[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[localSol]

[from above..]

[...]I'm trying to present it as something that has some real and useful advantages but also a few slightly irritating drawbacks.

Good about the technology.. Most of that is over my head but I'm glad there are enthusiasts who know about nuclear technology.

The variety in the Interstellar pack is good for KSP. I know balance is a hard thing to do, adding a new part or a change to one part can change the whole balance but it can be fun to see what happens. I'll be glad if you decide to do any sort of texture pack option. I read pieces here and there about a newish part.cfg 'texture = ..., mesh = ... 'option to load textures without needing to overwrite anything.. If modulemanager can work with that too, that seems like an even better way.

[K3-Chris]

btw can 2 reactors share one electrical generator between them?

[Jaevko]

Hey Fractal_UK, this is a fantastic mod; you've made something really awesome here!

The wiki seems to be down (the main page still loads, but not any of the other pages). Could you please post the wiki pages to this thread that way they are safely preserved/easily accessed?

Edited November 14, 2013 by Jaevko

[Fractal_UK]

New Nuclear Reactor Models

Thanks to some great modelling and texturing work by Vaporlynx (and a tiny bit of tweaking by me), I finally have a set of new nuclear reactor models that look really nice and don't cause problems with radial attachments. This is a bit of a godsend because after all this work on new nuclear stuff, having new models to make them look nice is so handy so I have to give a lot of credit to Vaporlynx for taking the time to do this.

Now, ZZZ has already provided the existing 1.25m KIWI model. Now, this gave me the option of either sticking with the same model for the 1.25m reactor OR using ZZZ's model to do something else. Since I like doing doing new things, see below for what I've done with it.

For now, here's a shot of the new nuclear reactor set in the VAB.

Fusion Reactors

Yes, some of you may have guessed it. Why not turn the KIWI model into a fusion reactor?

Now, fusion reactors are a little bit funny, they aren't like other reactors because they need a constant supply of electrical power in order to function. Once they are running, that is not a problem, provided you keep them with a generator, they will fulfill their own power requirements with ease. The only problem is if for some reason your reactor shutsdown (overheating or whatever) you may not only lose power but also the ability to restart your reactor. In other words: be careful about turning your fusion reactors off!

I thought it'd test it out on a plane, so I have to build a little assembly to make it work. Once the reactor is started, we can dump the launch clamps and fly! Using Fusion Power, we have something much more readily flyable than those heavy and slow fission planes.

As you can see from the pictures below, the fusion reactor is, like the nuclear reactors, capable of breeding tritum. You can thus carry a supply of Lithium with you in order to breed more fuel.

---

btw can 2 reactors share one electrical generator between them?

I'm afraid not.

Edit:

The wiki seems to be down (the main page still loads, but not any of the other pages). Could you please post the wiki pages to this thread that way they are safely preserved/easily accessed?

Fixed.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Fractal_UK

[Kenken244]

Ooh, very cool. Although, the new model for nuclear reactors seems like it would be better suited for a tokomak fusion reactor.

[redshift690]

Love the models Fractal! Very excited for the next update!

[Scotius]

Awesome looking reactors And fusion power. Finally. Wohhooo Couple of questions: Will fusion reactor be upgradeable? If yes...Polywell? And another: When we need to start\restart a fusion reactor, what secondary power source we'd need? Couple of Gigantors? Small nuclear reactor? Big nuclear reactor?

[Tommygun]

With all the new reactors you have are you considering anything new for the generators?

Anything like mercury powered turbines or something more exotic?

[K3-Chris]

My permanent kerbin-based AM generator just became a bit more permanent than originally intended, KAS to the rescue, I'm sure the reactor being detached from all the cooling for a while is fine while my trusty nuclear engineer hooked up some pipes next to the reactor...

Those extending radiators seem fine in atmo, expected them to work like solar arrays and snap when switching craft etc but they're holding up.

