Infinite electricity idea

[OUScooby]

I noticed something today looking through the KSP parts and an idea came to me. The OX-STAT Photovoltaic Panels (the single small square solar panels) produces electricity from sunlight at a rate of 0.75 e/s, the Illuminator Mk2 only consumes electricity at a rate of .02 e/s. Just a silly idea I had, I know there are better, simpler, and more practical way to power your creation, but seeing the stats for those parts couldn't help but get me thinking... If you placed one of these lamps shining directly onto one of these solar panels could the light from lamp produce more electricity than the light was consuming? You could have an endless supply of power for your rovers even on the dark side of the planet!

Now I know that system like this would never work in the real world, but what about in the limited physics of KSP? Could it work?

[lazarus1024]

No, because the lights don't produce photovoltaic forcing like light from Kerbol does.

So shining a light on solar panels produces zero electricity.

[Excellent]

It actually can work IRL ive seen it on youtube but the guy said it only works for about 20 min D:

As for it being in KSP..., idk because the solar panals will only give electricity when in direct contanct of the sun that why you cant even get a small amount of charge from an explosion or light from the mun

Only one way to find out

[Spatzimaus]

It actually can work IRL

No, it can't. Conservation of energy, and all that; solar panels are only about 10% efficient at best, and the light is also inefficient, so you can't somehow GAIN energy. No matter what you think you've seen on YouTube, you can't even come close to breaking even on energy for even a second.

In terms of KSP, no, it doesn't work because spotlights are ignored by the game for the purpose of solar panels. But even if they weren't, that 0.75e/s isn't a constant flow that turns on if the panel receives any light at all. It is the amount of energy that solar panel would get from sunlight, at Kerbin's distance, if the panel is facing directly towards the sun. Go closer to the Sun (Eve or Moho) and the panel produces more energy, go further away and it produces much less. (This is a real headache when you're doing a mission around Jool.) Fixed panels simply won't be facing directly towards the Sun; this is the big advantage of the deployed panels, since they'll do their best to face the Sun at all times. And it's the number for sunlight, so if you had some weaker source of light, the amount would be far less.

[DChurchill]

Doesn't work. The panels on my station produce no electricity even with a small amount of direct light from a ring of Mk1's on the dark side of Kerbin.

In any case, it's perpetual motion again. Inefficiency in the system would require an external energy source to perpetuate itself. The guy on Youtube is scamming ya.

Edited June 20, 2013 by DChurchill
Spelling

[sporkafife]

Simplified Laws of thermodynamics:

0th law: you must play the game

1st law: you can't win the game

2nd law: you can't even break even

3rd law: there's not even a way to quit the game

^^^ so you can't increase the mass/energy content of the universe.

Of course KSP doesn't model thermodynamics, in fact it hardly models physics But I'm sure they wouldn't let the infinite energy solar panel thing pass

[DChurchill]

Entropy is a b****.

[Sirrobert]

It actually can work IRL ive seen it on youtube but the guy said it only works for about 20 min D:

And because it's on the internet, it must be true right?

I'm not even going to TRY to explain in how many ways you are horribly wrong, because it will be a huge waste of time. I'm just going to leave with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity

[Deadpangod3]

The iluminators don't use electricity at all for me, all they do is just not turn on when there's zero electricity

[Brabbit1987]

And because it's on the internet, it must be true right?

I'm not even going to TRY to explain in how many ways you are horribly wrong, because it will be a huge waste of time. I'm just going to leave with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity

Actually, the funny thing is you are the one wrong. You can hook up a solar panel to a light bulb and power the solar panel with the light bulbs light. It works. However, the energy going through lessens each time and it eventually goes out, which is pretty much what the person said to begin with. So I do not see how they are wrong. Te person never said infinite, they said 20 minutes.

Edit: course to clarify , this can not be used to make infinite energy, all your doing is converting the electric to light, then back to electric then back to light and so on and so fourth. It eventually weakens each time you convert.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[Felsmak]

KSP meets Troll Science!

[Bunsen]

Actually, the funny thing is you are the one wrong. You can hook up a solar panel to a light bulb and power the solar panel with the light bulbs light. It works. However, the energy going through lessens each time and it eventually goes out, which is pretty much what the person said to begin with. So I do not see how they are wrong. Te person never said infinite, they said 20 minutes.

Edit: course to clarify , this can not be used to make infinite energy, all your doing is converting the electric to light, then back to electric then back to light and so on and so fourth. It eventually weakens each time you convert.

