[PLUGIN, PARTS, Development] [0.20+][0.21+] tek Industries Science v0.4.1

[Scotius]

Just use a powerful laser (Sunbeam mod?) and zap the the sucker - just like Curiosity is currently doing on Mars Then you can spectrograph all you want.

Anyways, i'm sure you guys already read newest Word of God(vester)? No resources in new update (again ). So - there is both time and space for a resource mod made seriously. Tek, anytime you want to bounce off ideas, i'm at your disposal (Unless i'm at work )

[Mihara]

If asteroids are added to the game, then we could do it.

And a followup. Apparently, it's when asteroids are added, rather than if. See this post regarding API functions found in 0.20 relating to an object called ProceduralAsteroid...

[tek_604]

Ah, I love the sunbeam mod. Use it for getting debris out of LKO Considering I haven't got a manned program yet, but I'm able to launch SDI satellites to blast dead objects... haha

Anyway, I think I now have a rough idea on the different types of mission that need to be done, and how they would effect the mining operations. Well, actually, the collection (mining, gas extraction) will always run at 100% efficiency (we can assume Kerbals somehow got this right after several thousand years of civilization!), but, it will affect the efficiency of turning rock into resources. I sketched out the "mission ladder" idea a couple of posts ago (#49), and this morning, worked out a rough plan for how these missions would affect efficiency. The first time you mount one of these successfully, you'll get quite a large boost, but, even if you do all of them, you will still only be at 50%. In order to get to 100%, you'd need to keep sampling, landing, sample returns, whatever you're most comfortable with (they are "rated" for simplicity, so going for your nth manned sample mission, which is quite complex, would give you a bigger boost than yet another small lander you can launch in your sleep haha). Come to think of it, I should add a cap also, so that you can't get to 100% by launching a load of small landers. hmm

The next thing I will do is work on a spectrograph type device. This will tell you what %'s of elements are contained within that type of rock (these values will be hardcoded per body, not random, at least at first). There will be two versions:

1) Small: suitable for small landers/rovers. Will have a limit on the number of samples you can study ("Ovens"), and in order for a successful sampling, you must use all the Ovens.

2) Large: for manned missions. Will come as part of a pod (most likely - I'll probably just borrow one from stock for now), and will require Kerbals to operate. No limit to the number of samples, but a certain amount of resources should be analysed for a successful sampling. Once this limit is reached, doing more will do nothing for boosting efficiency; you'll have to launch another mission.

But, before anyone gets too excited, this first version will only be a text based output window, no fancy graphing windows. Remember, what I want to do is get functionality out first, with crappy models, no animations. Get the fundementals right, and everything else is just fluff. If nobody has realised yet, I am a software developer by trade, and this is the kind of approach we take when developing tools in house. We have very few GUI tools, but, because we got the fundementals right, we could implement them if we wanted (and had time haha).

Something else I want to do with the next version will be to see how I can save variables to the save game, and keep track of them in memory as you play. This part is kinda crucial to the whole thing, so working this out is a priority, even if it does nothing special at this point.

Don't forget, keep thinking, keep on putting ideas forward. And, keep being patient. We will get there in the end

[tek_604]

And a followup. Apparently, it's when asteroids are added, rather than if. See this post regarding API functions found in 0.20 relating to an object called ProceduralAsteroid...

Ah, yes, I did see this a couple of days ago, but forgot. Asteroids will be cool when they come. Shouldn't be so difficult to roll these into this mod actually; would need to develop a sample return package for asteroids, which would (eventually) include a gun to get the sample. I guess that would satisfy you guys?!

Probably only be one type of available element per asteroid also. Don't know really, just throwing ideas out there!

Edited June 5, 2013 by tek_604
100th post! w00t!

[Scotius]

I like the idea of hardcoded percentage. For example: it's a bit unrealistic to expect a lot of water on Mun, Ike and similiar bodies. On the other hand Minmus, Vall and Eeloo should contain a lot of it (if the white stuff is ice, devs really should come clean about this one day). Similiar thing with gases (non atmospheric) - they should be abundant only far away from Kerbol - in Jool system, Eeloo etc. Mining for gases in inner system should be less effective (but not impossible, mind you). If you could give us a rough list of elements you have in mind, and what is what (gas, metal, liquid etc.) ee could brain-storm something both plausible and useful.

Oh, BTW. This might be interesting, and shave some workload. Some of this stuff looks ideal for sampling equipment.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/24762-0-19-Greebles-and-Doodads-development-thread-Taking-suggestions!?highlight=greebles

Edited June 5, 2013 by Scotius
Adding link.

[tek_604]

I like the idea of hardcoded percentage. For example: it's a bit unrealistic to expect a lot of water on Mun, Ike and similiar bodies. On the other hand Minmus, Vall and Eeloo should contain a lot of it (if the white stuff is ice, devs really should come clean about this one day). Similiar thing with gases (non atmospheric) - they should be abundant only far away from Kerbol - in Jool system, Eeloo etc. Mining for gases in inner system should be less effective (but not impossible, mind you). If you could give us a rough list of elements you have in mind, and what is what (gas, metal, liquid etc.) ee could brain-storm something both plausible and useful.

