Let's Not.

[whatisthisidonteven]

Er, wrong name, but I do kind of believe that I am correct in my interpretation, maintaining it's orbit is not the same as subjecting the station to the forces inherent in trying to go to other planets, etc.

There is no need to so heavily defend the mods, MD5000 stated somthing that was false and he was corrected. I don't see why you have a problem with that.

[nhnifong]

Yeah people report the strangest things sometimes, or stuff that just isn't a bug like losing control in orbit (gotta power your probes guys) but this wobble is a real pain.

The attachment nodes are supposed to be rigid, that's what they are called in Unity anyway, rigid nodes, and aren't meant to wobble but they do.

Squad are making the nodes do things that Unity hadn't really considered, what with the whole multi-part snap-together rocket thing, and if you throw gimballed engines into the mix and a finicky ASAS things get even worse.

Hopefully Unity will fix the nodes thing for us one day, or we'll get a stock strut gun like Harv mentioned ages ago, but until then we have to put up with it as best we can.

It's far from intended behaviour, but I would also kinda miss it if it were gone, I'm just so used to seeing it now.

Indeed the wobbly connections, lack of struts, and expansion limited to tricouplers and radial decouplers was what led to all those crazy explosions that got us all hooked in the first place.

[OtherDalfite]

I didn't even know people noticed me in these forums . Perhaps you're right. I just think that they have a good head on their shoulders and are much better than most other development teams I have encountered (not much I must admit). A reason I might not offer much criticism of them is because I am actually not that technically savvy. So even if I did spot a problem, I would have no idea how to even suggest fixing it (or even be able to discern if it is a bug or me just derping it up). Also I don't complain much about anything in real life so that might seem like I white knight for them as well.

But see, your criticism of me is the one I think should be levied toward the devs. You didn't insult me and you didn't form your opinion on me based on just a few posts. That is kinda why I might get a little involved with defending the devs. Much of the criticism levied toward them is overly harsh and based on perceived wrongdoing or some such. An example of something I would consider good criticism is all those people who have been talking about performance reduction with the new machine. I haven't noticed much ire over it just some disappointment. Same thing with the reduced textures of planets. It was something the devs attempted, and I think it is something that they didn't really implement correctly or shouldn't have done at all. Yet here came Nova and said that he might have derped a little and it might be reverted or fixed. How many other devs do that? How many PEOPLE in general do that?

I guess I admire the humility of the devs, is all.

Some criticism is too harsh, but you'll never see it here. And I agree that the devs should be told they are doing something wrong, but occasionally, even if it's not very nice, the community needs to speak up when the devs (Or some other person involved with the development or well being) of KSP are doing something wrong.

[Vanamonde]

Do we really need another thread about how oppressed we are? The fact that others disagree with you is not the same thing as censorship.

Of course the game has bugs. That's what "in development" means: unfinished, frequently buggy. There are a couple that have been around for a while that are a major nuisance and I really wish they would fix (Mainsail overheating), but we don't get to dictate the order in which Squad fixes the bugs. However, obviously they are working on bugs, not only with the big updates, but with the post-update patches. Where is the basis for complaint? How is anyone being prevented from saying there are bugs? There are two entire sub-forums devoted to reporting bugs and seeking help with them.

If your complaint is that other players are shouting you down, what difference does that make as long as Squad is seeing your bug reports? Is there an example you can point to of Squad doing something wrong just because it was popular, or not fixing something because too many players claimed not to mind it?

I'm not sure a moderation team that allows a Fur-Fetish megathread in the forums of a sandbox space sim should be in charge of determining which threads "provide value to the community".

]The fact that this thread is there at all disproves the complaint that the mods are shutting down things they don't like. You can't have it both ways, and complain that they're shutting down too much AND not shutting down enough.

Pardon me if I am wrong, but isn't KSP set in our Universe? So does that mean some of the Laws of Physics still correspond, so that means some of the KSP physics should be somewhat realistic?

