[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[Subcidal]

First time configuring and using TAC LS as ECLSS seems to be crashing my game. Anybody care to explain why the external seat has a life support module on it? What exactly does that module do? Because I've also noticed that Fustek doesn't come with that specific module integrated in the modulemanager config. Wondering if I should add it myself or what.

[TaranisElsu]

First time configuring and using TAC LS as ECLSS seems to be crashing my game. Anybody care to explain why the external seat has a life support module on it? What exactly does that module do? Because I've also noticed that Fustek doesn't come with that specific module integrated in the modulemanager config. Wondering if I should add it myself or what.

The LifeSupportModule does not currently do anything* but it will in a future release. Do not worry about it for now. And when the time comes, I will make sure that it gets added automatically as needed, either through code or ModuleManager configs.

* It actually does do one small thing currently: it is added to supply container parts as a work-around to http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/1989

[undercoveryankee]

No, unfortunately, I was only able to make the recycler work while its the active vessel. The only way to make it work while the vessel is inactive would be to have the plugin calculate it (kind of like what it's doing now to calculate how much of each resource should have been used in the time since the vessel was last active.

I'm pretty sure the TAC recyclers already do that.

Edit: Oops, hit reply before I noticed that I wasn't actually on the most recent page.

[BudgetHedgehog]

So I've been thinking about TACLS for a bit now.. the one thing that has stopped me installing it is the sheer number of parts included. Tiny, small and medium hexcans of 4 different flavours, and then the inline ones too.. It makes the part list crowded in a stock install, let alone a modded one with IR, Near Future, KAS etc.

So here's my idea - TweakScale. Infernal Robotics recently made the switch and dramatically reduced the amount of parts, instead having one part that can be resized in the VAB, with updated stats to match (increased weight, resource etc). By my calculations, you'd only need 5 parts for the basic life support cans - one hexcan of each resource and 1 inline one. Of course, it can't help the recyclers but it'll cut down the hexcans (with each size looking similar to each other in the part list) from 16 to 4.

I've no idea if this is planned or whatever, but it would really be worth taking a look at. Biotronic would, I'm sure, help you and it's just a case of making a cfg for the scale but supporting it by default would a great idea. Thoughts?

[RoverDude]

So I've been thinking about TACLS for a bit now.. the one thing that has stopped me installing it is the sheer number of parts included. Tiny, small and medium hexcans of 4 different flavours, and then the inline ones too.. It makes the part list crowded in a stock install, let alone a modded one with IR, Near Future, KAS etc.

So here's my idea - TweakScale. Infernal Robotics recently made the switch and dramatically reduced the amount of parts, instead having one part that can be resized in the VAB, with updated stats to match (increased weight, resource etc). By my calculations, you'd only need 5 parts for the basic life support cans - one hexcan of each resource and 1 inline one. Of course, it can't help the recyclers but it'll cut down the hexcans (with each size looking similar to each other in the part list) from 16 to 4.

I've no idea if this is planned or whatever, but it would really be worth taking a look at. Biotronic would, I'm sure, help you and it's just a case of making a cfg for the scale but supporting it by default would a great idea. Thoughts?

An option would be to just toss in a MM file for now with TweakScale, then dump most of the parts. One thing I'm toying with on the next MKS version (where I also need to cut down parts) is to make two bits - one a consolidated primitive greenhouse that also consolidates the water purifiers/scrubbers/etc. (about 40% efficiency or so for food, 90% for water/oxygen) paired with a ratio-appropriate LS container with TweakScale, so you are down to two parts.

[Danbearpig]

A little help would be appreciated.

All the TAC Life Support parts seem to be present to use when building ships, but I get no interface or button on the toolbar and Kerbals do not consume resources while on missions. Jeb can go decades in space and never seems to get hungry.

