Escaping the Universe that is Ever Expanding

[drewbdoo2]

So, my friend and I were talking about Science and the Big Bang and the Universe, and all of sudden we noticed that we both loved to talk about things that didn't really have any REAL answer (Or at least any answer that we could think of) So, I brought up escaping the Universe. Now, I have a Basic (REALLY BASIC) understanding of Physics, math, space flight, and most of all science, as I prefer Biology and Geology to math and Physics. My argument was that it's impossible to do because you could never get enough energy (With the human race's current understanding of physics as I know it) to create the velocity needed to "escape" the universe. I'm not asking for a 1000 page report on this, I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks! I love the KSP Forums as I've found plenty of fellow nerds who aren't afraid to talk about stuff they know (or don't know for that matter) anything about.

[Kerbface]

Well I'm unclear on it myself, but I think the current theory is that, unlike the observeable universe, the actual universe is... endless, it has no edge, it's infinite. This seems strange to me, but apparently it's how it is. And the universe is not expanding like an explosion from a central point, but like the surface of a material being stretched, everything moving further away from everything else, so in that sense I guess there is no way to escape the universe moving in the third dimension.

[drewbdoo2]

Thanks for adding this! I guess I never really thought of the Universe not having a specific point to call "The Edge of the Universe".

[Nuke]

submit to entropy! you are all doomed!

[K^2]

There is no such thing as escaping the universe. You cannot reach any part that is outside. Mostly, because there is no outside. Thing of the universe less as empty space in which galaxies are flying apart and more along the lines of the surface of a balloon that's being inflated.

[Inspector Gadget]

There might be a way to do it. Current theories suggest that there are multiple dimensions. We live in a three dimensional space (Four if you count time as on). We properly can't escape through our three dimensions but we could escape through the fourth dimension. As reference we can think of a two dimensional world were a creature can't get out via it's own dimensions. But it can get out through this third dimension.

If course the only problem with this is, How do we get to the fourth dimension? That of course would be imposible for any three-dimensional creature to move through the fourth. Maybe we could one day use the fourth to manipulate with our universe own universe but i don't believe we will ever be able to travel through it.

[K^2]

There is no accepted theory that requires extra dimensions nor is there any experimental evidence of such.

[falofonos]

The universe is expanding at light speed, in the sense that photons from a very early universe are moving away from us and they're part of the universe. Assuming the big pop theory is correct enough.

All you need to do is accelerate to just over 2 times light speed and you'll be able to overtake them. Once you overtake the most distant photons, you've theoretically escaped the universe. This may take 15 billion years + or - a few billion.

Sadly, you are part of the universe so you're just carrying the edge further out with you.

Also accelerating to light speed is, according to some people far more intelligent than I, impossible.

Options such as Alcubierre drives, naturally occurring wormholes leading to your destination, warp drives, hyperspace translations and other magic plot devices may allow you to get there faster but there's not much to see outside the universe unless you're prepared to wait for the light cone to catch up with you.

[wasmic]

I like to think of it this way: The universe exists because there is something in it. Should you reach the edge of the universe, you would just expand the universe by crossing that edge. Like a balloon. I you could somehow poke it from the inside, you would just expand it.

EDIT: @K^2, I saw an article about someone observing a myon to spontaneously "teleport", that is, taking a shortcut through the 4th dimension.

Edited May 22, 2013 by wasmic

[BigFatStupidHead]

In a very basic form, to leave here, we need to go someplace that is not-here. So, to escape the universe, we need to go somewhere that is not-the-universe. So, to find a way to leave the universe, it's sort of important to figure out where we're leaving TO.

[TheCardinal]

.... it's impossible to do because you could never get enough energy to create the velocity needed to "escape" the universe. ....

You assume there is a speed at which you can escape the universe? What speed is that (and why do think that is the speed to escape the universe)?

[rkman]

Given that (over large distances) the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light(*,

in order to escape the universe you'd have to exceed the speed of light, which according to the best scientific understanding of the universe is not possible.

Also it requires the universe to be finite in expanse, and it's not at all certain that it is.

*) "While special relativity constrains objects in the universe from moving faster than the speed of light with respect to each other, it places no theoretical constraint on changes to the scale of space itself."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

[drewbdoo2]

You assume there is a speed at which you can escape the universe? What speed is that (and why do think that is the speed to escape the universe)?

I just meant that if theoretically you could reach the speed of light (which IS impossible) would Newton's Third law still apply? Or is there some dark corner of physics that we don't know of yet? I mean to say this: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to that of the first body. With this reaction, your "fuel" would have to be "equal" to the force it takes to reach the speed of light, assuming you have an engine that gets "100% Efficiency". How can the human race ever create a reaction that would allow us to reach the speed of light ... or how could we find the engine and fuel that would let us reach that speed. And again, I have a VERY basic understanding of physics. If someone feels like blasting me on one of these ridiculous theories, feel free to do so.

