Let's Not.

[Anglave]

Dude, that's not how version numbers work. ಠ_ಠ

If I accept your statement and apologize, can we please not derail this thread into a discussion of version numbering? I made several other points in my post, the version number thing wasn't my thesis.

[PuffyV]

I would love to see where someone with any weight said this... Unless that response came from Harv, C7, Nova, or any of the other developers I would NEVER put any weight behind it.

That's the point though, OP didn't say it was any of the devs, it's the COMMUNITY that are saying these things; boot-licking and saying there's nothing wrong with it instead of accepting that there's a problem.

[AHO]

I would love to see where someone with any weight said this... Unless that response came from Harv, C7, Nova, or any of the other developers I would NEVER put any weight behind it. Even community managers I don't particularly trust for technical details. If any of the development team said this it must have been a bad joke. From the responses I saw, it said that it was an acknowledged issue that they were working to resolve.

With respect to what the thread is about, I can see both sides of the argument. I can see why you and others in this thread feel this way. I can also see how many complaint threads do get labeled as entitlement/whining threads.

My views:

1. The developers should not necessarily ignore the community (especially regarding content suggestions), but they should put hitting milestones and sticking to the development plan as a priority. Avoid the Notch poison of saying "the forums are screaming for the Kerbals to have pet cats, lets add them!"
   
2. People who make complaint threads about bugs right after a version release would serve the community better by producing comprehensive bug reports in the support forum. Obviously, bug fixing of major bugs should be a priority.
   
3. People who complain about features being moved back or the developers changing their development plan due to items being too large for one update....well....this really is whining and is one of the things the developers should read and then continue on their path.
   
4. Having 3-4 threads each featuring the same people complaining about the same bugs? 3 of those threads should get locked as redundant.
   
5. Don't like locked threads? Its basic forum management to ensure that productive conversations are taking place. Conversations that have run their course or degenerated into insults should be locked.
   

I've done my best not to throw up straw men. I have not said that your bugs are features. I acknowledge that you have a right to say whatever you want whenever and wherever you want. That said, there are forums for specific conversations. There are people on both sides that certainly do act as if they feel entitled in the threads this threads references.

No doubt, judging from current posts in the thread, I probably should have kept working instead of typing this.

Also, whatever the original intent of Minecraft I did like what it became. 3D block building game with monsters? I enjoyed this, up until whatever patch I stopped actively playing. I feel like I got my $10 worth. I still occasionally fire it up. But the last 10 or so patches haven't exactly wowed me (though there have been engine optimizatioms I have noticed). You can see the point where Notch sort of just decided to almost randomly throw things into the game in the patch release notes. KSP hasn't shown that tendency yet. Off topic of course, but its been a recurring theme.

I 100% agree with you

[Brabbit1987]

The issue I find is some people don't just simply say "Oh hey, found a bug here are the details, hope it can be fixed soon".

Many people whine and complain, whine and complain, and whine and complain more. There really is no need for it. This is an Alpha, you found a bug, holy crap! .. you found a bug .. what a surprise! >.> It's not a big deal, just please report it and be respectful. If you are not respectful about it, how do you suppose you will get treated?

Now on the other side. People need to realize this is an alpha, these bugs absolutely need to be reported. Don't go on a rant or call someone self entitled just because they mention a bug. This isn't a complete game, it is a alpha. Also everyone is entitled to their own opinions and ideas for the game. Don't bash someone because you do not agree. You simply can state why you do not agree, and move on. It's not really hard. These people didn't kill your puppy so calm down :3.

[itisdearflinch]

I also feel it's important we remember that the game is in alpha, we're all volunteer testers, and major game-breaking bugs aren't unexpected.

There is a difference between:

Unexpected bugs slipping through the QA testing and getting fixed in the next patch.

and

Bugs being shrugged off as "Who cares it's only an alpha" or "lol but its so kerbal xddd".

[hoojiwana]

No doubt, judging from current posts in the thread, I probably should have kept working instead of typing this.