No, it does not work. The time for that energy to cycle through the system is on the order of a few microseconds (depends mostly on the junction capacitance of the photovoltaic panel and effective impedance of the light source), and it decays by, conservatively, around 90% each cycle. Even if you lit the light with an external energy source at first, after you disconnect that the energy content would exponentially decrease with a time constant about a million times too short for your eyes to perceive. If you used an incandescent light, you'd see the filament glow for a moment just because it takes a bit of time to cool off. Spatzimaus and Sirrobert are entirely correct.

The moral of today's story: Pay attention in science class, kids, and never trust youtube.

[Sirrobert]

Actually, the funny thing is you are the one wrong. You can hook up a solar panel to a light bulb and power the solar panel with the light bulbs light. It works. However, the energy going through lessens each time and it eventually goes out, which is pretty much what the person said to begin with. So I do not see how they are wrong. Te person never said infinite, they said 20 minutes.

Edit: course to clarify , this can not be used to make infinite energy, all your doing is converting the electric to light, then back to electric then back to light and so on and so fourth. It eventually weakens each time you convert.

Except that a lightbulb turns up to 80% of it's energy into heat, which is lost to the solar pannel. And ofcourse all the light that doesn't go directly into the solar pannel (no, not even with perfect mirror setup you're going to get 100% of the light emitted by the lightbulb into the solarpannel) is energy lost, and than the solar pannel not being 100% efficient is even MORE energy lost.

If you were to hook up a lightbulb to battery, shine it on a solarpannel, make the solarpannel charge the battery, I estimate you MIGHT get 10 seconds of light more than the battery can give on it's own. And when we'r talking about 20 minutes here, that's being very generous

[Brabbit1987]

No, it does not work. The time for that energy to cycle through the system is on the order of a few microseconds (depends mostly on the junction capacitance of the photovoltaic panel and effective impedance of the light source), and it decays by, conservatively, around 90% each cycle. Even if you lit the light with an external energy source at first, after you disconnect that the energy content would exponentially decrease with a time constant about a million times too short for your eyes to perceive. If you used an incandescent light, you'd see the filament glow for a moment just because it takes a bit of time to cool off. Spatzimaus and Sirrobert are entirely correct.

The moral of today's story: Pay attention in science class, kids, and never trust youtube.

It's a fact that solar panels can absorb energy form artificial light. You almost certainly can't deny that unless you have no idea how a solar panel works. However the absorption from a light bulb would only be like 5/100 of it's total energy. However as I said, it does not create infinite energy. Also as you pointed out, it doesn't last for very long. However, you didn't prove me wrong, as I am not the one who said it lasts 20 minutes. I just simply said it's possible, and it very well is. If you are saying it's impossible, you proved yourself wrong in your own comment.

No matter how little the energy absorbed it still works.

[Brabbit1987]

Except that a lightbulb turns up to 80% of it's energy into heat, which is lost to the solar pannel. And ofcourse all the light that doesn't go directly into the solar pannel (no, not even with perfect mirror setup you're going to get 100% of the light emitted by the lightbulb into the solarpannel) is energy lost, and than the solar pannel not being 100% efficient is even MORE energy lost.

If you were to hook up a lightbulb to battery, shine it on a solarpannel, make the solarpannel charge the battery, I estimate you MIGHT get 10 seconds of light more than the battery can give on it's own. And when we'r talking about 20 minutes here, that's being very generous

Yes i know that, I never said it last forever. Point out where I said the energy source lasts forever? Thanks for correcting me on something I didn't say. The 20 minutes comment wasn't me, that was someone else and I was commenting on their comment. They are not wrong, that it works, is what I meant. 20 minutes though is being very generous and is unlikely.

[Rage097]

and never trust youtube.

*slowly starts clapping*

*the audience gradually starts clapping*

*clapping increases to deafening levels*

You sir, get a gold star. Thank you for the mass amount of common sense you produced here, something the internet is so lacking of at its current state.

[Brabbit1987]

*slowly starts clapping*

*the audience gradually starts clapping*

*clapping increases to deafening levels*

You sir, get a gold star. Thank you for the mass amount of common sense you produced here, something the internet is so lacking of at its current state.

It's common sense, but it doesn't mean youtube is never right. Also, for the most part you most certainly can power a solar panel with artificial energy. So your comment makes you look stupid.

I can say it's also reasonable to never believe retards on the net on a forum but then I would be just being mean.

