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[1.2] Procedural Fairings 3.20 (November 8)

e-dog

By e-dog
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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

Posted
Posted (edited)
KW introduces 3.75m parts in Very Heavy Rocketry.

So it seems to be the case... I actually had to go and download (but not install) KW Rocketry just to check this fact... I had forgotten just how overly-restrictive KW Rocketry is sometimes, and how it tends to force a certain play-style on you... (unlike NovaPunch2, which tends to provide a lot more flexibility- especially if you go and install RealFuels and an engine-config for it so that each engine has multiple possible fuel-modes...)

That's the same tier of the tech tree as Heavy Aerodynamics, which has the PF 6-meter unlock, and Meta-Materials, which has the KW 3.75m interstage decoupler. KW's fixed 3.75m fairings are one tier earlier in Advanced Aerodynamics. Since I leave the KW fairings installed and use them for payloads that fit the standard sizes, that placement works for me.

We're not talking about using KW (or Novapunch2 for that matter) fairings. They're a lot less convenient, and can't do a lot of things as easily as Procedural Fairings can, like interstages (which is where the current diameter-limits become particularly annoying- I'm usually not trying to lift a 3.75 meter payload to orbit, I'm trying to encompass a 3.75 meter engine inside an interstage fairing at the tech-level of Heavier Rocketry!)

And at the tech-level that Procedural Fairings allows 6 meter fairings, not only has NovaPunch2 given players 5 meter engines, Procedural Parts has already lifted all restrictions on rocket-sizes (at Meta-Materials) and they're being used to try and encompass 10 and 12 meter diameter interstages! (using the radial attachment ports or Cubic Octagonal Struts for makeshift clusters of 3.75 and 5 meter engines...)

If you strip the fixed-size fairings out of KW to reduce the number of parts you're loading, the new PF sizes should probably unlock one tier earlier where the KW fairings would, so you don't have to unlock two separate 550-point nodes before you can take advantage of either.

I have no idea what you're saying here, and I don't see why you would use KW Rocektry fairings at all when you have Procedural Fairings installed. Delete the fairings folders from KW Rocketry and save your poor computer some RAM when running KSP!

If I were using NovaPunch and had size-3 engines in the 160-point tier, I would probably edit the PF config locally to make size-3 interstages available there. But if you follow NovaPunch's progression in the standard package, you end up with limits that don't affect anyone who isn't using NovaPunch.

The point of the change to the tech-limits is to not unduly penalize players who use NovaPunch2 and decide to delete the NovaPunch2 fairings and play with Procedural Fairings instead...

Or, alternatively, you can play with Procedural Parts and build a mighty engine-cluster 3.75 meters in diameter under a 4 meter Procedural Parts fuel tank using old tricks to rocket construction like Cubic Octagonal Strut thrust-plates at this tech-level... (which become feasible with Composites- which is a 300 Science node...)

Besides, this is Kerbal! It seems you're not familiar with the motto "Build it Bigger!"

It's what they did in real life up through at least 1970 (Saturn V wasn't even the largest rocket designed, Sea Dragon would have been 23 meters in diameter!) and what we're going back to again with the Space Launch System! (albeit this time with a Hydro/LOX SRB-assisted launch stage, instead of a big Kero/LOX one like with Saturn V...)

In the end, though, it boils down to this- having less restrictive limits of what you can do in Career Mode doesn't force you to do anything. Having limits which forbid certain (might I add more realistic- KSP rockets are far too small for their tech-level compared to real life...) gameplay options does, on the other hand...

Speaking of which, surely you must agree that, if nothing else, the final tech-limits in Career Mode when you've unlocked the entire tech tree are too restrictive in the current version of Procedural Parts... It restricts you to 10 meter rockets as a maximum size! With limits like that, how are you ever supposed to build an in-game analog of Sea Dragon (23 meters) or the Mars Colonial Transport Vehicle (15 meter) designs?! That's basically taking the unrealistic and hard-to-stomach standpoint that what was accomplished historically is the best that we could have or ever will hope to accomplish, and the most that was feasible with past technology or is possible even today- which simply isn't true.