KSP is not intended to be in our universe. The planets are far more dense than they should be for their size. But if you take that difference as a starting point, the physics actually is quite realistic.

If you really want to see lazy developers that never get around to fixing bugs, then I invite you to try any release by Creative Arts and Bethesda, both of which put out 'gold box' editions that have lists of serious glitches as long as your leg. KSP, in alpha, has fewer problems than the supposedly finished products of those two companies.

I'm not trying to imply that the devs would let this become another minecraft

Yes, you are. That is the whole basis of your complaint. Edited May 29, 2013 by KasperVld

[_Aramchek_]

There is no need to so heavily defend the mods, MD5000 stated somthing that was false and he was corrected. I don't see why you have a problem with that.

I think you are allowing your own weird preconceptions and the topic of the op, weak as it is, to influence your critical thinking.

It wouldn't matter to me who had made the statement, it could have even been you for all I care about the "who" of it, I simply think most people took the comment entirely too literally.

Which is something I often see on this forum, I'm not pointing any fingers in any particular direction, nor even claiming it to be an awful trait, but, I think due to the nature of this game it does attract a subset of the populace with poor social skills, which could stem from any number of reasons really, but it leads to people ignoring the "spirit" of posts at times in favor of an overtly guileless, by the letter interpretation.

Which is not always going to be the best way of having a reasonable discourse with other, real life humans. Especially on mufti-cultural forums where people may have varying degrees of familiarity of and using the english language.

Sometimes, often in fact, the ability to abstractly think about a comment is quite handy.

Excellent post Vanamonde!

Edited May 29, 2013 by _Aramchek_

[Payload]

I don't know precisely how the algorithm works right now but I can definitely see what you're getting at. Overcorrection has consistently been a performance issue when I try to rely on asas for much. In many cases I have had cleanly successful launches that were previously ripped to pieces by asas overcorrection. It would seem that all of the relevant data on a craft is in the game during a flight. things like mass, velocity, and momentum all have to be known by the engine for it to run the simulation right? if that information is there I can't honestly see why a more nuanced approach to asas isn't possible, more complicated to code surely, but not impossible. Maybe I don't know enough but I've been trying to think up a reason and i'm coming up empty.

First

It's called PID. That stands for Proportional_Integral_Derivative.

It is possible to tune PID controllers. It is possible to auto tune PID controllers. You still wont get what everyone wants. Perfect control of every craft, all the time. It is possible to make it better. Not possible to make it perfect.

The current PID control is actually not that bad. The problem is control surfaces. They react in a way that us RC pilots like to call Bang Bang. There is no 10-20-50% deflection. There is only 100% or 0%.

The current problem facing the devs when it comes to the PID implementation, is called Shoot Through. In this situation, I am personally not qualified to pass judgement. The only PID loops I have ever programmed where all for specific devices and specific control schemes. Trying to write a universal loop for god knows what people will subject it too, is what I would consider HARD science. So hard in-fact, that makers of such devices for RC control always include a gain setting. I.E. THEY CAN'T DO IT EITHER.

I cannot say exactly what changes are needed to make the current PID more manageable. I would personally start with the Bang Bang control problem. That is what is causing 90% of the shoot through. It also wouldn't hurt to have a gain setting.

What isn't going to help?

People that have no idea how any of it works yelling FIX IT! Or being mad that this alpha game has a few bugs.

Most of what I see in the bug report section is just useless crying. You know what isn't a bug report? This is broken! Fix it! Yea, that isn't a bug report and there is no reason why that kind of thread shouldn't be locked immediately.

Second

The people that are defending wobbly rockets are trying to make light of a situation that isn't going to change any time soon. Allow me to explain.

Squad (awesome dudes) didn't make the engine this game runs on. They only make the game. This is an engine problem. It's also an obscure engine problem. One that the makers of the engine are not going to be fixing or even caring about anytime soon. That is why you get people saying it's a part of Kerbal. It sounds better than saying Get used to it because it will never change. That would lead to animosity towards the Squad crew even though they have no control over this particular happenstance.