Details:

I installed all the mods from Scott Manley's Interstellar Quest modlist, including the most recent Module Manager and Toolbar bits and all the patches. Life Support works for Scott on his Windows machine, doesn't seem to work for me using MacOSX (don't know if that's the issue). The only error I can find in the log file is this:

Cannot find a Module of typename 'LifeSupportModule'

It appears a few times.

I've finally got most of my mods set up in a way I'd like and I always include life support even though it doesn't consume, but I'd like to really have to keep my Kerbals fed and watered while in the depths of space going space-mad.

Thank you in advance anyone who can help.

[jpkerman]

I just delete everything but the life support tanks. It just leaves me with 3 parts, O2/h2o/co2/food/waste container all in one. If I ever put up a space station I might add back the recyclers but will probably just add that module to the main station crew tank.

[BudgetHedgehog]

All the TAC Life Support parts seem to be present to use when building ships, but I get no interface or button on the toolbar and Kerbals do not consume resources while on missions. Jeb can go decades in space and never seems to get hungry.

Are you doubly sure the TACLS plugin is installed? I recently had a brainfart where all Infernal Robotics parts were available, but I couldn't move them - turns out I'd accidentally deleted the plugin somehow.

[Sabazi]

Question regarding converters: if I leave a ship unfocused for long enough to use up the onboard supplies, but it has converters that would allow it to last longer, then I refocus on it, how does the plugin interpret that?

Basically, do I have to keep switching to a ship for the converters to work properly?

[TaranisElsu]

So I've been thinking about TACLS for a bit now.. the one thing that has stopped me installing it is the sheer number of parts included. Tiny, small and medium hexcans of 4 different flavours, and then the inline ones too.. It makes the part list crowded in a stock install, let alone a modded one with IR, Near Future, KAS etc.

So here's my idea - TweakScale. Infernal Robotics recently made the switch and dramatically reduced the amount of parts, instead having one part that can be resized in the VAB, with updated stats to match (increased weight, resource etc). By my calculations, you'd only need 5 parts for the basic life support cans - one hexcan of each resource and 1 inline one. Of course, it can't help the recyclers but it'll cut down the hexcans (with each size looking similar to each other in the part list) from 16 to 4.

I've no idea if this is planned or whatever, but it would really be worth taking a look at. Biotronic would, I'm sure, help you and it's just a case of making a cfg for the scale but supporting it by default would a great idea. Thoughts?

I have not played with TweakScale myself, but I plan to provide (or have others provide) alternate part packs for compatibility with other mods. I have almost finished one for Modular Fuel Tanks and it will be available in the next release. I also saw that Procedural Parts provides a MM config file for my mod, and I hope to make sure it is compatible with the next release.

A little help would be appreciated.

All the TAC Life Support parts seem to be present to use when building ships, but I get no interface or button on the toolbar and Kerbals do not consume resources while on missions. Jeb can go decades in space and never seems to get hungry.

Details:

I installed all the mods from Scott Manley's Interstellar Quest modlist, including the most recent Module Manager and Toolbar bits and all the patches. Life Support works for Scott on his Windows machine, doesn't seem to work for me using MacOSX (don't know if that's the issue). The only error I can find in the log file is this:

Cannot find a Module of typename 'LifeSupportModule'

It appears a few times.

I've finally got most of my mods set up in a way I'd like and I always include life support even though it doesn't consume, but I'd like to really have to keep my Kerbals fed and watered while in the depths of space going space-mad.

Thank you in advance anyone who can help.

I am pretty sure ObsessedWithKSP is on the right track: What version do you have installed? Where did you download it from? Where is the TacLifeSupport.dll file located? And why won't people upload log files (to Pastebin, Dropbox, whatever)?

Question regarding converters: if I leave a ship unfocused for long enough to use up the onboard supplies, but it has converters that would allow it to last longer, then I refocus on it, how does the plugin interpret that?

Basically, do I have to keep switching to a ship for the converters to work properly?