Which is why I'm glad e-dog has given me his blessing (by PM) to write up a new tech-limits file, although he warned me (quite accurately as it appears) that I would have to put up with everyone's complaints about the new tech-limits, rather than it being his fault any longer... :D

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

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Posted (edited)

@e-dog

OK, so here I present the revised tech-limits:


PROCFAIRINGS_MINDIAMETER
{
  start = 1
  precisionEngineering = 0.4
  sandbox = 0.1
}

PROCFAIRINGS_MAXDIAMETER
{
  start = 1.5
  aerodynamicSystems = 4
  heavyAerodynamics = 12
  experimentalAerodynamics = 30
  sandbox = 50
}


PROCROCKET_MINDIAMETER
{
  start = 1
  precisionEngineering = 0.4
  sandbox = 0.1
}

PROCROCKET_MAXDIAMETER
{
  start = 1.5
  advConstruction = 4
  veryHeavyRocketry = 12
  experimentalRocketry = 30
  sandbox = 50
}


//-----------------------------------------------------------------------
// Dummy parts to represent Procedural Fairings upgrades in the tech tree

PART
{
  name = pf_tech_fairing04m
  TechRequired = precisionEngineering
  description = Allows fairings and plates to be made as small as 0.4m.

  MODEL
  {
    model = ProceduralFairings/baseModel
  }

  title = Procedural Fairings Upgrade
  module = Part
  author = Starstrider42 (config), Northstar1989 (config), e-dog (model)
  entryCost = 0
  cost = 0
  category = none
  manufacturer = Keramzit Engineering
}

PART
{
  name = pf_tech_fairing4m
  TechRequired = aerodynamicSystems
  description = Allows fairing bases up to 4m size.

  MODEL
  {
    model = ProceduralFairings/baseModel
  }

  title = Procedural Fairings Upgrade
  module = Part
  author = Starstrider42 (config), Northstar1989 (config), e-dog (model)
  entryCost = 0
  cost = 0
  category = none
  manufacturer = Keramzit Engineering
}

PART
{
  name = pf_tech_fairing12m
  TechRequired = heavyAerodynamics
  description = Allows fairing bases up to 12m size.

  MODEL
  {
    model = ProceduralFairings/baseModel
  }

  title = Procedural Fairings Upgrade
  module = Part
  author = Starstrider42 (config), Northstar1989 (config), e-dog (model)
  entryCost = 0
  cost = 0
  category = none
  manufacturer = Keramzit Engineering
}

PART
{
  name = pf_tech_fairing30m
  TechRequired = experimentalAerodynamics
  description = Allows fairing bases up to 30m size.

  MODEL
  {
    model = ProceduralFairings/baseModel
  }

  title = Procedural Fairings Upgrade
  module = Part
  author = Starstrider42 (config), Northstar189 (config), e-dog (model)
  entryCost = 0
  cost = 0
  category = none
  manufacturer = Keramzit Engineering
}

PART
{
  name = pf_tech_rocket4m
  TechRequired = advConstruction
  description = Allows thrust plates up to 4m size.

  MODEL
  {
    model = ProceduralFairings/thrustPlate
  }

  title = Procedural Fairings Upgrade
  module = Part
  author = Starstrider42 (config), Northstar1989 (config), e-dog (model)
  entryCost = 0
  cost = 0
  category = none
  manufacturer = Keramzit Engineering
}

PART
{
  name = pf_tech_rocket12m
  TechRequired = veryHeavyRocketry
  description = Allows thrust plates up to 12m size.

  MODEL
  {
    model = ProceduralFairings/thrustPlate
  }

  title = Procedural Fairings Upgrade
  module = Part
  author = Starstrider42 (config), Northstar1989 (config), e-dog (model)
  entryCost = 0
  cost = 0
  category = none
  manufacturer = Keramzit Engineering
}

PART
{
  name = pf_tech_rocket30m
  TechRequired = experimentalRocketry
  description = Allows thrust plates up to 30m size.

  MODEL
  {
    model = ProceduralFairings/thrustPlate
  }

  title = Procedural Fairings Upgrade
  module = Part
  author = Starstrider42 (config), Northstar1989 (config), e-dog (model)
  entryCost = 0
  cost = 0
  category = none
  manufacturer = Keramzit Engineering
}

Changelog:

- Implemented new, less restrictive size-restrictions for fairings and thrust-plates.

+ Thrust plates and fairings up to 4 meters (rather than 3 meters) in diameter are now available before the end of the (stock) tech-tree.

+ Minimum size of fairings and thrust-plates with Precision Engineering reduced from 0.5 meters to 0.4 meters (if players can find a way to build a probe small enough to fit into a 400 cm fairing in stock, they should be able to build the fairing! Also, such small probes are easily possible with Procedural Parts + Tweakscale, and in real life...)

+ At the end of the stock tech tree, players can build fairings and thrust-plates up to 12 meters in diameter (only going to really be used with Procedural Parts, but why not?! This is the tech-level of Space Launch System, and exceeds Saturn V by several generations- and Saturn V was 10 meters!)

