Is part clipping considered cheating?

[OrbitusII]

Anyway, my 2c is that since it's a single player game, do what you want.

This ^^

I try to avoid absolutely ridiculous cases of clipping on principle- there's a point where you can't realistically fit more parts in or on the host part, no matter what you do. That being said, I have no problem with clipping parts without the debug menu (for example, RTGs clipped into other parts to save size and aesthetics) and there's a few cases where I use the debug menu with no worries (like avionics packages being stuck into command modules, which will be dealt with in 0.21). There is a fine line between using clipping in an everyday, "it's just a game bug that I can use" fashion and doing it excessively (10 wings in the space of one is ridiculous), and I stay on the everyday game bug side. Generally, I don't clip a lot of parts, simply because my designs don't need it (and I can't get the debug menu with this crappy old keyboard), so I'm sticking with the above quote. It's your game, do what you please with it.

[Sapphire]

I do it if it makes sense and for aesthetic purposes; As I don't use FAR, its only impact is psychological, and as I said I do it if it makes sense. Like I don't know why the 2.5m ASAS is hollow, which is a huge no-no on ships that have to save as much space as possible, so I generally fill that empty space with RCS tanks or batteries or RTGs. Or sometimes I'll merge the ASAS computer with the command module, because it makes sense that it'd be built in. So generally stuff like that. I do consider it cheating, but frankly I don't care. That's the way I enjoy playing, so anyone who doesn't like it can just deal with it!

[The Destroyer]

I only use it when:

A: A mod is being stupid

B: ENGINECLUSTERING

C: Something needs to fit.... but it won't allow it!

[Landge]

I only use it when:

A: A mod is being stupid

B: ENGINECLUSTERING

C: Something needs to fit.... but it won't allow it!

+1

Engine clustering as long as the engines don't overlap. Cowlings and SAS overlapping engines is acceptable.

I will resort to part clipping when the parts are being stubborn and should connect but won't. Like radially mounted tanks not attaching to center tank when not using radial decouplers.

Or nose cones or other parts not attaching to top/bottom of tank even though it's clear of the part that's not letting it connect.

[Yeomans]

I say a reasonable amount of clipping is fair. Seeing as we can only build rockets and planes with the parts we're given, more complicated builds will require a bit more creativity. As of current, we can't incorporate an ASAS unit in our capsule, or build a service module that neatly compacts fuel, RCS, and SAS into one unit. Aircraft wings are limited in the stock parts, so even then we need to be creative when building, and given the current aerodynamic model it usually makes perfect sense. So yes, clipping is fair game to me, as long as it's not completely ridiculous.

[Procyon]

Kerbals have mad engineering skillz, welding torches, big hammers, bailing wire and super glue. The can make some things fit into small spaces, 30 intakes in the same space as 1 seems a bit overkill, fitting a rocket in the fueltank so it looks good I think is totally doable

[sgt_flyer]

Most 'realistic' designs will require atleast to partially clip engines inside the fuel tanks - on most real rockets, you only see the engine nozzles protruding out of the rocket's structure. (and after that, there's the matter that we are limited in engine choices with stock parts)

[sojourner]

I haven't used the devtool to part clip, but I do use any inherent clipping I can get away with if it suits me. Mostly, as said above, for engine clustering. I can get 9 lv-t30's on the bottom of an orange tank without the devtool. It's a sandbox, I don't care how other's play and I just go with what "feels right" when I play.

[Lazro]

I part-clip all the time, but only with structural parts. Clipping a structural fuselage into a tank is fine, because the game currently doesn't have a half-sized structural fuselage. If I clip one horizontally into a fuel tank, then it doesn't add any more functionality than adding a cubic octagonal strut or radial connection point, only heavier and bigger. Clipping tanks into other tanks, though, is a big no-no. I'm not for that.

[katateochi]

I never turn part clipping on in the dev-menu, but I will clip parts together if the editor lets me get away with it. I'm not sure what the difference in that is, but I know that the way I do it I have to coax the editor into allowing some clipping, it happily clips somethings and others it will flatly refuse. I just go with whatever I can get away with without turning clipping on and the reason I do it is always down to aesthetics. I don't consider it cheating.

[leax256]

I'll let you decide.

[cesarcurado]

In my opinion, depends.

If someone is using it to put lots of air intakes of the same spot then yes.

If someone is using it to put fuel tanks inside structural parts (for example) then no.

Plus, part clipping can help solve many things that shouldn't be happening.

Like when you try to add a nose cone to a part with nothing in it's way and it won't let you.

EDIT: Didn't notice "ignoring the concept of intake spam"

Edited July 20, 2013 by cesarcurado

[Merinsan]

I personally consider it cheating, so never do it.

I don't care how you feel about it, or anyone else. You all can play the way you like.

[The Jedi Master]

I don't think it's CHEATING, per say, but I think it looks a bit ugly.