[TheCardinal]

.....if theoretically you could reach the speed of light (which IS impossible) would Newton's Third law still apply?

That's an easy one. No, the third law doesn't apply anymore even at lower speeds than the speed of light.

A law (such as Newton's law) usually is a theoretical and mathematical simplication of reality. It applies within certain boundaries. When those boundaries are crossed, the law ceases to be a good simplication, hence it ceases to be a law. Newton's first law is a good example. In normal everyday life it accurately predicts what will happen given the specific circumstances at that time. Cosmological speaking, it has been proven to be inaccurate. Einstein's theory of relativity gives a better prediction (again within certain circumstances) but since that is very cumbersome to use in everyday life, Newton's law is used.

.

As someone else already mentioned here, the answer to your question depends on your definition of "escaping the universe".

.....If someone feels like blasting me on one of these ridiculous theories, feel free to do so.

This is not the place for someone who blasts someone else. Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion (within the normal constraints), no matter how ridiculous a theorie may sound.

.

In my opinion the poll should have a third option "That depends .....".

Edited May 23, 2013 by TheCardinal

[drewbdoo2]

As someone else already mentioned here, the answer to your question depends on your definition of "escaping the universe".

In my opinion the poll should have a third option "That depends .....".

Thank you for your feedback! Just about to add that third category to the poll. From what you and many others have said is starting to make a lot more sense to me now. Every answer is relative to the situation...

Edit: Can't figure out how to change the poll...

Edited May 24, 2013 by drewbdoo2

[Brabbit1987]

Escaping the universe? If you could and the laws of physics no longer apply outside, you would die instantly. o.o Scary thought. So I have to ask, would you even want to try?

I don't see it in the realm of impossibility, though as other have said it really depends on many factors, of which we do not know yet. What if the universe is like a circle? No matter how far you go .. you just keep going round and round. Same can be said about earth. Go in one direction long enough .. and you will end up in the same place.

[iRommel]

right after the big bang the universe expanded faster than the speed of light.... things werent traveling through space faster than light, but space was being created as the objects were expanding. this is probably why physicists insist warp drives are theoretically possible... because its already happened.

as i understand it, the universe is not expanding at the same rate anymore. not that we've observed the edge of the universe.... so its just an idea.

now.... to get the next part you need to understand that the universe is made up of the space/time fabric. basically when you enter a gravity field, the fabric bowls in towards the gravity making object.

so basically without the fabric of space.... i dunno what happens, divide by 0 i guess. however, i'd gather than since we have mass, and any ship we take to try to get outside the universe would be massive (food storage, fuel, etc) the ship would be carrying its own space/time fabric with it. we would then be a droplet outside our universe, or a new universe or something. or maybe its impossible to cut the space/time fabric.

when they discovered/proved the higgs boson, i read something somewhere that this particle is theorized to have a limited lifespan.... and since its the thing that gives things mass.... once the higgs stops giving things mass the universe will collapse on itself/dividebyzero.

[Natsarugiy]

It will be impossible to escape the Universe in a 3 dimensional context. Think of it like a normal curve, sure you can get past 99.9% of matter in the universe (far left or far right on the normal curve) but you'll still within the domain of the normal curve. No matter how far you travel in the x, y, or z direction, you won't escape. There is no physical edge of the universe. But if we stretch our definition of "escape" then it may, theoretically, be possible.

The universe may indeed have no edge, but it did have a beginning. Now, if you'll bear with me for a moment, if we were to travel back in time to any moment before the universe began (keep in mind or definition of time and mass and just about everything ever breaks down at this point), then we may be able to "escape" the universe. Some theories suggest that traveling faster than light maybe allow time travel, but stuff about requiring all energy in the universe and intersecting yourself and other theoretical complications make it pretty pointless to talk about.

So simple, real answer: Escaping the Universe is impossible.

Non-real, creative answer: Sure, if don't care about semantics.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Natsarugiy

[Temstar]

The way it's been explained to me, the multiverse is a like an endless room. Inside the room countless bubbles float around, each bubble is an universe. Most importantly each universe has its own set of physical constant that are different from each other.

By physical constant I mean things like speed of light in vacuum c, the gravitational constant G, Planck's constant h, the electric constant ε0, and the elementary charge e. In order for physics and chemistry as we know it to exist the universe must have very fine tuned set of physical constant, this is known as the Fine-tuned Universe. If any of those constants are only sightly off from our own set then not only is life as we know it cannot exist, physics itself as we know it cannot exist and large scale structures like galaxies and superclusters will not form in the way we can see. However these other alien universes with its own set of constants will have it's own laws of physics that are internally consistent and may give rise to intelligence, just not in ways familiar to us.

So with these bubbles floating around they sometimes collide into each other to have two bubbles join together to form one bubble, and converse sometimes one bubble will split into two. Each of these kind of event is a big bang that generates a new universe. Each big bang scrambles the constants at random to generate a new universe with entirely new laws of physics.

