[PLUGIN, PARTS, Development] [0.20+][0.21+] tek Industries Science v0.4.1

[King Jareth]

You can restrict what can be picked up by the code, you add it to the parts you want to be grabbable.

I was rambling about my own problem where I want some things to be moveable in EVA but only really in space.

Sorry for clogging the thread.

[Moon Goddess]

Why not simply put a flat weight restriction? Only part weighting 0.1 of whatever weight unit Kerbals use, or less can be picked up and carried. So, sample container - yes. Entire bay - heck, no.

Well that was the intent... but I think King Jareth's idea was that empty sample container yes, full sample container no.

EDIT: Oh nevermind I missunderstood then. Carry on.

[Moon Goddess]

Of course I'd like. Have a look, and see what you can come up with. I'd be happy to integrate it, if we can get it working

Ok did a quick test, the code I posted above does create a bay which will hold sampleboxes and nothing else, and sample boxes which can only be placed in sample bays.

[John Nowak]

Sure, this is the plan, with regards Mission Controller. Not sure about a telescope, as I believe this exists in another mod, and I don't really want to step on his toes. My mod is also more focussed towards samples/geology, rather than "remote sensing". That being said, I'd love to have a camera mod, or a scanner; something along the lines of MapSat or Kethane (which I understand can now detect anything, if modded to do so), but, these are beyond what I can do at this point. I do have Kethane in the back of my mind, just not sure how it could be integrated at this point.

Gotcha -- I was sort of thinking of thinking out loud. The mission control pack is interesting to me because it "imposes" a bit of order on the sandbox, and some of those missions might legitimately be science-based. But I suppose this is really something I should suggest over there...

This is not a bad idea. I was originally planning a % system, because mining was to be a part. But, with Kethane being improved, I decided it was pointless trying to compete on this front, and frankly, I did not have a good idea what to do next. This scoring system is a great idea! I shall enter it on the github tracker. I totally agree with scoring points based on grabbing samples from dispersed areas, as it fits perfectly with using unmanned rovers (and potentially EVA) sample collection.

Idea added to github tracker: Science Points tracking: feel free to add comments.

Thanks! I'll see about getting an account there.

If you can keep track of the positions where each sample was taken, then perhaps the "score" of a new sample could be set to 1 or the ln of the distance to the nearest previously-taken sample, whichever is greater. The first sample from a body always scores 10. Bringing back 10 samples from the same square meter is a significant accomplishment (scoring 19 for a first lander) but a rover able to grab ten samples in a straight line 100 meters long would score 30.

Next, imagine a long list of Potentially Significant Discoveries for each type of sample taken on each body. "This rock on the Mun came from Kerbin, possibly thrown here by whatever made the enormous impact crater!" Then dole them out as the Science Points for each body goes up.

That same sort of logic could be applied to other science-based mods, potentially.

Anyway, just some first thoughts.

[King Jareth]

This could be fudged, I think, if samples were a Kethane mod based resource. Each planet having multiple deposits but with a very low amount per deposit so you'd very quickly deplete an area and have to move to another to get more useful samples.

It'd mean requiring another mod though (says the man constantly pimping other mods) and I think Teks happy coding his own stuff right now which I can totally understand.

RE Misson Commander...er... missions, one of the mission goals can be resource based so it'd be easy to make a mission to collect x amount or Mun rock or whatever either maned or remote and/or include a land on Kerbal finishing goal.

Edited June 26, 2013 by King Jareth

[Scotius]

Why not make it simpler? Returning/analysing samples from Mun and Minmus gives you small amount of Science Points. Duna/Ike/Gilly a bit more. Dres and smaller Jool moons even more. Laythe, Tylo, Eeloo - another increase in amount of SP. Eve and Moho - maximum points possible. If you want to differentiate even further, go with latitude coordinates. Polar orbits cost a lot of dV, so bringing samples from polar regions should reward you with more SC than sampling near the equator. If you want even more difficulty set up a timer. For example: after taking a mission to bring back samples from Duna you will be given, say - 2 years to do that. If you exceed the time amount of points will be cut down. If you make it faster you will get bonus points fo the effort.

[John Nowak]

Why not make it simpler? Returning/analysing samples from Mun and Minmus gives you small amount of Science Points. Duna/Ike/Gilly a bit more.

Why would a sample from Mars have more scientific value than one from the Moon?

Right now, it's only because we have lunar samples.

[John Nowak]

This could be fudged, I think, if samples were a Kethane mod based resource. Each planet having multiple deposits but with a very low amount per deposit so you'd very quickly deplete an area and have to move to another to get more useful samples.