[PIRATEONTHERUN]

Personally, I used to regard part clipping as taboo. Now it is part of my everyday repitoire. I rarely clip much stuff inside of things, mostly just to make it easier to connect stuff, but I really don't care what you use clipping to do.

TL; DR Part clipping is not cheating.

[CptNuts]

Threads like this tend to get annoying very quickly, because as soon as you start asking "Is [what so ever the topic] considered cheating?" The thread will be swarmed with poeple who really think it is cheating, so they can assure you of their point of view and feel good about themselves because they are no cheaters. Most of the others players, who either don't think [the given topic] is cheating, or those who really just don't give a damn, won't really much reply in a thread like this.

This is not Counter Strike, CoD, WoW or any other Competitive Massively multiplayer online game. It is a sandbox. The only person you can cheat here, is yourself. If you feel cheated by yourself, then do not do it, if you do not feel cheated, feel free to do what ever you like.

For example, a while ago i encountered the deuterium tanks and engines of a mod, who were designed and shared for testing purposes, to easily bring a craft somewhere, to be able to test a design, without the use of hyper edit. I used them, smiled like an idiot and then deleted it again, because it just didn't feel right.

Play the way you like to play, and do not judge other players by your style of playing!

Just my 2 cents.

[TMS]

The day NASA builds craft with vital components hanging off the side of it, is the day I'll consider clipping cheating.

[Sean Mirrsen]

On the absolutely literal side of the question, the debug menu is a developer tool for testing the game without constraints. Since embedded developer testing tools have always been called "cheats" when used by the players themselves (see: the various console commands, /give commands, god mode, etc, across the entire genre spectrum), then by sheer definition, using the debug menu to enable part clipping is, in fact, cheating. Or, if you can sense the difference, it's using cheats.

The regular part-clipping mechanic, though, is an exploit. It's half bug, half unfinished feature, that lets you sort of do something like what the debug-menu version allows.

The difference is in the how of the thing. There are two primary "branches" to part clipping usage, in my eyes. The first is the intended use - the reason the bug/feature persists is that it allows people to place items that should be placeable, but due to whichever shortcoming of collision-detection, aren't. People use it to cluster engines (less useful now that multicouplers are there), put fuel tanks and engines in the middle of wings, attach stubborn parts, and so on. I am perfectly fine with clipping being used this way, as, really, that's what it's there for. But then there's the other branch, which I can't call anything but "abuse" - intake spam, wing spam, putting engines inside structural pieces, overlapping fuel tanks with something (the tank's already occupied with fuel - if you clip something into it, you should have less fuel, but it doesn't work that way yet), generally abusing the clipping mechanic, with the debug menu or without, in order to create a craft that functions better than it looks like it should. I admire KSP for the way how both visual and functional design combine in it. It's a challenge to make something that both looks, and works good, especially with limitations imposed by stock parts, and I feel that using - abusing - the clipping mechanic to cut corners and take shortcuts through this process, is cheating, in the worst sense of the word.

But anyway. As many people have said, this is still a singleplayer game, and you are free to play it as you wish.

Just be mindful of that, and don't boast in front of other players how you can create the sleekest and awesomest craft ever, conveniently forgetting to mention how you got it to work that way.

[Whirligig Girl]

no its not cheating.

EDIT: ^what he said.

Edited July 21, 2013 by GregroxMun

[regex]

Threads like this tend to get annoying very quickly, because as soon as you start asking "Is [what so ever the topic] considered cheating?" The thread will be swarmed with poeple who really think it is cheating, so they can assure you of their point of view and feel good about themselves because they are no cheaters. Most of the others players, who either don't think [the given topic] is cheating, or those who really just don't give a damn, won't really much reply in a thread like this.

Posts like this in an opinion thread get annoying very quickly. Only one person can be cheating in a single-player game and there's no real authority for other players to appeal your play style to as cheating, so any queries regarding what is considered "cheating" are merely statements of preference.

Why do you think people who play differently than you care so much about how you play? No one is judging you; quit projecting your insecurities on others.

Edited July 21, 2013 by regex
dumbass phone

[Flixxbeatz]

Not cheating, and no one restricts you to do so.

Except for some challenges that won't allow you to use the Debug Console.

[Sof]

It is cheating if you use it to make a design more powerful than it should be by hiding engines in engines or fuel tanks in fuel tanks intake spam. Much like mechjeb, it takes the fun out of the game and essentially makes it pointless.

[sojourner]

Other forums have "godwins". KSP has "mechjeb".

[Flixxbeatz]

Other forums have "godwins". KSP has "mechjeb".

Something I've farted out on Excel regarding about the matter:

And we're still just at page 5!

[Sapphire]

Other forums have "godwins". KSP has "mechjeb".

I never made this connection before, and now that I look at it, it's hilarious and so true.