[PLUGIN, PARTS, Development] [0.20+][0.21+] tek Industries Science v0.4.1

[Camacha]

This looks like a promising mod. It seems to need some polishing, but I like this a lot more than the somewhat unrealistic Kethane mods.

[Mihara]

Damn, you got me Still, what else will we find? Who knows...

Most probably, we will find that while Mun may not be made of cheese, Minmus might be. :-)

[Scotius]

Mmmm...cheese...*snaps back to reality* Oh, no no no. Ice, gentlemen. We should lobby for lots of ice on Minmus. Then we could turn this moon into giant fuel/consummables factory conveniently parked on Kerbin's doorstep Anyways, back on topic. I like design for atmospheric sampler. It can also be used for liquids, methinks. But: could it be possible to make some 0.625 m sized cyllinders for the probes? We could sample smaller moons before sending kerballed landers there. Current parts are bit too big and power hungry to be useful - maybe probe parts could use less electricity while working slower?

[tek_604]

But: could it be possible to make some 0.625 m sized cyllinders for the probes? We could sample smaller moons before sending kerballed landers there. Current parts are bit too big and power hungry to be useful - maybe probe parts could use less electricity while working slower?

I just got to the office, but, I have been giving this some idle thought also. I'm not very happy with the cubes as they are, and was thinking of changing them to cylinders, like tanks. I'll give it a go tonight. I want to balance out the amount you can get also... Currently, all sample packages can collect 100 units. What I'm thinking, is to have smaller units, for mounting on the side of smaller probes, and then stackable tank-like units for bigger things, and so on. I'll give it some thought.

And yes, I know they are also power hungry. In a way, they are meant to be. Might need some tweaking though. In the end, its a case of trading off your power to collecting samples, and making sure you don't kill your probe while collecting, and this is a challenge I'd personally like to keep. This isn't meant to be too easy.

Oh, missed your last point... using less electricity while working slower. Good idea. Maybe for the smaller units this makes more sense.

Edit: parts overhaul now in github tracker Parts overhaul

Edited June 3, 2013 by tek_604
Added final comment, added github link

[rhoark]

Take a look at these containers: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/33754-HexCans-Standardized-Resource-Canisters

[Moon Goddess]

Will this always be different parts per planet? Makes most sense to me to simply have gas sampling container, and a scoop part. liquid sample container, and a pump, and a solid container and a drill.

I tried making you a drill but I failed miserably at animations.

[tek_604]

Will this always be different parts per planet? Makes most sense to me to simply have gas sampling container, and a scoop part. liquid sample container, and a pump, and a solid container and a drill.

I tried making you a drill but I failed miserably at animations.

It will be different parts per planet. The reason why we have different sampling packages is because the sample resources (xRock etc), will be broken down into their elements when going in for analysis. I've only just written down a simple table of elements containing 10 elements (for starters). If you wish, have a look at the github issues for a sneak peek at what's planned...!

Thanks for having a go at a drill. There is no rush, this is a learning experience for me, just as it (may be) for you also, so don't sweat over it too much. Things like drills/pumps/scoops are all nice added features that can be added to the core as and when they are ready.

[tek_604]

Take a look at these containers: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/33754-HexCans-Standardized-Resource-Canisters

Thanks for the heads-up on these. Very nice looking! I'll think seriously hard about implementing these in a future version.

[Mihara]

I've only just written down a simple table of elements containing 10 elements (for starters).

There actually is a semi-canonical one, at least, I'm pretty sure the data originally comes from the developers.

Includes cute things like Propellium, Oxium, Nitronite, Blutonium... Propellium makes it pretty clear their universe is not obliged to follow the physics of ours and is only superficially similar.

[tek_604]

Damn! Thanks for that resource map. Looks like I'm gonna have to give this some more thought then...

Edited June 3, 2013 by tek_604
Made a proper reply.

[Moon Goddess]

Don't consider that 100% canon thought, the dev's have already stated, that all those brown square processing modules will be reduced to 2, a large and a small.