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/blog/2012/09/student-engineer-tests-solar-powered-robot.php - this is a nice article about a kid testing different types of light sources for a science project to power his solar powered robot.

Again, I will say it, over and over again. It works. You can even use the same light bulb connected to the solar panel, it just would not transfer much energy over. A 100 watt light bulb would only transfer like 5 watts. But it still does transfer which means it's possible.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[Rage097]

It's common sense, but it doesn't mean youtube is never right. Also, for the most part you most certainly can power a solar panel with artificial energy. So your comment makes you look stupid.

I can say it's also reasonable to never believe retards on the net on a forum but then I would be just being mean.

I never said you cannot power a solar panel with artificial light. And I do understand that there is a good bit of honest info on youtube, but a lot of it is drowned out by moronic crap.

[Sirrobert]

It's common sense, but it doesn't mean youtube is never right. Also, for the most part you most certainly can power a solar panel with artificial energy. So your comment makes you look stupid.

I can say it's also reasonable to never believe retards on the net on a forum but then I would be just being mean.

You realize you are defending a guy who said:

It actually can work IRL ive seen it on youtube

Right?

And ofcourse you can power a solar pannel with artificial light. But just as you can turn water into H2 and O2 using the electricty you get from burning fosil fuel, than burn the H2 in a hybrid engine, and claim you are saving energy, it's entirely pointles and you save alot more if you skip the middle part

[jwenting]

No, it can't. Conservation of energy, and all that; solar panels are only about 10% efficient at best, and the light is also inefficient, so you can't somehow GAIN energy. No matter what you think you've seen on YouTube, you can't even come close to breaking even on energy for even a second.

RL the cells will produce, but they won't get more power out then you pour in.

Same would happen in KSP were you to get electrical power from lamps. You'd get far below max efficiency from them.

[Brabbit1987]

You realize you are defending a guy who said:

Right?

And ofcourse you can power a solar pannel with artificial light. But just as you can turn water into H2 and O2 using the electricty you get from burning fosil fuel, than burn the H2 in a hybrid engine, and claim you are saving energy, it's entirely pointles and you save alot more if you skip the middle part

Understood, but you all are just as wrong as he is by saying "you are wrong" because not every single part of his info was wrong.

[Sirrobert]

Understood, but you all are just as wrong as he is by saying "you are wrong" because not every single part of his info was wrong.

All most of us quoted was the 'it can happen IRL' part. That is wrong

[Brabbit1987]

All most of us quoted was the 'it can happen IRL' part. That is wrong

No that part is not wrong. It CAN happen in RL just not to the extent he said.. He said it lasts 20 minutes when it fact it lasts a hell of a lot less. That doesn't mean it doesn't work though. This also does not mean it will never work. It's pretty much the same concept with asparagus staging in KSP. Fuel efficiency. Except it's trying to be done with electric instead. Currently solar panels can't absorb enough of the energy put off by the light bulb to keep the light bulb lit for long. That doesn't make it impossible or not work, it just means the tools currently are incapable of such. All we are really talking about here is conversion, this isn't rocket science. Pun intended

[Sirrobert]

No that part is not wrong. It CAN happen in RL just not to the extent he said.. He said it lasts 20 minutes when it fact it lasts a hell of a lot less. That doesn't mean it doesn't work though. This also does not mean it will never work. It's pretty much the same concept with asparagus staging in KSP. Fuel efficiency. Except it's trying to be done with electric instead. Currently solar panels can't absorb enough of the energy put off by the light bulb to keep the light bulb lit for long. That doesn't make it impossible or not work, it just means the tools currently are incapable of such. All we are really talking about here is conversion, this isn't rocket science. Pun intended

You are talking about perpetual energy here

By definition the ONLY way for that to work, would be if EVERY device involved would be 100% efficient. In theory this might be possible sure, but than you'd have a closed circuit doing stuf without use. If you wanted to make use of it, you'd need to have MORE than 100% efficienty.

And that is NOT possible

[Brabbit1987]

You are talking about perpetual energy here

By definition the ONLY way for that to work, would be if EVERY device involved would be 100% efficient. In theory this might be possible sure, but than you'd have a closed circuit doing stuf without use. If you wanted to make use of it, you'd need to have MORE than 100% efficienty.

And that is NOT possible

Right but I don't think that is what he was saying. I am pretty sure what he meant is that a solar panel most certainly can absorb energy for a light bulb. Though maybe I am the one misunderstanding him. *shrugs*