That might be a better way of handling it, especially if it's possible to tweak the values of the samples returned based on the terrain. I've it claimed that the most interesting geology targets are also the places where it's most difficult to land, which is an argument for rovers.

I just wonder, though -- does that mean there would be places between the deposits where the science value is effectively zero? I'm not a scientist at all, but it seems to me there's always the chance of stumbling across a wildcard just about anywhere. You're digging in a dry riverbed that's been so heavily worked you can see the footprints of other archaeologists, and bang, you hit Lucy.

RE Misson Commander...er... missions, one of the mission goals can be resource based so it'd be easy to make a mission to collect x amount or Mun rock or whatever either maned or remote and/or include a land on Kerbal finishing goal.

Yeah, that does sound like a good way of handling it...

[Moon Goddess]

Moon Goddess' thoughts on Sample Collection and analysis.

Naturally these are simply suggestions feel free to ignore me completely

Proposal: make Sample Containers exchangeable between ships by EVA.

For models:

SampleBoxBay (Needs new name): This is a very simple part probably a box with one open side, or flat tray with sides.

Sample Boxes that fit into the Bay: RockBox, LiquidTank, AtmoTank: Each of these would use the KAS plugin (assuming we could get permission) to be carried by EVA. They could only be attached into a bay or dropped, not placed anywhere like most KAS parts.

Code: KAS pluggin.

In a way this proposal is simply a much more limited system of nothe's KASPAR system, and might be made compatible.

Proposal: Separate Analysis from Sample Storage.

New Modeled part. Either 1 analyser or 3 one for each state of matter.

code: Analyser would have a number of slots, when the slots are used they would not work anymore. Slots could be cleared during EVA or would be automatically cleared after [time] if attached to a manned spacecraft. Perhaps 1 slot per hour?

Proposal: Seperate sample collectors for states of matter

Models: In addition to the wonderful arm seen already in this thread, I'm thinking a air compressor, and a liquid pump possibly with a hose.

Code: No code.

Proposal: Sample Collection from EVA

All Code:

Add resource storage to EVA'd Kerbals and a right click menu option to collect sample, then add right click functionality on sample containers to allow the transfer of these resources to the container.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Moon Goddess

[Scotius]

I don't think multiplying parts is good idea MG. Sure, samplers should work only for one type each, and storage containers shouldn't be able to hold rocks, liquids and gases at once. But it will add 6 parts to every lander or probe, or force you to send three probes instead of one. Adding three types of analyzers would bump parts count by 9 - and now we are running into trivial problem of available space on the probe. And we need to share this space with landing legs, RCS blocks, solar panels, batteries and so on and so on. So, i think at least analyser should be left as one part, just bigger and heavier than rest.

[Moon Goddess]

Well there are already separate storage parts for solid liquid and gas so that's not really a change there.

But I'm not talking about adding 9 parts to every lander... since you already have to land on land to get solids and land in liquid to get liquid then obviously you'd never put both of those parts on the same lander. Seems logical to me you'd have a mission to collect atmosphere, and a separate mission to collect solid.

So I'm talking about 4 (you're forgetting the bay) parts on each lander for analysis (8 if you wanted to do atmo as well as with you landed on, but I see that being done just by aerobraking). I'm sure more of Curiosity is devoted to analysis than that.

[King Jareth]

Ive been watching a lot of Curosity videos recently so I can add some numbers if you want. The rover weighs 900lbs with 90 being science equipment.

Also when I was looking for inspiration for an atmosphere sampler Curiosities looked really boring.

Edited June 27, 2013 by King Jareth

[Farnsworth]

WIP of sample analysis oven (fully animated, no textures). Suggestions, comments, and crits welcome.

[tek_604]

Well there are already separate storage parts for solid liquid and gas so that's not really a change there.

But I'm not talking about adding 9 parts to every lander... since you already have to land on land to get solids and land in liquid to get liquid then obviously you'd never put both of those parts on the same lander. Seems logical to me you'd have a mission to collect atmosphere, and a separate mission to collect solid.

So I'm talking about 4 (you're forgetting the bay) parts on each lander for analysis (8 if you wanted to do atmo as well as with you landed on, but I see that being done just by aerobraking). I'm sure more of Curiosity is devoted to analysis than that.

OK, I think the idea is pretty good actually. A single bay, which in principle, can send the sample, gathered via EVA, to the relevant analyser. In fact, for this, it would probably be better to have the analyser able to work with all the resource types, and probably built into the bay, if possible. Keeps the part numbers down, and makes it easy to work with? Right, or not?

[tek_604]

Also when I was looking for inspiration for an atmosphere sampler Curiosities looked really boring.