The mod keeps track of the last time the ship was loaded (i.e. within 2.4 km of the active vessel). The next time the ship is loaded, it calculates how much resources would have been consumed and/or recycled and it catches up over several update frames.

The monitoring window is not aware of recyclers on the ship and so its countdown does not reflect the extra time the resources will last*. The way I do it is: I make sure that my Water and Oxygen will last at least as long as the Food, then I only worry when the Food starts getting low. The included recyclers extend Water and Oxygen by 10x.

* This will not change in the near future because I want to allow others to make recycler parts and I do not know a good way to allow discovering and querying to find the recycling efficiencies.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I have not played with TweakScale myself, but I plan to provide (or have others provide) alternate part packs for compatibility with other mods

Hooray! Tell you what, tomorrow, I'll whip up a cfg that will allow some kind of TweakScaling of TACLS hexcans and if it's to your (and mine) satisfaction, would you be ok with me posting it? I'm glad to hear you're open to the idea at least

[TaranisElsu]

Hooray! Tell you what, tomorrow, I'll whip up a cfg that will allow some kind of TweakScaling of TACLS hexcans and if it's to your (and mine) satisfaction, would you be ok with me posting it? I'm glad to hear you're open to the idea at least

I have no problem with you posting something to help compatibility with other mods. At the very least, I will try to add a link in the OP so others can use it too. I will not guarantee that I will package anything with the mod because I think some things are better left as a separate download for those who want it.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I have no problem with you posting something to help compatibility with other mods. At the very least, I will try to add a link in the OP so others can use it too. I will not guarantee that I will package anything with the mod because I think some things are better left as a separate download for those who want it.

And voila:

Part list after clean up:

I haven't touched the recyclers because I saw they have different conversion amounts and TweakScaling them would change that.

All the sizes available:

0.625 to 5m on the containers and the hexcans.. there's a quite a lot more variety there. From memory, you can limit the amount of sizes but I don't know why you'd want to do that here. Why take extra stuff you don't need?

Resource amounts:

Containers: 30, 240, 1920, 6480, 15360

Hexcans: 3.75, 10.29, 30, 82.32, 240, 659, 1920

As far as I can tell, those are pretty well balanced. The containers have exactly the same amount as the 'stock' ones of them, so.. success! I have used the 1.25m version of the containers and the Normal sized hexcan to tweak, so the others should be removed (all Large and Small versions of both).

And here's the link: https://www./?kpf1t719cn2pvk9

I hope you like it

P.S. - this hasn't been tested on any of the retextures or other models, this is literally just made from/for a 'stock' TACLS install. But if they are literally just textures, there's no reason this wouldn't work on them too.

Edited June 26, 2014 by ObsessedWithKSP

[SpacedInvader]

@Taranis: I was having a look at the spreadsheet for determining the values for the new TACLS system that you linked in the module manager thread and I've got a question. Based on the website you've cited as a source, the average human needs 0.62Kg of food per day, yet you've set the value at 1.8Kg per day. Is this in error, or is there some reasoning for this increase that isn't apparent from the spreadsheet?

Edited June 26, 2014 by SpacedInvader

[somnambulist]

... website you've cited as a source, the average human needs 0.62Kg of food per day, yet you've set the value at 1.8Kg per day. Is this in error, or is there some reasoning for this increase that isn't apparent from the spreadsheet?

The 1.8 kg / day is the allotted consumption on the ISS.

[SpacedInvader]

The 1.8 kg / day is the allotted consumption on the ISS.

Can you link your source for this? So far the only sources that I've been able to find which discuss food by mass include liquid as part of that number. TACLS, on the other hand, separates these values, so that may need to be taken into account.

Also, 1.8Kg (3.97lbs) seems quite excessive, assuming a balanced intake of fat, protein, and carbs, that would be around 10000 calories a day. I know astronauts exercise 2 hours a day, but at those intake levels, people would be swelling up like balloons...