I agree with you on this, but... replayability. While I said it is hardcoded for now, in the future, the %s could drift between games. So while the elements present won't change, the relative %'s might. Have to see.

As for the table of elements. I did a little thinking, and came up with 5 gases, and 5 liquids, which could be potentially useful, with a couple of left field things thrown in for our Kerbs. Probably best to take a look at the github issue:

Define a table of elements

Oh, BTW. This might be interesting, and shave some workload. Some of this stuff looks ideal for sampling equipment.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/24762-0-19-Greebles-and-Doodads-development-thread-Taking-suggestions!?highlight=greebles

Thanks for the link. I'll keep track of it.

[tek_604]

Just a quick update: I started work last night on the second part of the framework, Sample Analysis. I'm starting with a modified version of the Mk1-2 Command Pod, which can now only hold 2 Kerbals, with the 3rd spot taken by the scientific equipment (although of course you can't see it yet, as I'm no modeller, and its the stock IVA). Did maybe 30 minutes work, got the part to load in the VAB, and set up the initial buttons and check for a Kerbal onboard, and got the module to load the correct class when in flight.

Will try to continue tonight, but, I'm working until 6pm tonight, due to a telecon with JPL, so probably won't get much done. Preferably, I'd like to get something released over the weekend.

[Scotius]

I'm so excited! Finally some more science stuff to play with in space Are you planning to make Sample Analyser as separate part in the future? It will allow for more elasticity in building landers and rovers.

[tek_604]

I'm so excited! Finally some more science stuff to play with in space Are you planning to make Sample Analyser as separate part in the future? It will allow for more elasticity in building landers and rovers.

Yes, there will be a smaller "black box" for landers/rovers. This was always in the plan, because you need to do a surface sampler with a lander/rover as part of the overall mission design I detailed before.

The reason why I started with the manned version is purely down to coding. I wanted to prove I could successfully inherit a SampleAnalysis base class, and have a MannedSampleAnalysis class. Basically, the analysis code will be the same in both cases, but, for the manned version, I need to add checks for Kerbals being on board, as well as other different aspects.

I plan to release both the manned and unmanned versions at the same time.

[Scotius]

Checking their Stupidity level perhaps? Stupid kerbals should analyse samples slower. Using Crew Manifest we could send only kerbonauts with low Stupidity on science missions - as it should be.

[tek_604]

Checking their Stupidity level perhaps? Stupid kerbals should analyse samples slower. Using Crew Manifest we could send only kerbonauts with low Stupidity on science missions - as it should be.

Great idea! Not sure if it can be done (I'd need to check the "developer documentation"), but, I've added it as a feature request:

Check Kerbal Stupidity level

[Mihara]

Check the bravery level too. Brave kerbals should collect samples faster.

[tek_604]

Check the bravery level too. Brave kerbals should collect samples faster.

haha well, you could also suggest that brave Kerbals could try to do things to shortcut the method, making mistakes. Ah man, this is getting complex. Will add a comment on the raised issue above to somehow make a determination also including bravery.

Except Jeb. Jeb would do everything x200 speed and 100% accurate every time

[Moon Goddess]

That's the BadAss flag. Kerbals have bravery level, stupidity level, and badS yes or no. Jeb always had the Badass flag.

Bravery at 50% should result in best time, high or lower values increase time proportionally. (being too brave can hurt you, as can too timid.)

Stupidity is a simple scale, the higher the stupidity, the slower they work.

BadS is computed last doubling whatever value you resulted from the other 2 if true.

[tek_604]

<snipped>

Thanks for the suggestion! Added to the github tracker issue as before. Seems like a good idea! But, a warning. This stuff won't make it into the first release of sample analysis.

As an update: just had a nice conversation with the guy making Mission Controller, and we're working out a way by which my plugin (and indeed any other) can interface with his plugin to make money from resource extraction. That means I don't have to code a damn thing for the money aspect of the game, his mod does it, and any mod can sell resources and make money to fund the space program.

This is a really nice little piece of news in my opinion. Too many mods all aiming in different directions, it will be nice to see some synergy coming from all our community efforts. One less thing for Squad to worry about.

[Scotius]

Oh, man...couple of weeks and fans will create our own version of career mode, resource system etc. We can already make our own asteroids, and i'm waiting for first mod adding new full-blown planets and moons. Looks like SQUAD created a monster...

[tek_604]

Oh, man...couple of weeks and fans will create our own version of career mode, resource system etc. We can already make our own asteroids, and i'm waiting for first mod adding new full-blown planets and moons. Looks like SQUAD created a monster...

This is what I wanted to do in the very long run, cause its obvious players want it. Just comments from you guys pushed me further than I had expected originally, and then I find Mission Controller... and then it all made sense. Just be patient. Keep your fingers crossed we can get the framework in place before Squad beats us to it

[tek_604]

OK, time for a Friday update, as I got home from work early (thinking about this mod too much!), and I feel like it.