+ With Experimental Rocketry and Experimental Aerodynamics, players can build rockets up to 30 meters in diameter (previously 10 meters at this tech-level, and 50 in Sandbox- so was already only going to be used by players with Procedural Parts installed... Allows replicas of some of the extremely large rockets proposed in real life like Sea Dragon- experimental but undoubtedly feasible concepts that were never built- quite fitting for the name of the tech nodes...)

- Added new dummy-part for Thrust Plate upgrade at Advanced Construction (upgrade was already coded, but had no dummy-part)

- Re-named all dummy-parts to reflect new size-restrictions (so fairing dummy-part at Aerodynamics is now called "4 meter fairings" instead of "3 meter fairings")

- Added my own name to the authors-list for the dummy-parts :)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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Starwaster

Starwaster

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Posted
What is "Gesundheit?" I know it is german for "health" or something similar, but I am lost on the context here.

Anyway, Kerbal Joint Reinforcement is this nifty mod that does a lot of things in the background to ensure your rocket just doesn't disassemble itself.

It also has the side effect of causing certain of PF's parts to decouple that wouldn't normally decouple. It's the only thing I can think of that would cause the fuselage parts (which aren't supposed to decouple) to do that.

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John FX

John FX

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I've been away for over a year. The interstage fairing seem to be missing an adjustment that I used quite a bit before. For the conic fairing, it starts to angle in towards center as soon as it leaves the base plate. I remember being able to adjust how "tall" the fairing was before it started angling towards the center. Has this gone away?

I also miss this functionality, it really helped with creating particular shapes with fairings. If I am misunderstanding how some of the tweakables work please let me know.

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futrtrubl

futrtrubl

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I also miss this functionality, it really helped with creating particular shapes with fairings. If I am misunderstanding how some of the tweakables work please let me know.

Right click on the interstage base. Turn autoshape off. Re-right click on the fairing base to update the menu. Set max size smaller than base width. Set start height to 0.

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Kurld

Kurld

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Right click on the interstage base. Turn autoshape off. Re-right click on the fairing base to update the menu. Set max size smaller than base width. Set start height to 0.

Thanks, I'll give it a shot!

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Kurld

Kurld

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Posted (edited)

I never noticed the "cylinder begin" and "cylinder end" toggles before. It seems like if you just set "auto-shape off" they don't appear until you click off the tweakable popup and then right click on the part again.

Edited by Kurld
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Dunbaratu

Dunbaratu

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Posted

Hi, I've been trying to diagnose a problem in kOS that a user reported over in this post:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68089-0-90-kOS-Scriptable-Autopilot-System-v0-16-2-2015-2-23?p=1816722&viewfull=1#post1816722

The gist of it is that kOS is counting the liquidfuel of a tank from an upper stage as being part of the total fuel in the current stage when it's not.

All we're doing in the kOS code is just calling SQUAD's own method for this: Vessel.GetActiveResources() - which gives you a list of all the resource amounts currently available for use. And yet this problem seems to only happen when the upper and lower stages are connected via a procedural Fairings' interstage fairing. It's as if it's reporting itself to KSP as currently allowing crossfeeding when it isn't, or something like that. KSP itself doesn't seem to be confused by this - it can tell that the engine can't reach that fuel, but its own API method Vessel.GetActiveResources() is claiming that fuel tank is currently usable.

Is there any idea what's going on? Like I said, this works fine for stock parts. There's something about the interstage fairing that makes this complaint come up from time to time with it.

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Kurld

Kurld

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Posted

Well, there is an option to turn on crossfeed with that part, iirc. I'm going to guess there's a hole in the API code or the mod itself that allows the state to get out of sync and thus report incorrectly.

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Cyst

Cyst

Posted
Posted
What is "Gesundheit?" I know it is german for "health" or something similar, but I am lost on the context here.

Anyway, Kerbal Joint Reinforcement is this nifty mod that does a lot of things in the background to ensure your rocket just doesn't disassemble itself.

Sweet, it's fun!

Thank you.

Also, "Gesundheit"; well, as others explained. Aside from its true meaning, it's sometimes used as a...witty indication of ignorance, meaning "I have no idea what you just said". :)

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NemesisWolfe

NemesisWolfe

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Posted

Love the mod, just have a quick question...

Is it somehow possible to move the position of the attachment nodes for the fairings?

Ive tried to do this using the cfg file, but no matter what coordinates I set, they keep located at the same position.

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hollyfeld

hollyfeld

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Posted
What is "Gesundheit?" I know it is german for "health" or something similar, but I am lost on the context here.