Edited June 26, 2014 by SpacedInvader

[somnambulist]

Can you link your source for this? So far the only sources that I've been able to find which discuss food by mass include liquid as part of that number. TACLS, on the other hand, separates these values, so that may need to be taken into account.

Also, 1.8Kg (3.97lbs) seems quite excessive, assuming a balanced intake of fat, protein, and carbs, that would be around 8000 calories a day. I know astronauts exercise 2 hours a day, but at those intake levels, people would be swelling up like balloons...

The numbers Taranis is using accounts for packaging. Of course you need to adjust for Kerbal metabolism and love of snacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_systems_on_space_exploration_missions

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=nasatr page 55:

Perchonok, et al. (2002) reports a loaded ISS food container for Phase II averages 5.5 kg each and contains nine meals plus snacks. This is equivalent to a single day’s food for three ISS crewmembers. This is equivalent, on average, to 0.611 kg/meal, assuming snacks are extensions of the standard meals, or

1.83 kg/CM-d.

Individual food container masses vary according to individual crew entrée preferences and nutritional requirements, and the containers themselves are placed in racks, incurring a secondary structure penalty not included in the masses above.

Formatting mine and CM-d = crew member day.

[SpacedInvader]

The numbers Taranis is using accounts for packaging. Of course you need to adjust for Kerbal metabolism and love of snacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_systems_on_space_exploration_missions

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=nasatr page 55:

Perchonok, et al. (2002) reports a loaded ISS food container for Phase II averages 5.5 kg each and contains nine meals plus snacks. This is equivalent to a single day’s food for three ISS crewmembers. This is equivalent, on average, to 0.611 kg/meal, assuming snacks are extensions of the standard meals, or

1.83 kg/CM-d.

Individual food container masses vary according to individual crew entrée preferences and nutritional requirements, and the containers themselves are placed in racks, incurring a secondary structure penalty not included in the masses above.

Formatting mine and CM-d = crew member day.

After spending a little time reading through this and then looking into their sources I think the discrepancy in food mass is coming from water content, both in prepackaged foods and also that necessary to hydrate dehydrated foods. If you look at Table 4.3.1 on page 56 of that document, it places a reference value for IVA Food at 0.67kg. It then breaks down the various storage methods and their masses, with the ISS style being the most massive, while carrying the comment "Food as-shipped" indicating pre-prepared foods that do not need additional water for hydration. Anyway, noting the source information for this table as coming from section 7.2.2.2.3 of NASA's Man-Systems Integration Standards, you can find the following figure detailing the food and water mass per CM-d:

Anyway, as you can see, not only is a great deal of the mass of daily food intake coming from hydrating dehydrated products, a full 3kg is coming from water either being consumed as is, or being used to hydrate dehydrated food items, including beverages. Adding in the extra 0.5kg in packaging leaves a remaining value of 0.7kg in actual food mass. That all being said, I'm not really advocating cutting all of the water mass out of the daily food requirement per CM-d, but I think some of that water mass is being included twice, once as pure water, and then again as the hydration necessary for food or beverage items. It may be worthwhile and perhaps somewhat more accurate / realistic to account for this in the food / water masses per CM-d.

EDIT: Also, I found this paper which indicates at the end of paragraph 2 on the first page that the average density of human feces is 1 gram / cm³, which would mean a liter of feces for our purposes should have a mass of 1kg. With an average person producing about 13.3 ounces (~1 for every 12lbs with an average of 160lbs) per day, that means the waste production should be at about 0.38kg rather than 0.11.

Edited June 26, 2014 by SpacedInvader

[Danbearpig]

Wow, very quick replies, and helpful and polite, too! Thanks, guys!

Are you doubly sure the TACLS plugin is installed? I recently had a brainfart where all Infernal Robotics parts were available, but I couldn't move them - turns out I'd accidentally deleted the plugin somehow.