First, the bad news... The next update will be a big one, and I am not sure it will go out this weekend.

Now the good news...

I am taking the step of going from what we have now (a very simple sample return), to implementing a system for science, followed by resource extraction & return to Kerbin. I've been speaking with nobody44, regarding his plugin (Mission Controller - take a look NOW!), and from talking with him, and working with him, I aim to bring resources to the table. Resources for cash, so you can continue your programs. Indeed, he has taken the great step of adding an interface, so that plugins like mine can send the Mission Controller money. My thanks go to him for that.

In addition, the series of missions required by this plugin to increase mining efficiency, are very likely to be added to his mod (we'll still need to agree this), so you can get rewarded for those missions also.

So, in a nutshell, using these two mods together will give you a much better experience, and one that I think everyone wants!

*phew* now, time to get cracking.

[Weatherman159]

We could still do the missions without his plugin, right? I mean, the whole chain of increasing efficiency and so on. I for one don't want to be railroaded into specific missions by a plugin, I want to plan them myself.

[tek_604]

We could still do the missions without his plugin, right? I mean, the whole chain of increasing efficiency and so on. I for one don't want to be railroaded into specific missions by a plugin, I want to plan them myself.

Yes. You will be able to run our plugins independently.

It just happens that if you play with both, you'll get the added benefit of his mission controller framework, and my resource framework. Just like a career mode

[Scotius]

Good news indeed Now question: how we are going to store mined resources? Standard tanks like kethane? I'm asking because i've just read nothke's thread about his KASPAR mod, and those modular cargo containers looks like excellent way to carry stuff around, customise payload of our future landers/miners and provide more functionality to EVA. We could detach containers from the ship, attach them to station, take empty ones and head back to the mining site for more stuff. Of course if there will be some sort of conversion process for stuff other than fuel.

[Moon Goddess]

If someone doesn't beat me too it I will be making parts to use this mod with KASPAR mod, probably the moment there is a KASPAR mod to work with

[tek_604]

Good news indeed Now question: how we are going to store mined resources? Standard tanks like kethane? I'm asking because i've just read nothke's thread about his KASPAR mod, and those modular cargo containers looks like excellent way to carry stuff around, customise payload of our future landers/miners and provide more functionality to EVA. We could detach containers from the ship, attach them to station, take empty ones and head back to the mining site for more stuff. Of course if there will be some sort of conversion process for stuff other than fuel.

The problem is, there really is no current need for metals, past selling them to fund more launches (assuming you're using somehing like MC, which I think I've mentioned before ). So, once mined, just return them to Kerbin for sale.

Fuels though, will work in a similar way to how the Kethane mod does now. Kethane will be a resource in this mod, by name only. The only fancy thing I will let you do, that Kethane doesn't is... extract it from Jool, and maybe one other place, but I'll keep that a secret for now When it comes to handling Kethane conversion, I don't really want to step on the original author's toes, so in order to mine Kethane as it is now, and convert it to fuel (even from the Kethane you grab from Jool), it would be best if you used the Kethane mod.

That being said, this does leave the conventional fuel sources; liquidizer, oxidizer, xenon & mono. These will all be convertable from gathered resources.

I have also considered a non-conventional fuel also, for use with the LV-N. But, I'm not sure if I want to touch that, even if it would make it more realistic.

If someone doesn't beat me too it I will be making parts to use this mod with KASPAR mod, probably the moment there is a KASPAR mod to work with

Great, go for it! If you want to provide the files as part of the final mod, let me know.

And a quick update on my progress. I spent maybe 6 hours on it today, and have put into place the basic blocks for extending the whole thing into a usable resource system. I had hoped to make some more progress, and although I am a coder by trade, C# can be a little... umm... strange. I also added some nicer feedback on screen, specifically for sample return. When a sample is returned to Kerbin, a nice message appears on screen, and the resource system efficiency gets updated.

Tomorrow, I hope to get some file saving/loading done. I was hoping to be able to do this to persistent, but it seems to be able to save to persistent, you need to inherit PartModule, which the resource system doesn't. If anyone knows how to do this, let me know.

And I want to thank you all again for your support.

[Scotius]

Yeah, i figured out there is not much use for anything but fuel now. Still, it would be kinda funny to pump 10 metric tons of iron or platinium into fuel tank lookalikes. Silos and ground raw material - i know, those exist but still. Anyways, i hope development of kerbal stats plugin progresses just as nicely...because my new orbital tug is piloted by freaking genius He does have about 60% of Bravery, and his Stupidity is practically nonexistant Prime candidate to lead all discovery and sampling missions *is proud of Thompbin*

[lyndonguitar]

I have a suggestion, to have a real purpose other than just roleplaying and refueling. Why don't you integrate it with the "Mission Controller" mod, so you can sell those samples for huge lumps of cash back on Kerbin. you will have to contact the mod dev for this one.

Edited June 9, 2013 by lyndonguitar