Come back old ASAS - all is forgiven!

[harharluke]

Haven't read many of the posts because 23 pages but I've flown 2 ships so far with the new ASAS and it has been the first time I've fully piloted a craft without Mechjeb since 0.17 and the new ASAS works beautifully, it held my ships in place and stayed where I told it too I haven't had a single problem with it and I haven't done a manual launch in months

[carazvan]

Ok so after some more playing around I think the SAS is trying to do the right thing it's just not applying the torque/control it has available quickly enough ... which in space is relatively ok (for holding burn directions as some people mentioned it might not be) but in the air trying to climb in a SSTO is a problem.

So I've been thinking of what a solution could be and maybe what we could have is the SAS have 3 separate control levels that are toggled with the following scheme:

mild - applies control/torque same as it does now ... this uses less RCS fuel and control surfaces

moderate - applies same process but 5-10x control torque vs what it does now ... this would use more fuel but I think it might provide better response especially for high atmo or high pitch flight

full - applies full control for imbalances (similar to old SAS) ... this would use full RCS fuel and control surfaces similar to 0.20 system

[skyace65]

I would be saying "Hell yeah! Take that, game maker!" But in all reality, it's their game. And I've learned over the years of multiple games, that if the devs do something that upsets people but makes others praise them (like this), there's nothing really you can do about it except play another game.

I seriously doubt they did this to piss people off. I mean, think about it, this game, like Minecraft was, is the first of its kind. There's always going to be awesome things that are added, and some awesome things will break (or in this case, stop working to make it the way the devs wanted it to be). That's how development works.

while I can respect the devs the game is made to serve the fans. devs managing the general direction the game goes I am completely fine with, but downgrading a core feature to make it harder than ever to fly a rocket is going too far.

this isn't even an easy game! we are talking about a game that takes true skill to master and now something that was once a good tool to use has now become a huge difficulty spike the game doesn't need.

[Captain Sierra]

Have you launched anything heavy? SO far, the problem is the SAS isn't aggressive enough on ships that require a fair bit of force and basically need to be manhandled to an extent.

[Beachernaut]

So I've been thinking of what a solution could be and maybe what we could have is the SAS have 3 separate control levels that are toggled with the following scheme:

mild - applies control/torque same as it does now ... this uses less RCS fuel and control surfaces

moderate - applies same process but 5-10x control torque vs what it does now ... this would use more fuel but I think it might provide better response especially for high atmo or high pitch flight

full - applies full control for imbalances (similar to old SAS) ... this would use full RCS fuel and control surfaces similar to 0.20 system

I think that would be a great solution. OTOH I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, or if it's even feasible.

[Giggleplex777]

My plane's doing back flips with SAS.

And this is the Aeris 3A

[CaptRobau]

I would be saying "Hell yeah! Take that, game maker!" But in all reality, it's their game. And I've learned over the years of multiple games, that if the devs do something that upsets people but makes others praise them (like this), there's nothing really you can do about it except play another game.

I seriously doubt they did this to piss people off. I mean, think about it, this game, like Minecraft was, is the first of its kind. There's always going to be awesome things that are added, and some awesome things will break (or in this case, stop working to make it the way the devs wanted it to be). That's how development works.

Just let the devs fine-tune one of the most far-reaching changes to the game ever, instead of saying you either need to live with it or play another game. Some patience might make ASAS awesome again for both the people who are now saying nay and yay.

[-RanZ-]

Interesting... I was having the problem and I pressed F once and it fixed it across the board on all my vessels!

[Captain Sierra]

I think that would be a great solution. OTOH I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, or if it's even feasible.

I think if there is any solution squad should take away from here, that's it.

THere is one other problem I always see with SAS though. SAS applies force toward the target orientation until it overshoots and THEN it corrects. What if it corrected before reaching desired orientation so it stopped at the target orientation, not too unlike a human pilot. It could then be more aggressive and still not wobble stuff apart.

[jshier]

I've come to agree with those who say the new ASAS just isn't strong enough sometimes. Holding heading is a fundamental part of a stabilizer and the ASAS should be able to use the full strength of every control surface available to do so.

[GusTurbo]

My plane's doing back flips with SAS.

And this is the Aeris 3A

Isn't that that one they used in several of the .21 preview videos?

[jshier]

Interesting... I was having the problem and I pressed F once and it fixed it across the board on all my vessels!

Toggling the ASAS does seem to make it more likely to hold a particular heading, but only as well as it was able to hold the initial heading. Your craft can certainly still veer from the heading.