-snip-

Edited May 29, 2013 by KasperVld

[whatisthisidonteven]

I think you are allowing your own weird preconceptions and the topic of the op, weak as it is, to influence your critical thinking.

It wouldn't matter to me who had made the statement, it could have even been you for all I care about the "who" of it, I simply think most people took the comment entirely too literally.

Which is something I often see on this forum, I'm not pointing any fingers in any particular direction, nor even claiming it to be an awful trait, but, I think due to the nature of this game it does attract a subset of the populace with poor social skills, which could stem from any number of reasons really, but it leads to people ignoring the "spirit" of posts at times in favor of an overtly guileless, by the letter interpretation.

Which is not always going to be the best way of having a reasonable discourse with other, real life humans. Especially on mufti-cultural forums where people may have varying degrees of familiarity of and using the english language.

Sometimes, often in fact, the ability to abstractly think about a comment is quite handy.

Excellent post Vanamonde!

He said that the space station is stationary, that it doesn't move and that they don't turn it.

That statement is false

There is nothing to be interpreted here.

[hoojiwana]

It wouldn't matter to me who had made the statement, it could have even been you for all I care about the "who" of it, I simply think most people took the comment entirely too literally.

But then again, you don't see them trying to turn the station around or fly with it... It's a station... It's stationary in its orbit...

M5000 says they don't try to turn the station, when it is turning constantly. He said it is stationary in its orbit, when it is not. People pointed out that he was wrong, that's all.

[Rascal Nag]

To me, I think that to get to the root of the problem, we have to look back at when KSP was just released. First, when I visited the forums then, it wasn't hard to find people, and the people I did find were much more in-tune with each other than those on the forums now since we all were closer. Things weren't as volatile. Second, we were mostly space enthusiasts. As a result, grasping some of the more difficult concepts of KSP came more easily. This made discussions on the forums a bit clearer and more filtered. People could jump right in to a discussion and understand what was going on without too much trouble, and the developer-community interactions were much easier since everyone was more familiar with the subject matter. Finally, we didn't have too many polarizing entities around to create divisions. There just wasn't enough stuff in KSP at the time to do that sort of thing. It was too simple to divide everyone.

Obviously, things have changed. Now, when I enter a thread I see numerous names I've never seen before, many of which have less than 50 posts. This isn't an insult to anyone who fits that bill, though. It just shows that we have an influx of players. But as a community grows, problems arise. The once close forum members get spread apart by newcomers, for one, and so the forum slowly seems less personal. An effect of this depersonalization is that the self-stabilizing effect of a close-knit community fades away. It's easier for people to be harsh when the user(s) they are angry with are completely unknown to them. And this is aggravated by controversial issues such as bugs in ambitious updates, user generated content such as mechjeb, and the moderation of an ever-growing community.

One thing about those three examples in particular is that they come from 3 different sources: The development process itself, the community, and those who watch over the community. It would be incorrect to paint one group as responsible for the current state of affairs. My take is that the original issue was that newcomers didn't have too much to guide them. The wiki was under constant assault from spammers and was often totally closed and in a state of total disarray. The original tutorials barely covered the bare bones, and although they have improved significantly, they still have a long way to go before effective at teaching everyone who wants to play. And so this presents new, not so space-oriented players with a problem. It's very difficult to learn and very difficult to find a good teacher, so what's left? One thing could be asking for more assists. Before maneuver nodes were added, there was much debate on how to handle this, and it could sometimes get heated. The addition of mechjeb into things only fueled the fire, and soon you had one end of the spectrum calling the other clueless, spoon-fed and idiotic, while that end in turn responded by claiming its attackers were elitist, dictatorial and opposed to fun. This, I feel, is the biggest divide in the KSP community. It's the smaller, older, more technical group versus the quickly growing, less experienced leisurely group. And because the latter is growing more quickly (since there simply are fewer space experts than there are laymen), the personality of the forum has changed markedly over KSP's two years since .7.3. It's simply not a given anymore that forum goers will be able to easily grasp and fully understand some concepts of the game and its development anymore, and so developer-community interaction breaks down. When that happens, the forum just gets even more crazy. People start shouting their ideas and wishes louder, hoping that someone hears them, for one thing. Arguments ensue. Fears that the game will go down a dark path spring up like no tomorrow. The forums become a generally hostile place. Moderation has to crack down, and so now things get even more tense. It just keeps spiraling downwards until people start to avoid the place. I don't personally think that the forums are beyond saving yet, though. But it requires some work.

