycpJUmjY

(hopefully it will be available soon). Didn't had time to mix some music into it, but at least i got better encoding program (Avidemux, so it doesn't as horrible as last time (regatta challenge)) Still abysmal upload speed i got makes it really hard to upload even 480p videos so sorry for bad quality Important time stamps: 2:30 docking, 6:45 drop

Driving was a little cheat-y but the pain of landing on the decoupler and the slipping away after 10s on every successful approach made me lazy.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Nao

[Banbite]

Had a go at this for an hour or two. Pretty difficult, but did a pretty good job of crashing into the pod and the ground.

Will have another go tomorrow. Fun challenge and a fun to fly VTOL.

edit: also had some problems with the lazor mod makes all the launch clamps explode when I decouple, have to fix that somehow.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Banbite

[madspy]

Ok. I have tried this and for some reason the game crashes every time I do anything, so I have to call it quits. Sorry

[strokerstang65]

Bravo Guys. Outta my league lol

[Cupcake...]

Well first of all I want to say a big congratulations to Nao for being the first to complete the challenge, and with a fine performance to boot! Hooray!

Not only that he's proved me wrong and has somehow managed to complete the mission with a keyboard! To you sir I tip my hat. I was also very impressed with the creative way Nao completed the challenge, it was certainly done in a way I hadn't anticipated, namely using the rockets to bunny hop onto the pod, genius. I also want to say well done on the drop off, well I say drop off it was more precision bombing, but great job dropping your egg on target! So yes, to you Nao I hereby award a bronze Cupcake, you're truly an inspiration for us all!

While I'm here I just wanted to offer a suggestion to Madspy, the Sherpa and the challenge file we're created in 0.19 so if you still want to take part you can try a downgrade and see if that helps. Cheers.

Cupcake...

[Yargnit]

This is a perfect example of a challenge that should be tons of fun being ruined by being forced to be done by a pre-made design (specifically a bad one).

I LOVE to fly VTOL's. They are one of my favorite kinds of craft to make/fly. I've made a bunch of VTOL's to pick up Kerbal's out of the water & return them to KSC. Hell, I made an SSTO capable VTOL that I took to Laythe and used to pick up Jeb out of the middle of Laythe's ocean and return him to KSC. So naturally I thought, 'oh, this should be a fun challenge to take a crack at.' Not even close. The handling on this thing is absolutely atrocious to say the least. I was going to finish it just out of spite as a f&^% you to the controls but I just found myself wanting to throw my controller through the monitor.

So for anyone else who tried/is trying this and getting frustrated beyond belief, it's not your fault. VTOL's really aren't this horrible to fly if they are actually designed properly.

If I remember I'll probably finish this with a VTOL of my own design when I have a chance just to prove my point, and I'd advise anyone else that thinks the idea behind this sounds fun to do the same.

@Cupcake: A little tip I've learned from flying and having other people fly my stuff many times. - Everyone has a different flying style. Don't try and force your flying style onto others. What you love to fly is near uncontrollable to others, and vice-versa. Make the challenge and invite people to design their own VTOL's to complete it. You'll end up with much happier participants when they can use a design that fits their personal flying style in the competition.

[Mihara]

So for anyone else who tried/is trying this and getting frustrated beyond belief, it's not your fault. VTOL's really aren't this horrible to fly if they are actually designed properly.

Pardon me for attempted thread hijacking, but can you give any tips on designing VTOLs that fly reliably? The natural 'keep vertical thrust evenly spaced around CoM' doesn't work particularly well because fuel. Making a design where CoM never ever shifts even as it empties is annoyingly hard because it's hard to tell where it will be when it's empty. Are there any special tricks to it?

[Cupcake...]