I am pretty sure ObsessedWithKSP is on the right track: What version do you have installed? Where did you download it from? Where is the TacLifeSupport.dll file located? And why won't people upload log files (to Pastebin, Dropbox, whatever)?

Turns out it was the .dll file. I looked, and there was none, so I deleted the TAC Life Support data and re-unzipped the file. There was still no .dll file. So I deleted the .zip, went back to the download link (same link as before, linked from the Scott Manley Interstellar Quest mod list), and this time there was a .dll in the contents of the .zip file. Haven't used it in flight yet, but I got the dialogue window Scott did in his videos this time upon launch of KSP.

Thank you so much!

[SpacedInvader]

@TaranisElsu: I've put together a mod which was originally designed to integrate Universal Storage with TACLS, but has since evolved into a temporary conversion of TACLS to the new unit system. I was thinking about releasing it here as well as there, but I don't want to step on your toes if you'd prefer me to hold off on that.

[Comwarrior]

Hi all,

Whats the current version of TACLS?

I have V0.8.0.4 and i think i've found an error is some of the "TacLifeSupportContainers" config files for loading the model for the parts the use "Model =", I was wondering if this has been fixed and re-released?

thanks

Edit:

The configs that use "MESH =" are ok... the issues lies with the ones that use "MODEL =" as KSP can't find the model.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Comwarrior

[munseeker]

Here is a new greenhouse for TAC LS - the MunSeeker Greenhouse Mk1 based on the stock cupola model:

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The main thread is here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84246-0-23-5-MunSeeker-Greenhouse-Mk1-%28TAC-Life-Support-add-on%29

Download: https://github.com/MunSeeker/Greenhouse-Mk1

Quote from there:

There is some loss in this process, so the crew will still need to be supplied. One greenhouse will use 100% of the waste products of 3 Kerbals (waste, waste water and carbon dioxide) and supply them with 30% oxygen, 60% water and 70% food of their total needs.

Growing food in a cramped greenhouse in zero G is energy intensive. One greenhouse uses about 0.3 Electrical Units per second, or about 1200 per hour (the RTG produces about 0.75/second, so one RTG could supply two greenhouses).

My goal was to realistically extend the food supply for a crew of kerbonauts without completely removing the need of regular resupply missions. This is a good companion to the TAC Carbon Extractor and Water Purifier. The greenhouse is heavy (5.5 tons) and needs oodles of energy, so its use requires careful consideration.

[SpacedInvader]

Here is a new greenhouse for TAC LS - the MunSeeker Greenhouse Mk1 based on the stock cupola model:

http://imgur.com/a/saTQp

The main thread is here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84246-0-23-5-MunSeeker-Greenhouse-Mk1-%28TAC-Life-Support-add-on%29

Download: https://github.com/MunSeeker/Greenhouse-Mk1

Quote from there:

There is some loss in this process, so the crew will still need to be supplied. One greenhouse will use 100% of the waste products of 3 Kerbals (waste, waste water and carbon dioxide) and supply them with 30% oxygen, 60% water and 70% food of their total needs.

Growing food in a cramped greenhouse in zero G is energy intensive. One greenhouse uses about 0.3 Electrical Units per second, or about 1200 per hour (the RTG produces about 0.75/second, so one RTG could supply two greenhouses).

My goal was to realistically extend the food supply for a crew of kerbonauts without completely removing the need of regular resupply missions. This is a good companion to the TAC Carbon Extractor and Water Purifier. The greenhouse is heavy (5.5 tons) and needs oodles of energy, so its use requires careful consideration.

Wouldn't a greenhouse need water rather than supply it?

[Parokki]

Is this mod compatible with Interstellar? For example if I have a station running TAC Life Support in orbit of Laythe, can I restock its water supplies by bringing a bunch up from the surface in storage tanks? Even recyclable waste water? What about turning oxidiser into breathable oxygen?

[tmikesecrist3]

you can use a green hows to purify waste water