First, the users need to pitch in. Simple things like searching for something before posting, listening to an argument and understanding it before responding, and emotionally detaching oneself from problems or suggestions are big things. The first point stops you from annoying everyone with an idea that has been brought up and put down a thousand times, the second makes sure you have a good, intelligent discussion and don't just make projections, and the third will prevent you from sounding "entitled" as some people would say. Then, the moderators and the community team as a whole need to help, too. Being curt and unprofessional are the biggest no-nos I can think of here. A model for what's RIGHT in my opinion would be sal_vager; I don't think I've ever seen him do a forum goer wrong when assessing an issue. Another thing is closing threads - I think this needs to be treated as more of a nuclear option than the first response to intense discussions. Individual offenders should be picked out first and warned on a private basis, and if that fails, punishment on a private basis should follow, but the thread, as long as it stays on topic or is not a repeat of some sort, should stay open until it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is simply a breeding ground for wrongdoings. I think that just these two things would allow for amazing headway between the users and moderators. The next thing I would say should be on the list of things in need of review for the team is the stream. It's probably one of the best ways to get information from the devs to the users, and so it definitely needs to be up to par. And unfortunately, I personally do not feel that it is, and I would venture to guess that others think the same. BEfore Damion left, I felt like it was not what it could be, but at least functional and capable of providing information to viewers. But after his resignation, it's fallen on rough times. Admittedly, any transition is a bit difficult, and it being timed near the .20 release only worsened things. But I don't think it was handled well, honestly - at least the dev and community streams. I DO think the idea of having prominent streamers having time on the air on the channel is good. But back to the dev and community streams, while I know that Skunky has been an important part of KSP for a long, long, loooooonnnng time, and that he is well liked by many, with all due respect and courtesy I would feel better with someone else in the dev streams. There was a lack of decorum of sorts I felt which went unchallenged in the stream, but in the chat, similar things were cracked down on. Obviously, as one of the Captain's first streams, it's impossible to expect perfection. But I still think that the dev and community streams need to be seriously restructured in the wake of Damion's departure, as simply transitioning the duties to Capt'n Skunky has been rocky. If the streams can be improved and the impression of a repressive moderation team can be lifted though, I think everything will be on the right track. Actually, just one more thing.

Finally, there is the development process itself. Since .7.3, we as a community have witnessed KSP evolve from its simple, small and bare-bones beginnings into a complex, massive and meaty game, thanks to the hard work of a dedicated development team that is striving to create a very rare type of game. Much praise is deserved for what has been added over the years. But while many things have been done to try and keep communication and interaction alive within such a large community, given the current state of the forums I think that there still is work to be done. But I do not think that the answer lies in more frequent dev blogs and streams - I think those just need more regulation. What I would do personally is make the tutorial system more robust, since given the current situation, the How To section, wiki and current tutorials aren't getting the job done. There are of course many other features that are of high priority, but I feel that tutorials need to be just as high as those too, because if the tutorials teach players well, the community is once again capable of easily grasping and understanding the issues at hand, like in ye olde times of the forums. Once that happens, it's very easy for devs and players to interact and understand each other and it's actually possible to cut down on the amount of communication because less is more when people know what you're saying. And that frees up time from tough schedules.

The forums are definitely in a tough situation right now. There's no one magic solution. If better tutorials are in place but players don't take advantage of them, then it's as if they never changed. If they do take advantage of them but then the forums are mismanaged, it's still just as hard to get points across. But despite this, I feel it's possible to fix the forums given how much they have been through over the years. It'll take more than struts, but it's by no means unachievable.