Wow, well I'm sorry to hear that. Um, where do I start. Well, when I made the challenge I wanted to create a level playing field where everyone uses the same ship, a bit like stock car racing I guess where it's down to the driver not the car. While it would be great to have everyone design they're own VTOL's they'll not the easiest things to build as you yourself can probably appreciate. I was a bit surprised you found the handling so bad, as it something I pay special attention to when I design my drop ships, and like the rest of my creations I spent a long time balancing it in orbit to make sure the COM doesn't shift with the fuel load. I've put together quite a few VTOLs in my time and compared to the rest of them the handling of the Sherpa seems to stack up fine, it's nice and smooth, stable and seems to hold it's coarse well. If you can give me some examples of what constitutes good VTOL handling in your eyes, or perhaps upload some of your VTOL's I'd appreciate it. I've also made it clear that this is a challenge you need a joystick for, if were using a keyboard or game controller, then yes it is going to be frustrating and I can completely understand that. As far as forcing people to fly my way, well yes, I do like flying that way and like the rest of the designers here I design ships that reflect my flying style, I wouldn't say this was a bad thing. I do feel that KSP is better played with a stick because after all when Armstrong guided the Lunar lander down to the surface he wasn't using a keyboard and mouse. Anyway, I am sorry that you found the challenge frustrating, and I will take your feedback on-board.

Cupcake...

This is a perfect example of a challenge that should be tons of fun being ruined by being forced to be done by a pre-made design (specifically a bad one).

I LOVE to fly VTOL's. They are one of my favorite kinds of craft to make/fly. I've made a bunch of VTOL's to pick up Kerbal's out of the water & return them to KSC. Hell, I made an SSTO capable VTOL that I took to Laythe and used to pick up Jeb out of the middle of Laythe's ocean and return him to KSC. So naturally I thought, 'oh, this should be a fun challenge to take a crack at.' Not even close. The handling on this thing is absolutely atrocious to say the least. I was going to finish it just out of spite as a f&^% you to the controls but I just found myself wanting to throw my controller through the monitor.

So for anyone else who tried/is trying this and getting frustrated beyond belief, it's not your fault. VTOL's really aren't this horrible to fly if they are actually designed properly.

If I remember I'll probably finish this with a VTOL of my own design when I have a chance just to prove my point, and I'd advise anyone else that thinks the idea behind this sounds fun to do the same.

@Cupcake: A little tip I've learned from flying and having other people fly my stuff many times. - Everyone has a different flying style. Don't try and force your flying style onto others. What you love to fly is near uncontrollable to others, and vice-versa. Make the challenge and invite people to design their own VTOL's to complete it. You'll end up with much happier participants when they can use a design that fits their personal flying style in the competition.

[Nao]

YaY choco-cupkae, nomnomnomnmom.

@Yargnit can you share some of your designs, i would like to try one.

@Cupcake... I find signing posts on a gaming forum with own name redundant and overly formal, since we can see your name already... but since it's "cupcake" it makes it hilarious, as if you were addressing somebody cupcake at the end to heat up the conversation.

Anyways, thanks for the work you put in creating this challenge... cupcake.

[Cupcake...]

My pleasure, and well done again for completing it. Hopefully you'll be the first of many!

Cupcake... (Sorry, force of habit)

YaY choco-cupkae, nomnomnomnmom.

@Yargnit can you share some of your designs, i would like to try one.

@Cupcake... I find signing posts on a gaming forum with own name redundant and overly formal, since we can see your name already... but since it's "cupcake" it makes it hilarious, as if you were addressing somebody cupcake at the end to heat up the conversation.

Anyways, thanks for the work you put in creating this challenge... cupcake.

[localSol]

[...] Man, those Cupcakes have come out big!

Um [....] My joystick is a Sidewinder 2 which is pretty ancient now but does the job nicely, and has that twisty thing I talked about early. A more modern equivalent might be something like this, seems pretty cheap too...http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/extreme-3d-pro-joystick

Well made challenge and vtol vehicle. I didn't manage to finish it, but thanks to this thread I did go buy a Logitech Extreme 3d Pro, pretty good joystick, especially for cheap. It's the first joystick I have had in about 10+ years. Little did I know that KSP has good joystick support too and the joystick comes with a utility for mapping axes and assigning commands to its many (12, plus 8 direction hat stick) buttons.

Edited June 3, 2013 by localSol

[WILL.I.AM K.]

I applaud you like that guy on the B9 thread.

[madspy]

I just ordered that Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

It looks really good