I'm afraid the stock resources will look a lot closer to Kethane than what we see in that chart. Something that disappoints me greatly.

[Mihara]

I'm afraid the stock resources will look a lot closer to Kethane than what we see in that chart. Something that disappoints me greatly.

Seeing Kethane as a testing ground for a feature idea, on one hand, it has been proven to be playable and enjoyable as it is. On another, Kethane in particular has been constantly stunted in it's development by "Why develop more resource features when resources are actually coming in the next stock version" mentality.

On yet another hand, there are no substances we treat as consumables other than fuels, so there's no need for it to be significantly more complex -- if there were a seriously widespread life support mod, there would be a call for much more advanced resource harvesting to go with it, and so far, life support mods seem to have been a constant feature in the background, but none of them has yet become a de-facto standard like Kethane.

[tek_604]

The thing I've been thinking about just today, is that there really is no synergy between these kinds of mods. It would be better, in mu opinion, if Kethane worked with say, MapSat, and indeed, the mod I am doing now. Basically, I'm kinda putting together a mod which should, in principal, be the glue that could perhaps join them together.

For example, I'd like to see resource scanning from orbit, to give you a rough idea where certain resources are. Following this up would be a lander mission, to sample the surface, to find out what the relative abundances would be. Lastly, a manned mission would be sent, to give you ground truth as to the amounts of the resources that are available. This way, all types of mission make some kind of sense.

As for other consumables... There is a mod out there which can make use of resources to make parts, and launch them (I think its still in development); as far as I know, there is no way of finding these resources in the first place. So, I hope you can see what my evil plan would be

Finally, if the devs really have too many things on their plates, to get a resource system done, then why should they bother, when there is a perfectly valid model already modded in? That way, they can concentrate on getting physics right, and all those other lovely things.

[Moon Goddess]

On yet another hand, there are no substances we treat as consumables other than fuels, so there's no need for it to be significantly more complex

Yet look at that flow chart above, still no substances other than fuels, and it is significantly more complex than Kethane, in a good way.

The Kethane system works great, but needs to be broadened. We really shouldn't be turning the same substance into fuel, oxidizer, monopropellant and Xenon. We shouldn't be turning anything into Xenon.

Honestly I think IonCross is as much a defacto life support as Kethane is a defacto mining.

It's probably not used as much simply becuase Kethane makes the game easier, life support makes it harder.

[Mihara]

Honestly I think IonCross is as much a defacto life support as Kethane is a defacto mining.

It's probably not used as much simply becuase Kethane makes the game easier, life support makes it harder.

While it would have been easier to fill up my orbital tanks by launching fuel from Kerbin, I still did that by mining kethane on the Mun because it was more interesting. Kethane offers more options to play with.

Life support itself isn't a de-facto must have feature, but my impression is that this is not so much because it makes playing harder, but because it makes errors hopeless. If you got your kerbals stranded, you can send a rescue mission, if you ran out of fuel in transfer, even then there's often a chance to do something. They're only completely lost if they crashed of if they're on escape trajectory... even then there's a chance.

If your life support ran out, they're dead right there and then.

If there were options to have life support without that finality -- maybe a hibernation option where the crew goes dormant once the resources run out, but you can still attempt to recover them -- I'd expect it would be a lot more popular.

[Moon Goddess]

I wish you had commented as much about the first half of my post, or any, as you did about the second half.

[Mihara]

I wish you had commented as much about the first half of my post, or any, as you did about the second half.

I didn't comment on that because I didn't have anything to say on the subject that I considered valuable that I didn't say previously. To reiterate, I suspect that Kethane is somewhat simplistic like this because it's constantly "when resources will be added, kethane will become obsolete". So while there were calls to develop Kethane into something more complicated, the motivation for the plugin developers to do so has always been low. And while, after Majir took over Kethane, he did give interviews to the effect that it's going to be developed even if the stock resource system comes out, right now he is simply too busy to actually do a proper update, let alone introduce something as broad as a second raw material.