[MR4Y]

-snip-

As for forum behavior, I wouldn't say it's going to be like Minecraft, but definetely some people shield the developers way too much sometimes. Even the alpha argument doesn't have to be said by anyone from the dev team, taking in consideration how often it is used to make people that are complaining stop. Which, as pointed in other post, demotivates people from reporting bugs, since "It's an alpha release and bugs are expected", which sounds like a lousy excuse.

As for complaints, maybe the game shouldn't had gone to Steam so early? Considering how well estabilished the platform is and the huge amount of people that use it, as well as the amount of full games, both indie and from big publishers, in there that are almost at full release or still in Greenlight state but fully functional, KSP would end up with high expectations. People waiting for a full fledged game will find bugs, then complain and be told off by people with the whole alpha argument. Not only that, the Steam version has bug exclusive to that version as well, which makes matters worse. Maybe KSP should had evolved to at least beta state before going to Steam instead?

One thing that often happens is misinterpretation between people. Not bringing examples, but we all know that nobody really reads what someone else has to say entirely, before making assumptions and answering back, interpreting what was said in the most convenient way for themselves instead. I recall seeing someone complaining about devs moving out of the forum to post things, using blogs and other things instead, which in part ended up alienating part of the userbase (I think), since not everyone accompanies(or want to) the dev blogs and people that do seem to think their opinions are more entitled than the rest.

Edited May 29, 2013 by KasperVld

[AmpsterMan]

due to the nature of this game it does attract a subset of the populace with poor social skills, which could stem from any number of reasons really, but it leads to people ignoring the "spirit" of posts at times in favor of an overtly guileless, by the letter interpretation.

I think one of the reasons that miscommunicatoin happens so often in discussion forums is due to the fact that communication via text is only fruitful when both parties (ie, the reader and the writer) are skilled in putting their thoughts to word and putting other's words to thought. This process could be sabotaged by an inexperience with the language the discussion is being held in as well as with a general lack of proficiency in speaking through text (I include myself in this category). Coupled with the fact that humans tend to exaggerate and share their thoughts faster than they come up with them, much misunderstanding can occur (I include myself here as well.)

I also think what he meant is that the ISS is "stationary" in the sense that it doesn't shake itself to pieces when you dock with it and one doesn't try to fly it to other SOIs like one might try in KSP. I think that is what Aramcheck means by the spirit of his post.

Edited May 29, 2013 by AmpsterMan

[Sputnik-1]

snip.

Although I did not read this (as it's a huge block of text), I did skim over it and you have some very nice points.

Mind making a tl;dr version?

[OtherDalfite]

-snip-

You'd be surprised to know that actually, I HAVE spoken with a mod about this.

Edited May 29, 2013 by KasperVld

[KasperVld]

A lot of content in that thread is borderline sexual and would definitely get you banned if you posted them as humans, as if I recall correctly someone was banned for posting two fully clothed human girls kissing once.

The person in question didn't get banned for posting that image. And in any case there is still a difference between what some could interpret as sexually suggestive and an explicit sexual act.

[whatisthisidonteven]

Yes, I know what furries are. I'm not into it, so I don't read the thread. If you have a problem with it, your remedy is to PM a mod, who will explain the forum team's reasoning on the question. Have you done that, or would you rather just self-rightesouly complain about it?

Yes, I regret the font thing, but since my last Windows upgrade, I have a great deal of trouble formatting posts on this forum. You should have seen what it looked like BEFORE I tried to fix it. That being said, how about responding to my entirely readable thoughts rather than carping about picayune details like fonts?

-snip-

And yes, I (along with others) have asked the mods what their reasoning on allowing furry discussion on the forums is - We have never really got a real answer.

Edited May 29, 2013 by KasperVld

[MR4Y]

Can you just speak without the special snowflake font stuff? It'd be much appreciated as it makes the thread a lot easier on everyone's eyes.