I wouldn't say that at all. One-sided discussions very rarely lead anywhere productive.

[The Jedi Master]

I would love to see where someone with any weight said this... Unless that response came from Harv, C7, Nova, or any of the other developers I would NEVER put any weight behind it. Even community managers I don't particularly trust for technical details. If any of the development team said this it must have been a bad joke. From the responses I saw, it said that it was an acknowledged issue that they were working to resolve.

With respect to what the thread is about, I can see both sides of the argument. I can see why you and others in this thread feel this way. I can also see how many complaint threads do get labeled as entitlement/whining threads.

My views:

1. The developers should not necessarily ignore the community (especially regarding content suggestions), but they should put hitting milestones and sticking to the development plan as a priority. Avoid the Notch poison of saying "the forums are screaming for the Kerbals to have pet cats, lets add them!"
   
2. People who make complaint threads about bugs right after a version release would serve the community better by producing comprehensive bug reports in the support forum. Obviously, bug fixing of major bugs should be a priority.
   
3. People who complain about features being moved back or the developers changing their development plan due to items being too large for one update....well....this really is whining and is one of the things the developers should read and then continue on their path.
   
4. Having 3-4 threads each featuring the same people complaining about the same bugs? 3 of those threads should get locked as redundant.
   
5. Don't like locked threads? Its basic forum management to ensure that productive conversations are taking place. Conversations that have run their course or degenerated into insults should be locked.
   

I've done my best not to throw up straw men. I have not said that your bugs are features. I acknowledge that you have a right to say whatever you want whenever and wherever you want. That said, there are forums for specific conversations. There are people on both sides that certainly do act as if they feel entitled in the threads this threads references.

No doubt, judging from current posts in the thread, I probably should have kept working instead of typing this.

Also, whatever the original intent of Minecraft I did like what it became. 3D block building game with monsters? I enjoyed this, up until whatever patch I stopped actively playing. I feel like I got my $10 worth. I still occasionally fire it up. But the last 10 or so patches haven't exactly wowed me (though there have been engine optimizatioms I have noticed). You can see the point where Notch sort of just decided to almost randomly throw things into the game in the patch release notes. KSP hasn't shown that tendency yet. Off topic of course, but its been a recurring theme.

This is the best solution to the argument, IMHO. Now, instead of arguing, why don't we go land on Moho or something?

[air805ronin]

There is a difference between:

Unexpected bugs slipping through the QA testing and getting fixed in the next patch.

and

Bugs being shrugged off as "Who cares it's only an alpha" or "lol but its so kerbal xddd".

2 cents: Learn to ignore others in the community if you don't like what they say. the only response to be mad about is if someone with a green or red name tells you to sod off. These responses from lets say Harv would be pretty unacceptable unless its pretty obvious he's joking.

Oh and the "its so kerbal" thing is annoying.

[jfx]

The issue I find is some people don't just simply say "Oh hey, found a bug here are the details, hope it can be fixed soon".

Many people whine and complain, whine and complain, and whine and complain more. There really is no need for it. This is an Alpha, you found a bug, holy crap! .. you found a bug .. what a surprise! >.> It's not a big deal, just please report it and be respectful. If you are not respectful about it, how do you suppose you will get treated?

Whining and complaining is within human nature. You are whining and complaining right now about people who whine and complain. People won't whine less because of this - you won't change how people react to bugs they encounter. Just like Marge Simpson can't change the way Homer is.

Your job as development company of ANY software is to filter that out and concentrate to find out whether there are valid points behind that whining.

[Xeo]

With that, I feel the community should also be able to complain about the state of the community without persecution as long as it's constructive criticism, like this thread.

That is pretty much why there is a forum section devoted to bug reports and why there is a public section on the bugtracker. This is really great because that means that each early user can help the game getting better, and get involved in the game development, to some point.

On the other hand, starting threads complaining about "a bug crippled 0.20 update" in the general discussion section, without a proper bug report or any information that could help tracking those bugs down, criticizing Squad and/or the test/QA teams for "not doing their job", etc. isn't helpful at all.