People play with it all the same. I would even say they typically overengineer their refinery designs far beyond what is necessary or practical to make their game easier -- looking at the way Kethane currently works, the optimal kethane processing facility is something with as many drills as possible (because production is really only constrained by the number of drills) and very small kethane tanks, producing fuels in place and hauling ready fuel. Instead, we see people build gigantic kethane tankers and take it to orbit for refining.

And we have completely hijacked a thread that's supposed to be about something considerably different, sorry, tek_604.

[rhoark]

They've said resource processing will be simpler than the released chart. Then awhile later they showed a picture of resource scanning that listed a lot more resources that weren't even on the chart. I think they just haven't really decided how its going to work.

[tek_604]

And we have completely hijacked a thread that's supposed to be about something considerably different, sorry, tek_604.

Actually, no need to apologise, its not actually hijacking. Its a nice way to see what people are looking for from the game, so that I may somehow turn your ideas (maybe not all, I'm the developer ) into something people might want and enjoy using.

So feel free to discuss resources in any way you wish. And while I started this mod purely for sample return, I would be quite happy to extend it further, assuming I can get the time to work on it later, to make it work with, or (if need be), replace other mods which are in use. Like I said before, I think there are a few of these resource/science type mods, but they are all very disjointed. I don't know if that's just how they started, or just how they ended up getting developed. Right now, I'm trying to do something a bit more uniform. It might take some time though.

And anyway, if people are posting in this thread, it increases the visibility of the thread, and makes me look popular

EDIT: 0.2.1 coming very soon. Just getting the package ready...

Edited June 3, 2013 by tek_604
Added note that 0.2.1 is coming...

[Mihara]

And while I started this mod purely for sample return

...and speaking of sample return, here's a method of sample collection that sounds quite kerbal to me. More kerbal than drills, at least.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/hayabusa/collection.cfm

Shooting bullets (300m/s and 5 grams makes a bullet) at the ground to kick up dust, basically. Kerbals would probably shoot something bigger.

[tek_604]

OK. Version 0.2.1 is released. It is simply a part overhaul. See the picture in the first post to see what parts we now have, but, in a nutshell:

1.25m stackable "tank" style container - drains 8 power, for extraction rate of 1, holds 100 units (0.5t rock, 0.2t liquid, 0.1t atmosphere)

20cm surface attachable package - drains 4 power, for extraction rate of 0.5, holds 25 units (0.125t rock, 0.05t liquid, 0.025t atmosphere)

Wonder what I should try implementing next...

[Moon Goddess]

I didn't comment on that because I didn't have anything to say on the subject that I considered valuable that I didn't say previously. To reiterate, I suspect that Kethane is somewhat simplistic like this because it's constantly "when resources will be added, kethane will become obsolete". So while there were calls to develop Kethane into something more complicated, the motivation for the plugin developers to do so has always been low. And while, after Majir took over Kethane, he did give interviews to the effect that it's going to be developed even if the stock resource system comes out, right now he is simply too busy to actually do a proper update, let alone introduce something as broad as a second raw material.

Gotta get my last word in on this topic, as I'm just that kinda girl. I think the words 5 letters long and starts with a 'b' The only reason I wanted you to comment on what I said there, is the fact that I orginally said it looked like stock was going to look too simple like kethane, and I felt like you said that was a good thing, as kethane was still popular being simplistic. Now you seem to say that Kethane is only simplistic due to outside forces so I'm not sure if you agree with me or not that the stock system needs to be more complex than kethane.

And we have completely hijacked a thread that's supposed to be about something considerably different, sorry, tek_604.

I am sorry tek.

Now that I have played around with what you are doing here, I understand I like where this is going. Have you considered a spectrograph scanner that can be used from orbit. Tell what the atmo is without entering it. I know that's possible in real life. Is it possible to spectrograph the surface of an airless world?

It would be really neat if you made spectrograph lines for your elements, and overlayed them so that it shows like a realistic spectrum when you analys something.