Actually, it means "return to health" (heit = health; ge- = repeat or again, attached to verbs mainly; sind = to go; thus gesund = go again or return). Yay college German class, I can't believe you came in handy! :cool:

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Honeybadga

Honeybadga

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Posted
Actually, it means "return to health" (heit = health; ge- = repeat or again, attached to verbs mainly; sind = to go; thus gesund = go again or return). Yay college German class, I can't believe you came in handy! :cool:

Actually, it just means health or healthiness, e.g. "Er ist bei guter Gesundheit", meaning "He's in good health". You can clink glasses on each others Gesundheit. Also, you say it to someone who just sneezed, wishing him well in the hope, he/she didn't catch a cold.

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futrtrubl

futrtrubl

Posted
Posted
Playing Kerbal for a very long time now, but since 0.9 Proc Fairings don't open while in mission anymore. Fairings don't part, keep sticking together.

Which fairings are you using? There are fairings that do not decouple, the fuselage fairings that are found in Structural as apposed to the ones found in the Aerodynamics tab.

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Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato

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Posted (edited)
In at least parts of the English-speaking world, "Gesundheit" is the traditional thing to say when someone sneezes. So you hear people say it sarcastically to mean "that made about as much sense as a sneeze" or "that contributed to the conversation about as much as a sneeze."

okay, but that must be something just in the english speaking part of the world, because here in austria (and in germany), it's a regular word, and it's also used when someone sneezes. but not when someone says something useless. and there was a time, when people who try to define what politeness is tried to mark this behavior (saying gesundheit after someone sneezed) as inpolite. but people didn't care and continued to use it.

Edited by Hotblack Desiato
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Kowgan

Kowgan

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Posted

I just came here to state, once more, my love and appreciation for your work, E-dog. Your effort is, and will still be much appreciated in the future.

The new stock fairings won't replace yours in my saves!* Thank you. :)

*Unless, of course, development and support to this mod ceases completely.

And don't get me wrong, SQUAD. I love your work on the new fairings, but my personal preferences stays in this mod.

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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

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Posted (edited)

e-dog,

I'm still hoping to see the new tech-limits I laboriously drew up implemented:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/39512-0-90-Procedural-Fairings-3-11-manual-shape-controls-%28December-17%29?p=1795833&viewfull=1#post1795833

holyfeld,

Regarding the term "Gesundheit", I'm afraid you didn't understand your college German class correctly if you thought "sind" is used to mean "to go" in the sense you use it. You are mis-understanding the use of predicative nouns and predicative adjectives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_verbs#Predicative_nouns_and_predicative_adjectives

In everyday usage "sind" has a meaning that more closely means "to be", as in "Der Bienen sind Insekten" (the bees are insects). Thus, "Gesundheit" means "good health" or "[to return to] good health again".

I guess my high school AP German teacher really *did* know what he was talking about back in the day, although cramming 5 years of material extending all the way from the basics as far as predicative nouns and past participles and such into just 4 years (it was a special "advanced" class) made my head want to explode back then! (and my own knowledge of the subject apparently closely aligns with Wikipedia- not always good...) :huh:

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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e-dog

e-dog

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  • Author
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I'm going to update it for the new stock aerodynamics.

I consider phasing out the current PF bases/sides eventually in favor of a base with part-less sides like the new stock ones, but without the step-by-step construction like stock, just adjustable parameters like the current manual shaping + switchable shapes and textures.

I know some people use shape-locked fairing sides for general construction. Could you give me examples please? I think separate procedural structural parts would be better.

As for the tech tree - the next update will be after KSP 1.0, which overhauls a lot of the tech tree, so I guess a new tech limits will be needed.

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Fail-Man 3D

Fail-Man 3D

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Please don't get rid of the parts based sides. There won't be anything to strut long wobbly payloads to.

Also I won't be able to make launchers like this :(

Seconding this, the current part-based fairings are a great way to add additional structural support.

The design below was inspired by one of the Shuttle-derived expendable proposals, but takes a few design cues from Energia-Polyus.

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Alshain

Alshain

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I'm going to update it for the new stock aerodynamics.

I consider phasing out the current PF bases/sides eventually in favor of a base with part-less sides like the new stock ones, but without the step-by-step construction like stock, just adjustable parameters like the current manual shaping + switchable shapes and textures.

I know some people use shape-locked fairing sides for general construction. Could you give me examples please? I think separate procedural structural parts would be better.

As for the tech tree - the next update will be after KSP 1.0, which overhauls a lot of the tech tree, so I guess a new tech limits will be needed.

If by shape-locked fairings, you mean the ones on the structural tab, that's the best way to do an Apollo-style LM extraction.

jF1EesN.jpg

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