Our physics so far can only probe at the laws of physics within our own universe. We kinda sorta have a theory now (the Standard Model) which explains what causes 3 of the 4 fundamental forces of our universe. Once this theory is complete the next step will be a Theory of Everything which unifies gravity with the other three forces to arrive at a model that explains all interaction within our universe. But to understand the multiverse requires a theory even further than a Theory of Everything. An even more fundamental theory that explains how physics came to be and what governs the interactions between universes and how their physical constants are generated. We need to be armed with this theory before we can figure out a way to go to other universes.

So it's not simply about going faster than the speed of light or hopping on a ship and go through a wormhole. When you actually go to a different universe there's no telling what the speed of light will be on the other hand and how matters will exist. It could well be intelligence in a different universe can only exist in incorporeal ghost like forms, in which case going there is going to involve destroying our form in this universe and rebuilding a new, comparable form in the new universe according to the laws of physics over there.

[Brabbit1987]

The way it's been explained to me, the multiverse is a like an endless room. Inside the room countless bubbles float around, each bubble is an universe. Most importantly each universe has its own set of physical constant that are different from each other.

By physical constant I mean things like speed of light in vacuum c, the gravitational constant G, Planck's constant h, the electric constant ε0, and the elementary charge e. In order for physics and chemistry as we know it to exist the universe must have very fine tuned set of physical constant, this is known as the Fine-tuned Universe. If any of those constants are only sightly off from our own set then not only is life as we know it cannot exist, physics itself as we know it cannot exist and large scale structures like galaxies and superclusters will not form in the way we can see. However these other alien universes with its own set of constants will have it's own laws of physics that are internally consistent and may give rise to intelligence, just not in ways familiar to us.

So with these bubbles floating around they sometimes collide into each other to have two bubbles join together to form one bubble, and converse sometimes one bubble will split into two. Each of these kind of event is a big bang that generates a new universe. Each big bang scrambles the constants at random to generate a new universe with entirely new laws of physics.

Our physics so far can only probe at the laws of physics within our own universe. We kinda sorta have a theory now (the Standard Model) which explains what causes 3 of the 4 fundamental forces of our universe. Once this theory is complete the next step will be a Theory of Everything which unifies gravity with the other three forces to arrive at a model that explains all interaction within our universe. But to understand the multiverse requires a theory even further than a Theory of Everything. An even more fundamental theory that explains how physics came to be and what governs the interactions between universes and how their physical constants are generated. We need to be armed with this theory before we can figure out a way to go to other universes.

So it's not simply about going faster than the speed of light or hopping on a ship and go through a wormhole. When you actually go to a different universe there's no telling what the speed of light will be on the other hand and how matters will exist. It could well be intelligence in a different universe can only exist in incorporeal ghost like forms, in which case going there is going to involve destroying our form in this universe and rebuilding a new, comparable form in the new universe according to the laws of physics over there.

This about sums it up in it's entirety. However, keep in mind it's only one hypothesis out of many. Example, some believe the bubbles and the space between are expanding, meaning no bubbles will ever touch. Big bangs happening randomly like lightning. Leaving the universe is not a good idea unless we where able to some how locate the ones that had the same physics and such. They know there is only a set amount of constants, which means our set of rules will apply to many universes. It's just a matter of finding them.

However, that hypothesis I brought with an ever expanding space between universes might pose a serious problem and may make it literally impossible to travel to another universe, let alone leave ours.

[The Jedi Master]

No. You would have to go many octotrillions times the speed of light, maybe even more. And yes, octotrillion is a real number.

[PringleMan]

Another take on it is how do you define the universe. Today the universe is typically defined as everything that is naturally observable. That is to say it is everything that we are capable of getting information from through observation. I think the first definition by Miriam Webster says "the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated." Oxford says "all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos. The universe is believed to be at least 10 billion light years in diameter and contains a vast number of galaxies; it has been expanding since its creation in the Big Bang about 13 billion years ago."

So if we go with that common definition, then any "universe" that we could possibly observe or go to is really just an extension of our own universe. Even the idea of multiple universes gets a wrench thrown in it because of this. If we were ever able to definitively show through observation or experimentation that there is another universe beyond our own, which would be required for it to be a scientifically valid idea and not some form of metaphysics, then by definition it would be part of our own universe.

Now if you want to go with a different definition for a universe that is fine, but for that matter we could also just define anything warmer than absolute 0 as a plasma and throw out everything else. Such definitions can not be totally arbitrary, there needs to be a good scientific reason to make such a definition. So in response to the OP: No. You cannot escape the universe. Because if you ever left the physical 4d space that our universe occupies, you would be somewhere that is observable and obviously connected to our universe somehow (you got there did you not?), and thus it would be included in our own universe. It is kind of a catch 22 if you ask me.

Edited May 24, 2013 by PringleMan