Except for the fancy drill, and lazor, modern science is pretty boring really Thats why I would suggest trying to think like a Kerbal... Or more precisely, a Kerbal scientist.

[tek_604]

WIP of sample analysis oven (fully animated, no textures). Suggestions, comments, and crits welcome.

<snipped the image>

Personally, I think it looks pretty cool. I'll leave it down to you parts guys to work out how it might fit with the other parts that are being developed. Probably best to do that via PM, if possible.

Edited June 28, 2013 by tek_604
Snipped the image, then I broke the quote. What an idiot.

[Scotius]

Except for the fancy drill, and lazor, modern science is pretty boring really Thats why I would suggest trying to think like a Kerbal... Or more precisely, a Kerbal scientist.

Let's stick some explosives in there and see what happens I like that tray thingy, It's radially attached, right? What about making cylindrical, inline version for probes?

[Ikkaku]

Atmosphere collection -- I'd think something with an animated bellows or accordian/ventilator pump. Maybe blowing up balloons that are chucked in the container (beats having a Kerbal trying to inhale the atmosphere and blow it into a container on EVA).

Edit: Or a bicycle pump for EVA atmos?

Edited June 29, 2013 by Ikkaku

[Moon Goddess]

I don't know about the balloons but a machine driven accordian pump to suck in atmo sounds very very kerbal.

[Scotius]

Someone mentioned a vacuum cleaner for atmospheric samples . I have another idea: huge (or small) syringe for liquid samples. On the end of robotic arm, with animated piston and all the works

[sumghai]

Looking great so far, tek_604 - the idea of sample collection and return mission has great potential as it give players setting up planetary space stations and outposts actual goals to accomplish.

I recently wrote a (long) post on sample collection/analysis/return in general and how the former could be interwined with resource extraction/processing/storage - so that I'm not derailing the current discussion, I'll just leave the following link for people who are interested to read at their own pleasure:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/38087-Musings-on-Resources-and-Sample-Collection-Analysis-Return

In particular, I'd like to point out the specific idea that sample return to Kerbin should only be required if a sample contains an unknown or rare compound - otherwise, in-situ analysis and reporting of results will suffice for more common substances.

[tek_604]

First, thanks to sumghai, for pointing out his thread, we'll check it out sometime, and see what we can pick from it (a lot I am sure!).

So, now the weekend is upon us, I've got the weekend food shopping done, and am currently making myself deaf listening to my new Philly remix CDs at full blast with headphones, I will start some work on the mod.

This week has seen some pretty good progress on ideas and parts, especially when using the KAS system. I'll be testing some today.

I will also start work on the code for the Orbital Laboratory. For this, I will need to detect when a sample return package is available, with resources. Detection will happen on docking, and then make the analysis available through the usual context menu for the module. So, something new

This is how it looks in the VAB: http://i.imgur.com/lGBlrfU.png

We know that 0.21 is due for release soon, so we can expect some changes, and as soon as it hits steam, I'll produce a recompiled version (against the 0.21 binaries). It will also be interesting to see what it brings for this mod.

[Scotius]

I really hope we will get crew specialisations with astronaut management update. Even if it's only along the lines of Pilot, Engineer and Scientist.

[John Nowak]

I don't know about the balloons but a machine driven accordian pump to suck in atmo sounds very very kerbal.

Does it? I think the humorous aspects of the game seem to focus on the kerbals themselves -- apart from the descriptions of the parts, they tend to look and work pretty much the same as "real world" systems. For example, I haven't seen a big slowly-spinning wind-up key on a power source for rovers, for example.

Still, I'm sure it'll look neat.

Of course, there is that reel-to-reel look rocked by one of the Flight Engineer parts... and yeah, bellows would be amusing.

Edited June 30, 2013 by John Nowak
Forgot about Flight Engineer

[John Nowak]

I really hope we will get crew specialisations with astronaut management update. Even if it's only along the lines of Pilot, Engineer and Scientist.

That could be very interesting. I'd love to see more RPG elements to the game, with individualized Kerbal models and such. I'd really like to be in a position where I have to decide between using my EVA specialist or giving someone else more experience in EVA.

The thing is that role-playing games tend to use attributes or stats for abstracted actions. In a tabletop game, you have "gun skills" because the player isn't actually aiming the weapon; in video game shooters you don't because the player really is aiming -- instead, avatars progress by unlocking new capabilities.

So a general "Fix Things" skill can be abstracted, and a "Science" skill used to operate equipment (and more importantly, perhaps, find significant samples on EVA) would be easy to add to the game.

I'm not sure about "Pilot" skill, though. How would that be used in game? Maybe to get a dock once the player's touched docking ports?