[-RanZ-]

Toggling the ASAS does seem to make it more likely to hold a particular heading, but only as well as it was able to hold the initial heading. Your craft can certainly still veer from the heading.

my problem was I had constant torque going 1 direction on all my vessels I launched. Pressing F for 1 second fixed that. Maybe there are more than 1 issue going on

[Fleb]

Just put together a biplane in 0.21, and it was steady as a rock with sas on, for me.

[Kosmo-not]

If the main problem is that it's optimized for small craft, then a solution would be to scale the ASAS inputs to the rotational inertia in the 3 primary directions. That shouldn't be hard to implement.

There is another issue (which the video posted in this thread shows) in that sometimes the ASAS will cease to work when pointed near the prograde direction (at least in the atmosphere).

And to those who think it doesn't try to hold a heading: it does try to hold a heading, but sucks at it right now for larger craft.

[Giggleplex777]

Isn't that that one they used in several of the .21 preview videos?

On my trip to the new mountains, it did 22 backflips. The final of which, killed Jeb. I can even take it past 6km before EPICFLIPPYFLATSPINSPARKSEXTRAVAGANZA.

[Kosmo-not]

On my trip to the new mountains, it did 22 backflips. The final of which, killed Jeb. I can even take it past 6km before EPICFLIPPYFLATSPINSPARKSEXTRAVAGANZA.

I think that would be due to bad plane design.

[Pingonaut]

So far I've found it more useful, I don't know what the problem is.

[moxzot]

you guys just need to design a plane around the new sas if you are having such problems with your current OLD planes

[Pingonaut]

you guys just need to design a plane around the new sas if you are having such problems with your current OLD planes

I think that's probably part of the problem. All of these designs are based around old system.

[NoMrBond]

First couple of test flights with the new RW/ASAS during my lunch break sure felt weird, but I didn't feel like there was a major problem, construction time was pretty limited though so I didn't get to fly anything hefty, hopefully I can salvage some old save designs

Certainly noticed a lot less force/push available from control components, but the way CM's could effortlessly wag a hundred tons of rocket behind it previously also felt weird.

I didn't immediately see a 2.5m reaction wheel for shoving around the larger rockets in the parts so I guess I'll be rescaleFactor implementing one (or editing the NPv2 SAS parts) later tonight for controlling heavier beasts, unless NPv2.0.2 is already out before I finish work

[RocketPilot573]

I think that's probably part of the problem. All of these designs are based around old system.

Aircrafts are supposed to use control surfaces, no? Last I checked plane don't need reaction wheels...

[Redpossum]

it's the demon spawn of Satan trying its hardest to kill anyone who goes near it.

Sounds like you've met my ex!

[Giggleplex777]

I think that would be due to bad plane design.

No, flies fine with SAS off.

[PwnedDuck]

I'll put this into a simple before-after review of my experiences:

Gravity Turns:

Before: lean over slowly and then activate SAS: ship stops leaning, achieves spaceflight.

After: leave SAS on, lean over, ship continues leaning way more than needed, begins to roll. Fight it into appropriate place, and it leans over again. Fight it back, cycle SAS, ship begins to move in complete wrong direction (towards vertical). Continue fighting all the way up to orbit.

That is worse. I am expending more effort on more pointless busywork. Constantly pressing A and D where I should really be focusing on other things is not an upgrade. At all.

Maneuvering in space:

Before: slowly point onto node, activate SAS, wait five seconds for full adjustment then warp to burn, where I do absolutely nothing because the ship remains pointed along the node.

After: slowly point onto node, activate SAS. Ship continues to drift, and comes to a stop several degrees off the node. Activate fine tune controls and make tiny taps until I am on the node, then activate Time acceleration to stop SAS messing it up. Come out of warp at burn point. During burn, must repeatedly correct for SAS doing naff-all to stay pointed.

This.Is.Worse. I should be able to make my ship be pointed in the right direction without drifiting, and not have to exploit the fact that time warp puts physics on rails to do that.

Stations.

Before: SAS is useless, and just creates constant vibrations. RCS would just be wasted. Exploit time warp to orientate stations.

After: move station into correct position, activate SAS, station comes to a stop about 30 degrees off of where SAS was activated, where it should be facing. Huh. Better just use time warp.

Conclusion: SAS is now avionics package in disguise, but is also heavier and requires electricity. Manila input is constantly required to maintain heading. Fun fun fun!

I'm not coming back to .21 till this changes, or till mechjeb is back. Snazzy new parts are not worth this nonsense.