Come back old ASAS - all is forgiven!

[ComradeGoat]

I have a hypothesis.

I believe the new SAS is pretty dependent on the physics delta set in the settings. If this is accurate, then every single person having jet SAS trouble has altered those sliders.

Nope. Haven't touched it.

[Mulbin]

I added 5. Still no better.... and 2.5 tons heavier.

To sum up.... 1 large pod, 2 cupolas, 5 SAS (whatever they are called now) 1 small ASAS and 1 large ASAS. Still uncontrollable far worse rocket wobble than .20

Will try switching of pod torque to see if it is a bug.

[ComradeGoat]

The Answer!

Guys, this is how to do it.

OVERVIEW

Basically, Squad tuned down the ASAS's torque. But, this is were it reveals the true purpose of the ASAS.

The ASAS was originally made to control the SAS, winglets, and RCS of a space craft. I think everyone is now simply just using ASAS, winglets, anda few RCS ports here and there. But, to get the full use of ASAS, add more SAS modules.

Here is a vessel I made to prove this theory:

So, to sum it up, SAS modules add torque. That's all we are missing from the ASAS from last time. Torque.

The craft causing the problems have sufficient torque to overcome them. They can be controlled manually and hold a heading. They will not hold a heading under SAS. The problem is not insufficient torque. The problem is that SAS isn't using it.

[ComradeGoat]

I built a pretty simple orbiter a few minutes ago, worked pretty well getting out of the atmosphere but once I dropped the ascent stage the little orbiter wouldn't even bother using engine gimbal to stay on course. Granted, I deliberately added a single radial parachute to put it slightly off-balance, but it's like the ASAS isn't bothering to use the tools available to it.

Exactly what I'm seeing. It's a bit frustrating to see people going, "JUST ADD MORE TORQUE!" when there is plenty available, but just isn't being used.

[asae]

My plane will not hold a heading in vacuum under a tiny amount of thrust. How am I supposed to do orbital transfers like that?

Re-learn everything you know about flying in KSP it seems. You are one of those who are too used to the 'will keep heading even if it rips ship apart' asas.

[ComradeGoat]

Put an ASAS module on your ship (the large one, which is now the only one) and watch it perform normally again.

That's too big to put on planes.

[boxman]

Haven't tried it with rockets yet, but it's making my spaceplanes much harder to fly. Firstly, the claim that it allows you to adjust one axis while keeping the other 2 stable seems to be false. I'm getting phantom rolls when I yaw and pitch, phantom pitches when I do the other two, and so-on.

Secondly, the "lock to heading" functionality is completely gone. The thing will drift, regardless.

I did a quick spaceplane build myself just to test it out and both worked just fine here. Are you sure it is balanced properly??

My feeling is that the new ASAS is not as powerful as before so it probably needs to be more balanced. I also fear that you might have more such issues with larger builds, but I havent tested that out yet.

[ComradeGoat]

personally I like the changes and am not having anywhere near the troubles others are having. had to make a few changes especially where probe cores were involved but other than that seems to work great. either its a bug that only effects certain computer configurations or maybe a misunderstanding on what sas is/how it works?

I don't know. Is "what SAS is" equivalent to "a device to make an orbiting vehicle thrust in a circle"?

[Benie]

The only time I had ever use Winglets on a rocket, was back in 0.16. All of my rockets have been winglet-free in 0.20 and have turned with little to no problem. Only reason they spun out or didn't turn fast enough to do a burn, was design flaws. I guess I got lucky.

They always had ASAS.

And this is a good reason to stay away from this update. One because it breaks saves (though isn't that big of a deal for me, to be honest). Two because some mods that I use are broken (with time, they might/will be updated). And three, this.

From what I'm hearing, about the new ASAS having less torque, it makes you feel you downgraded back to before there was even ASAS in the game. It made me lose interest in it. We all have our own playst-- *sigh*

I'll just be over here in this corner, wishing I could play another game if it wasn't for my motherboard. Just wasting my breath here. This is SQUAD's game, and if they want to do changes like this, we can't do anything about it except not play it or stick with 0.20 (which I'm doing). That's the reality.

I'm just glad that their launcher of the online store version, doesn't keep pestering you to update like Minecraft's does.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Benie

[RepoRogue]

Re-learn everything you know about flying in KSP it seems. You are one of those who are too used to the 'will keep heading even if it rips ship apart' asas.

I'd agree with you, but all of my planes have had far far worse wobble with ASAS in 0.21 then 0.20. (And no, I haven't copied over anything from my 0.20 saves, all of things I've tried to fly have been stock and built entirely in 0.21.) The new ASAS appears to be bipolar. It either does hardly anything, or is even more destructive than the old one.

Very oddly, it performs exactly as it was shown to in the preview videos while my planes are over 5-6 km. But under that altitude, they're nauseatingly wobbly. Rockets control alright with the new ASAS, although they do have a tendency to drift about as badly as if they were left alone while in space.

[boxman]

I'm flying craft that held a heading perfectly, with barely any control surface deflection in 0.20, and they Will. Not. Hold. A. Heading.

Furthermore, they won't even hold a heading in space.

That might mean that your original design was not suited for the new ASAS. You should try to build a new one from scratch like I did which worked perfectly.

The old ASAS was way overkill when it comes to torque so I guess it just cannot keep up with your design.

[ComradeGoat]

Add more control devices guys, it's important.

Beyond rocket gimbals, RCS, command pod torque and a set of reaction wheels, what am I supposed to be adding? The stuff is there, but the SAS system is simply not using it. The rocket *can* fly in a straight line because I can do it manually. SAS just ... doesn't.