[Mihara]

Gotta get my last word in on this topic, as I'm just that kinda girl. I think the words 5 letters long and starts with a 'b'

...a brash one?

The only reason I wanted you to comment on what I said there, is the fact that I orginally said it looked like stock was going to look too simple like kethane, and I felt like you said that was a good thing, as kethane was still popular being simplistic. Now you seem to say that Kethane is only simplistic due to outside forces so I'm not sure if you agree with me or not that the stock system needs to be more complex than kethane.

Far be it from me to just agree with anyone. My statements are:

1. Kethane is simplistic for two reasons: a) outside forces, the constant pressure of the next version and the possibility of being rendered redundant, lack of clear direction in which to take it, which actually has a similar origin. There's also the fact that code keeps needing to be reorganized for the next version all the time...
   
2. Players needlessly complicate actually using it, which, I believe, is the result of a demand for increased (but not too highly increased) complexity.
   
3. That does not mean that developers are aware of that demand for more complexity, they may well be seeing Kethane as an 'idea test bed', if you will, which idea can then be implemented more or less as it exists and works without wasting development effort on iterations. From what I can see, this, or something that looks quite similar to this, happened multiple times in the past.
   
4. That does not mean players won't overcomplicate it in general usage anyway.
   

Am I sufficiently unambiguous now?

[tek_604]

...and speaking of sample return, here's a method of sample collection that sounds quite kerbal to me. More kerbal than drills, at least.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/hayabusa/collection.cfm

I'm aware of Hayabusa. Hard not to be in my job! Although I agree it is a very Kerbal way of doing things, it only worked on Haybusa (and even then only just, I think they got 12 grains... 12!) because it was an asteroid with no gravity. This wouldn't work anywhere else. But... Who wouldn't like a gun for this?! If asteroids are added to the game, then we could do it.

Now that I have played around with what you are doing here, I understand I like where this is going. Have you considered a spectrograph scanner that can be used from orbit. Tell what the atmo is without entering it. I know that's possible in real life. Is it possible to spectrograph the surface of an airless world?

It would be really neat if you made spectrograph lines for your elements, and overlayed them so that it shows like a realistic spectrum when you analys something.

I'm glad you understand and like where it is going! I am very much considering scanning from orbit. However... To make it easy to use, and also worthwhile, orbital scanning (as I see it now), will only tell you where things of interest are. Its a hard one to explain, as I'm in the middle of sketching out the ideas.

But, right now, my ideas are roughly... In order to mine something efficiently, and make other types of mission worthwhile, the following missions should be undertaken BEFORE resource extraction:

1) Orbital mission - to map the surface and locate areas of particular interest

2) Surface sampling - to get a rough idea on surface composition

3) Sample return - to get a better understanding of surface composition

4) Manned/large landing mission - to confirm the sample return results

5) Mining

6) Profit! (and I say profit not lightly, cause I'm actually wondering if money could somehow be shoehorned in as a resource)

Now, as you can see, thats a hell of a lot of work. Its gonna take time. Certainly more than a couple of days. And as we stand now, we only have the mechanics for exchanging one resource for another. A long way to go... But, this is what I want.

With the help of Scotius, I now have a good idea as to how mining should work. It isn't the Kethane way, and will involve the steps I outlined about to achieve maximum efficiency.

Edited June 4, 2013 by tek_604
Added note about gun & asteroids

[Mihara]

I'm aware of Hayabusa. Hard not to be in my job! Although I agree it is a very Kerbal way of doing things, it only worked on Haybusa (and even then only just, I think they got 12 grains... 12!) because it was an asteroid with no gravity. This wouldn't work anywhere else. But... Who wouldn't like a gun for this?! If asteroids are added to the game, then we could do it.

It worked "only just" because the gun didn't fire at all, mind, the grains were from Hayabusa itself slamming into the asteroid.

And Gilly is a close enough approximation of an asteroid right now, try extending an antenna into the ground of Gilly and you'll see what I mean.