Why do the devs not simply (with permission) add really good mods to the main game?

[Kerbface]

Just wondering. There are some mods that feel like they should (perhaps with minor alterations) be part of the game. Some just are natural fits, utilities that will probably be in the game eventually anyway. Why don't developers ask the modders if they can have the mods added to the core game? It would allow them more time to develop things that mods can't provide.

[Katve]

Already happening! Cubola and new mk1 lander can is from KSPX mod pack and some other parts are from there too.

[stupid_chris]

Actually, they added those because they hired the creator and because the parts were meant to look like stock.

Problems with most mods is that they don't fit KSP's style or goals. And mods using plugins need more than permission. IIRC, they can't just add coding from other people to the game because there could be potentially disastrous code that would break the game with a new update, and then Squad would be blamed for adding code they didn't write in the game, causing this.

Although, very very few mods out there meet the devs idea of the game. As for MechJeb, that on't get implemented in the game because they don't want automated guidance.

Besides, having a mod in the vanilla game or as a third party download doesn't change anything at all for the user, you're getting what you want anyway.

[Mokmo]

a few parts from kspx went one the main game when the author became a dev.

(Annoying part: The KSPX Atlas is now the Skipper, but also changed its definition name, so i had to do a few edits to get it working, basically old nale ->> new name)

[Tw1]

(Annoying part: The KSPX Atlas is now the Skipper, but also changed its definition name, so i had to do a few edits to get it working, basically old nale ->> new name)

Agreed, that was a small inconvenience.

[-Gamah]

Oh this thred title is just asking for it...

[bsalis]

New features need proper testing, as well as proper UIs.

Besides, any mods you like you can download and use, so I don't see a problem. With Spaceport integration it should be even easier.

[Fel]

Well, with plugins... I, at least, would re-write the vast majority of these simply because they've gone 20 odd versions without the creator caring about basic optimizations or extensibility.

Even then, if some code is going to become an official part of your project, you should know what it does... just copy / paste it into the next build is liable to cause problems.

And of course, I believe that SQUAD follows the motto "if it isn't in-house, it isn't in" hence why they abduct (hire) modders rather than ask to use their code.

[Pulstar]

It's also an issue of integrating and optimizing the code in the case of plugins, at times it might simply be better to just write everything from scratch since the developers have access to the source code. Modders don't so their solutions and features implemented may be a bit more bloated (as far as memory/CPU usage is concerned) than they could be and a bit less fleshed out than they could be with access to the source code. Since this is a commercial work in progress giving them access to the source code of the game is obviously not an option.

EDIT: ninja'd by the post above

[jwenting]

I always smile when kids say it's "simple to just XXXX" for devs of a big software system. Having been in the industry, the things suggested are never "simple" to implement, always require major effort.

As said, they can't just add mods and hope they will continue working. Not only would it need extensive testing, and repeated extensive testing with everything that changes elsewhere in the code, there'd also be potentially massive legal problems if after months or years someone steps forward and claims that the stuff that was added was actually stolen from them, or uses open source code that doesn't allow commercial use.

Even if the case can be won eventually when it goes to court, the company would be destroyed from the bad press and the massive legal cost.

[Fel]

there'd also be potentially massive legal problems if after months or years someone steps forward and claims that the stuff that was added was actually stolen from them, or uses open source code that doesn't allow commercial use.

So true... or even Open Source with a "non-distribution" clause.

Copyrights don't matter to anyone these days, I recall there was a thread where someone was ripping models out of a game that got pruned by a Moderator; SQUAD has good reason to be cautious when accepting the work of others.

[OrbitusII]

There's also the issue that some people don't want mods in their game, even if the mods are now considered "stock." The closest that Squad has gotten to actually using someone's mod was hiring ClairaLyrae to make the cupola (which is not the same as the KSPX one, mind you) and the Skipper (which is basically a refurbished KSPX Atlas). Why did they do this? To add more parts and make the game better and/or more immersive and/or more fun to play; I use the Skipper all the time since it's powerful and efficient, making it a useful, fun addition to the game. Other things, like FAR, are massive changes to the way you play the game, which may also make it harder despite some good changes (I enjoyed using less dV, but I disliked having to make aerodynamically stable rockets). If Squad implemented FAR, they may lose some fanbase or scare people away from buying the game because it's so difficult at first.

[jwenting]

So true... or even Open Source with a "non-distribution" clause.

Copyrights don't matter to anyone these days, I recall there was a thread where someone was ripping models out of a game that got pruned by a Moderator; SQUAD has good reason to be cautious when accepting the work of others.

There's people bragging about using pirated copies of KSPs in comments to Scot Manley's videos on youtube... And getting hostile when they get called out on it.

[Sir Nahme]

Why add mods when you can add something different?

[Kerbface]

Why add mods when you can add something different?

Well, because adding a mod does not stop you from adding something different at all in the slightest? In fact it would make it easier because it means there's one less thing you have to focus your time on.