[Coneshot]

I have been flying this plane while alt+tabbed reading this forum for like an hour now.. smooth as silk flat and level totally stock. there isn't even an external ASAS just the cockpit:

maybe this is a clue.. I hope everyone who is having trouble finds a solution.. good luck!

[ComradeGoat]

maybe this is a clue.. I hope everyone who is having trouble finds a solution.. good luck!

Nope. Just having the command pod SAS still makes the thing wander about like a wandering thing.

[boxman]

I'm getting the impression that the "testing" of the new "feature" was only done on very basically constructed rockets like the pre-made ones. Sadly I think this will kill off the more adventurous and elegant designs and force us to fly the miserable stacks of dustbins squad seem to want us to fly.

You should check out EJ's ksptv stream.. He managed to get his crazy non symmetrical shuttle into space more easily using the new ASAS/reaction wheels.

[Merinsan]

Just did a test trip to the Mun and back.

I messed up the rocket design, and didn't put gimbaling engines for the final stage of the assent stages. It was a cluster of 4 engines.

I had enough fuel on the ascent stage it to get me to the Mun, the problem though was the torque of the capsules was not enough to keep the ship flying straight. It was unable to even stop rotation, while I could manually. Previously the old ASAS would have worked easily for that.

Once I ditched that stage, the SAS worked well with the gimbaling engines.

It made landing much easier for me.

[purpletarget]

Be sure to read the pod descriptions. Only Manned pods are "SAS equipped" by default. So if you have a probe controlled craft, the SAS functionality will do nothing, just like 0.20 ships without ASAS installed. If you want SAS to do anything with a probe body, then you have to add one of the other SAS equipped parts, which include the Old ASAS 1m & 2.5m parts, or the Avionics nosecone thingy.

[Guest]

My first few flights with rockets were awesome, I loved it, until I started adding jets. The jets are acting really screwy and are all over the place.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Otis
grammar

[RocketPilot573]

I cant believe that I'm saying this, but I want Mechjeb back, and I don't care if it makes everything wobble.

[ComradeGoat]

Re-learn everything you know about flying in KSP it seems. You are one of those who are too used to the 'will keep heading even if it rips ship apart' asas.

I am talking about a tiny amount of gimbal correction needed to overcome the fact that my plane has a rudder sticking up out of the back, because planes need those. The only way to fly it on a constant heading in space is to keep pitching down every few seconds myself. What exactly is it I'm supposed to be learning here? How precisely do I build a craft that will make SAS take control of the rocket gimbals, like it is supposed to, and fly the thing without veering off course? Please explain, because it really isn't clear.

[boxman]

Hmm.. I kinda wonder if there could be a bug in some of the command pods?? The one I tested with was the new cupola module and it seemed to work perfectly with my spaceplane. Would be interesting if people could also post which pod they use in case it is just some of them that are bugged.

[RocketPilot573]

I am talking about a tiny amount of gimbal correction needed to overcome the fact that my plane has a rudder sticking up out of the back, because planes need those. The only way to fly it on a constant heading in space is to keep pitching down every few seconds myself. What exactly is it I'm supposed to be learning here? How precisely do I build a craft that will make SAS take control of the rocket gimbals, like it is supposed to, and fly the thing without veering off course? Please explain, because it really isn't clear.

You can't, the new SAS is the Avionics Package in disguise. It will only kill rotation, not hold your ship to a certain heading. Maybe sticky keys will help...

[Aragosnat]

Be sure to read the pod descriptions. Only Manned pods are "SAS equipped" by default. So if you have a probe controlled craft, the SAS functionality will do nothing, just like 0.20 ships without ASAS installed. If you want SAS to do anything with a probe body, then you have to add one of the other SAS equipped parts, which include the Old ASAS 1m & 2.5m parts, or the Avionics nosecone thingy.

Uhm. They all come with a reaction wheel built in. Except the "EAS-1 External Command Seat." Which has none. Probes have less then 1.5 torque with the smallest having a torque of 0.2. So why do the probes have torque if S.A.S. is not equiped? I find that strange.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Aragosnat

[ComradeGoat]

Hmm.. I kinda wonder if there could be a bug in some of the command pods?? The one I tested with was the new cupola module and it seemed to work perfectly with my spaceplane. Would be interesting if people could also post which pod they use in case it is just some of them that are bugged.

This plane generates phantom off-axis rotation forces in atmosphere. In space, it will pitch up constantly under thrust unless I correct it manually (which is has more than enough manoeuvrability to do). SAS simply can't fly it. I can fly and land it manually, but SAS is worse than useless.

[carazvan]

I've been trying to figure out what is wrong with ASAS for a while now to get my SSTOs back to flying but the general feel I get with SAS now is like I am flying the plane without it, having to constantly do adjustments.

Now the problem that I've been able to see is that yes the ASAS does see the imbalances and tries to overcome them but it does so very very slowly (guessing they did it this way to use less RCS fuel) which is great if you're trying to lessen woble ... but bad if you're trying to hold a direction in atmo.

In level flight this seems to be less noticeable but under large angles (aka 45*climb) any touch of the controls makes the plane drop ~20*. If you look in the bottom left you can see that ASAS is 'trying' to hold the direction but only applying the smallest amount possible which doesn't balance out the normal forces up until it gets higher (0.5-1s later) (therefore it takes about 20* for the SAS to actually do it's job of holding the direction) ...

As far as the random direction rolls and yawns I'm guessing these were normal turbulence before in 0.20 but the SAS was correctly stopping it early ... now because it's trying to save force/fuel it's not stopping it in time hence the drifts also in space.

Now for all people who are saying the new SAS is great ... it does improve on many things, fuel use, ability to use in flight, less wobble etc. but if it can't hold a heading for a SSTO in atmo that's an entire class of vehicles that just became 'manual only' flight.