I do not believe that this community will become comparable to Minecrafts (and I surely hope it won't). That said I feel that when I started playing a year ago, the community was more welcoming than it is now, and things like "the DLC rage" or "0.20 flaming threads" never happened until recently. This is why I personally start to worry a bit about the future of the community, even if it is still one of the more welcoming and pleasant gaming community I've ever been part of.

I like to think this is because each member care about the others, because the community care about itself and about the game. The very existence of this thread seems to be a proof of it, and as the OP said let's keep it that way

[Anglave]

There is a difference between:

Unexpected bugs slipping through the QA testing and getting fixed in the next patch.

and

Bugs being shrugged off as "Who cares it's only an alpha" or "lol but its so kerbal xddd".

I did beta testing for the first iteration of "Battlefield Heroes Online". It was obvious from day 1 that those devs weren't listening to the community, were shrugging off bug reports, and they were derisive and insulting about it. Game balance issues were terrible and completely addressed by the dev team.

I haven't observed any such behavior from SQUAD. They're not shrugging off bugs and calling them features; they're prioritizing during alpha development.

[Lumaro]

This is the best solution to the argument, IMHO. Now, instead of arguing, why don't we go land on Moho or something?

This isn't an argument, It's a civil debate.

[JonoRig]

The thing is a lot of the perceived "general whining" that a large amount of the forum-userbase sees is also legitimate criticism. 0.20 is buggy, and some of the optimisation methods used weren't the best options (planetary textures). People writing off any criticism as whining is exactly what the OP and many people here are concerned about.

I get that (well its not for me yet, but i know there are alot of issues) but what i meant it, i saw a thread that literally just said it is buggy, fix it; for me, my issues would be 1)the demanding/expectant tone, now just because its good business practice and PR, technically SQUAD are not obliged to finish this; 2) it is not helpful in the slightest, it really needs some details, at the very least, he could of listed some bugs that did occur, and 3) it specifically states what u need to post for a bug report, and he ignored ALL of it haha

i understand perceived whining is also an issue from the otherside of this argument, but i believe a criticism, if not helpful, should at least be polite; i didnt go to uni, and have my lecturer say "nah, your s**t, and ur work is terrible, why are you even here" no, i got advice, and shown where i was weak and how to improve; ok, not a perfect analogy, but you get my point

[MinmusBound]

2 cents: Learn to ignore others in the community if you don't like what they say. the only response to be mad about is if someone with a green or red name tells you to sod off. These responses from lets say Harv would be pretty unacceptable unless its pretty obvious he's joking.

Oh and the "its so kerbal" thing is annoying.

I agree. I mean, yeah, a little "LOL KERBAL" was fine at first, considering the nature of the game and the bugs that tended to cause weird happenings, but now it just seems like it's the battlecry for legions of people who don't actually want a spaceflight simulator, only a "blowing rockets and little green men up" simulator. And it should NEVER be an excuse for bugs or broken features.

[Brabbit1987]

Whining and complaining is within human nature. You are whining and complaining right now about people who whine and complain. People won't whine less because of this - you won't change how people react to bugs they encounter. Just like Marge Simpson can't change the way Homer is.

Your job as development company of ANY software is to filter that out and concentrate to find out whether there are valid points behind that whining.

I don't see how me explaining something is whining and complaining. You do know there is a huge difference. People like you don't seem to help, just wanna cause more issues like you are trying to do now. I expressed my opinion on both sides. You are simply just trying to be a smart ass and being unhelpful.

[Anglave]

Where are you guys seeing this "so Kerbal" thing? Is it a new development I've thankfully managed to miss?

[Sputnik-1]

Where are you guys seeing this "so Kerbal" thing? Is it a new development I've thankfully managed to miss?

It's a thing that's lingering way too long, and is the excuse for things being wobbly or in shambles.

[JonoRig]

It's a thing that's lingering way too long, and is the excuse for things being wobbly or in shambles.