Others have said that modders often use copyrighted material and make inefficient coding, but some modders become part of the development team, so surely they showed that they could create high quality original work that wasn't terribly coded, so why can't their things be brought in (if it fits the game)?

[Capt'n Skunky]

The closest that Squad has gotten to actually using someone's mod was hiring ClairaLyrae to make the cupola (which is not the same as the KSPX one, mind you) and the Skipper (which is basically a refurbished KSPX Atlas).

You've completely overlooked ALL the space plane parts that were made by C7 before being hired and were eventually merged into the game.

Cheers!

Capt'n Skunky

KSP Community Manager

[Sir Nahme]

Well, because adding a mod does not stop you from adding something different at all in the slightest? In fact it would make it easier because it means there's one less thing you have to focus your time on.

Others have said that modders often use copyrighted material and make inefficient coding, but some modders become part of the development team, so surely they showed that they could create high quality original work that wasn't terribly coded, so why can't their things be brought in (if it fits the game)?

There is more work to adding it than you might think, besides "having permission" there are legal issues (written permission, signed and notarised and IP paperwork ect) you had to download it and verify it meets the conventions you use (model verticies, texture levelling, optomisation). In addition any plugin code needs to meet the teams coding conventions (this is actually equally or more complicated than ensuring uniformity in modelling and texturing, and even more important to keep from suffering bug creep). All this takes man hours that could be used adding something new while the modder adds their own stuff for anyone who wants it. Will there be some overlap? of course, modders will make things that the Dev's add in their own way later but generally speaking it will be minimal and the systems that modders add won't necessarily be "easy to add" or even necessarily the most effective implementation.

[Fel]

There's people bragging about using pirated copies of KSPs in comments to Scot Manley's videos on youtube... And getting hostile when they get called out on it.

Seriously, what has this world come to.... stealing from indie developers -__-

Others have said that modders often use copyrighted material and make inefficient coding, but some modders become part of the development team, so surely they showed that they could create high quality original work that wasn't terribly coded, so why can't their things be brought in (if it fits the game)?

To be a bit brief and non-specific... I tend to "maintain" my own versions of various mods. One of the worst things I see is the use of "MACROS" by people who don't know what a macro is (now whether C# actually inlines anything is another story.)

The problem with macros is that you should never treat them as variables. Using "isNull(temp)" as a macro means you should have "isNotNull(temp)." More so, macros like "IF_IsKerbalEVA_GetKerbalEVA()" create the redundancy code of having multiple tests "IsKerbalEVA" performed when you really want "GetKerbalEVA." Then it gets worse because the above is expected to return KerbalEVA, but then has to return null if it isn't KerbalEVA, this is then tested by "isNull()"

WORSE starts to happen when people use macros to return LISTS. Now you're looping over to filter out what you don't want, only to loop over the list you returned (and have made a global variable for no reason). The macro used to create said list can easily be moved into the code that reads the list... but then people even call macros like that multiple times rather than simply have a conditional statement inside the original foreach loop.

This isn't on a single mod basis, this is on a whole. Many people use macros like crazy as a kind of "self documenting code", even if it is just a single line that is called once or twice, it gets a macro. The simple use of macros causes great inefficiencies in code simply because people don't understand what macros should be used for. (Again, I doubt C# inlines anything; so there is probably no such thing as a C# macro. [and yes, the c++ inline directive is a little different than a pure macro, but nvm]).

*and no, macros are just one sin, the point is that there is a general "lack of caring to try to optimize", multiple embedded if then else statments are a good example here; if there is repititious code in them, they can usually be turned into a far more efficient form (using a single return / break (basically, goto), can readily simplify many structures that have an "if end condition is true, execute this... else execute this code on any other condition"). [And, if the compiler can be trusted... *reads the microsoft label*... it would form that same structure anyways with JMP commands (basically, goto); but you, as a human, have an easier time maintaining the code.]

[samstarman5]

KSP is just about the most mod-friendly game out there, making it easier to add mods than even Minecraft, and you want Squad to make the extra effort to make the mod official? I'm sorry but that is about the most ungrateful and self-serving statement I have seen, here. If you can't be bothered to download a mod that someone made without getting paid, who even keeps it updated with a rapid-upgrade schedule, then you don't deserve to be dealing with mods.

Squad does have the right at any time to incorporate mods into their game and they don't have to give credit, because of copyright law. Why? Because all content made with their coding and for the game becomes their property. But they don't exercise that because they aren't the likes of EA, Activision, or Nintendo. Like Mojang, the mods they do choose to add in are done with full communication with the modmaker and all due credit is given. Those modmakers are even offered a job to actually get paid for their hard work.

I appreciate the work Squad puts into the game, and I am quite happy with the base game as it is. I also firmly support the mods that are made, and frankly love the creativity put into it. But inviting Squad to just start going for mods like some mad leech is bad medicine and only encourages them to do so wholesale with zero thought to the work put into them. KSP as it is is just fine, with plenty of potential for much more down the road. If ever it didn't become enough for me, I know there is a huge library of user-made content out there to choose from. I prefer it stay out there where the users who made said content are encouraged to make more.