And yes, I (along with others) have asked the mods what their reasoning on allowing furry discussion on the forums is - We have never got a real answer.

That would be considered taboo by most, hence not worth mentioning. Ye old mask there.

[Spatzimaus]

Trying to write a universal loop for god knows what people will subject it too, is what I would consider HARD science. So hard in-fact, that makers of such devices for RC control always include a gain setting. I.E. THEY CAN'T DO IT EITHER.

It's most definitely not "hard" science, it's simply complex. The two are not interchangeable; most of this sort of thing is governed by the basic equations of physics, just in ways that are too complex for a person to resolve in their head.

RC control designers are working in the real world. The limiting factor is information; how can the RC controller know how much it needs to turn, when it lacks the sensors to precisely evaluate the forces involved? Even if it had more detailed sensors, there'd still be the fundamental issue of doing the calculations and performing the actions needed in an acceptable timeframe (i.e., before the instability causes a crash).

NASA also functions in the real world, but they've got supercomputers running very detailed physical simulations to predict complex behaviors. NASA's rockets don't have a simple "gain" setting, and they don't wobble like that, because the systems are designed to make small adjustments as needed. (Since the '50s, I mean; the first-generation rockets didn't have this sort of computer control, and so were very unstable, but since then we've almost never seen these sorts of instabilities.)

KSP is not the real world. The simulation already knows EXACTLY how much force is necessary to hold the rocket steady, because it calculated that force to determine how much the rocket would rotate sans ASAS. Your computer, by definition, knows everything important to the calculation. So no, I don't believe it's impossible for KSP's stabilization to use something more intelligent than the current setup, and it'd be far closer to the NASA reality than anything we have now.

[KasperVld]

And yes, I (along with others) have asked the mods what their reasoning on allowing furry discussion on the forums is - We have never really got a real answer.

Well, we are nothing if we are not cooporative, I'll send you a nice message soon. May I ask who you sent your questions to prior to this?

[Payload]

Which, as pointed in other post, demotivates people from reporting bugs, since "It's an alpha release and bugs are expected", which sounds like a lousy excuse.

Let me just stop right there. That isn't a "Lousy excuse" as you so eloquently put it. It's 100% the unanimous truth. I'm sorry that someone might expect an alpha game to be bug free. That makes that person the fallible party here. That said, the people who will make useful bug reports already know this. They don't need to be told and they are also not the ones getting threads locked.

If your only report is this is broken/doesn't work right Etc. Then that is information that, for all intents and purposes, is useless. Furthermore, if you have any MODs installed, any report you might make about the game other than the functionality of the MOD system it self, is void.

[KasperVld]

People, the thread was doing fine but we're really starting to drift off-topic and the posts are becoming borderline insulting now. I ask of you to keep things civil or else it will have to be closed.

[whatisthisidonteven]

Well, we are nothing if we are not cooporative, I'll send you a nice message soon. May I ask who you sent your questions to prior to this?

People like N3X15 and Maxmaps

-snip-

Edited May 29, 2013 by KasperVld

[roosterr]

To the Devs:

I am a 43 year old, long-time gamer (mostly sim types), well educated, with hobbies that surround aerospace and engineering. So coming from someone in that demographic, I would like to tell the devs, "you guys are doing it right!". I appreciate the features that keep it real, and the order in which they are presented. I am also fine with the rate at which the upgrades come out. I am also a web developer and understand the project/product release scenarios and having to please all of the people all of the time.

I would say, "dont change a thing" Thanks for the last year of my edutainment.

[KasperVld]

Okay, we're back. Please no more discussions about the furry topics, a moderator making a mistake about an orbit and no more personal attacks. Any person violating these simple terms and/or the forum rules will be infracted for it from here on out.

If you have a problem with a specific post, report it.

Edited May 29, 2013 by KasperVld

[hoojiwana]

What are your thoughts on the topic Kasper? From the point of view of a moderator, you would see a completely different side of the forum than the rest of us.

[Sputnik-1]

Thanks for tidying up.