As much as its enjoyable, and if it was fixed, i would miss it; it is WAAAAAAAAAAAY more inconvenient and irritating then it is charming; id rather it fixed, then stay but hey, i wont die if it isnt

[Brabbit1987]

It's a thing that's lingering way too long, and is the excuse for things being wobbly or in shambles.

I remember the first time I heard that, I didn't say anything but thought ... are you joking? o.o It's got to be one of the worst excuses I have ever heard. Can you imagine if you could do that in real life?

Yep, just robbed a bank, but you know .. it's a BRabbit thing to do, so it's all good. No need to arrest me. No need to fix this problem. :3

Oh you know what, I think my leg fell off. Doctor tells me not to worry cause it's a BRabbit thing. Doesn't need to be fixed.

My computer blew up, but you know what .. it's a BRabbit thing. It's to be expected.

[_Aramchek_]

I hope the devs don't actually listen to all the whining, that would be a great way to ruin the game by trying to appease everyone. Stick to your vision Harv, etc.

Reporting bugs doesn't ever need to go past "I was doing this, then that happened", and the general level of people being unhappy over a game they knowingly paid to play an alpha build of is just ridiculous.

Sometimes you do just have to grow up and learn to deal with things, and to go through appropriate means of reporting any valid problems.

That said, people sometimes report things as bugs that aren't, nor are they features or any of that, aside from just one of the realities of playing pc games.

[Anglave]

And you're talking about this game? This game I'm playing right now? And these forums? Where I've been checking all new posts daily for weeks now?

You see someone say this often enough that it's bothering you?

I've seen "A very Kerbal landing". Because most of our learning in Kerbal space is trial and error, and frequently the errors are spectacular.

But I've yet to see "lol so kerbal xddd" for anything, anywhere. Particularly not used by a developer as an excuse for ignoring a known bug...

[Alguien]

2 cents: Learn to ignore others in the community if you don't like what they say. the only response to be mad about is if someone with a green or red name tells you to sod off. These responses from lets say Harv would be pretty unacceptable unless its pretty obvious he's joking.

The whole point is the fear of that kind of community affecting the developers and shielding them for any possible criticism, ignoring said part is not going to make that fear go away.

[Anglave]

Also, I suspect that one reason the signal to noise ratio has gotten worse recently is the introduction of the game on Steam. The forum has a lot of new members, and I wonder how many new players even realize KSP is nowhere near finished yet?

[JonoRig]

I hope the devs don't actually listen to all the whining, that would be a great way to ruin the game by trying to appease everyone. Stick to your vision Harv, etc.

Reporting bugs doesn't ever need to go past "I was doing this, then that happened", and the general level of people being unhappy over a game they knowingly paid to play an alpha build of is just ridiculous.

Sometimes you do just have to grow up and learn to deal with things, and to go through appropriate means of reporting any valid problems.

That said, people sometimes report things as bugs that aren't, nor are they features or any of that, aside from just one of the realities of playing pc games.

most impressive one was a steam user i tried helping, then suggested he come here to get everyones opinion/better dev chance of seeing (ignore poor wording )

and he said, no, why should i go report this bug for free when ive paid for this game, they should go out of their way to find the issues; i dont mind when im being paid, but i wont waste my time for free, and if its not fixed then theyve lost a customer (and my immediate thought was... but youve already given them your money)

[Brabbit1987]

Also, I suspect that one reason the signal to noise ratio has gotten worse recently is the introduction of the game on Steam. The forum has a lot of new members, and I wonder how many new players even realize KSP is nowhere near finished yet?

This was actually one of my thoughts about it as well.

most impressive one was a steam user i tried helping, then suggested he come here to get everyones opinion/better dev chance of seeing (ignore poor wording )

and he said, no, why should i go report this bug for free when ive paid for this game, they should go out of their way to find the issues; i dont mind when im being paid, but i wont waste my time for free, and if its not fixed then theyve lost a customer (and my immediate thought was... but youve already given them your money)

Holy crap, why would he buy the game then? o.o I am confused. -.-