[Fractal_UK]

Awesome looking reactors And fusion power. Finally. Wohhooo Couple of questions: Will fusion reactor be upgradeable? If yes...Polywell? And another: When we need to start\restart a fusion reactor, what secondary power source we'd need? Couple of Gigantors? Small nuclear reactor? Big nuclear reactor?

Yes, they are upgradeable - in fact, that one is upgraded. The basic version is called "D-T Inertial Fusion" as opposed to "High-Q Inertial." The High-Q might, at some point in the future, have options to use He-3 fuel, which would be unique in that the reactor would generate mostly Megajoules instead of ThermalPower - He-3 + He-3 fusion has really low neutronicity so you can just extract electricity directly from the charged products as they move through a magnetic field. That would make it particularly suited to running electric engines but far worse for thermal engines.

And another: When we need to start\restart a fusion reactor, what secondary power source we'd need? Couple of Gigantors? Small nuclear reactor? Big nuclear reactor?

There is no special power requirement to starting it, you just need to be able to fill the ongoing 7MW cost of running the laser. So the KIWI is the minimum starter reactor.

Those extending radiators seem fine in atmo, expected them to work like solar arrays and snap when switching craft etc but they're holding up.

It's custom code based on dynamic pressure, you should be fine so long as you don't drive them around too fast.

With all the new reactors you have are you considering anything new for the generators?

Anything like mercury powered turbines or something more exotic?

No firm plans at the moment but I'm always considering options.

[Cairan]

Don't know, even after searching a bit the thread, if this has been covered or commented on yet, but a splashed generator might not need radiators to keep cool ... You have an abundant liquid heat sink surrounding the vessel and in direct contact with it... Thermal capacity of water vs air is 20 times more conductive of heat and 4 times the heat capacity... Might be an interesting power option for floating bases on Eve or Laythe.

On a side note, with the generators it is possible to generate electric charge from megajoules, but would it be possible to toggle a generator so that it generates megajoules from electric charge, say to jump start a fusion reactor from a battery bank?

[Hremsfeld]

Maybe-quick question: Are there any plans to use the radiation exposure from the last few pages, or is it just a gee-whiz sort of thing?

Edit: ^^^^^I like that idea, but my inner engineer feels compelled to point out it sounds like it'd be a job more suited to capacitors than to batteries.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Hremsfeld

[Srilania]

Yeah, got it, thanks. I've been experimenting with it a bit.

The reason that Thorium is good with respect to nuclear waste is that it is lighter than Uranium, as Uranium absorbs neutrons you get transuranic elements immediately while Thorium has to work up through a chain of several neutron captures in order to reach the same point and that's far less likely to happen, of course, you're dealing with massive collections of atoms so that just translates to a smaller proportion of those atomic species.

You can usually do something with actinide products when you have a breeder reactor though and turn them into something useful, you're much better off with short-lived high activity fission products than a bunch of actinide waste.

LFTR is a really neat design but I think it has been both over and under-hyped by different groups respectively. I'd guess it'll take some time before we see their deployment because I don't see a major pressure to switch to Thorium fuel, Uranium is already so abundant we could use it virtually forever without risk of running out and the Uranium infrastructure is already there, so it might take a while before people start heavily investing in Thorium alternatives. One of the main pressures for that might be in selling LFTRs to non-nuclear weapon states because thorium reactors are harder to produce weapons grade material from, existing nuclear states might prefer to use their large stockpiles of existing waste as fuel.

I'm trying to present it as something that has some real and useful advantages but also a few slightly irritating drawbacks.

The main advantages to the LFTR reactors is that thorium is a lot more common than uranium, it takes a lot less ore to run a reactor, (1 ton compared to 150 tons of uranium ore) uses less fuel to generate the same ammount of electricity (1 ton of thorium compared to 35 tons of uranium) and the LFTR reactors are pretty foolproof, using less than 1 atmosphere of operating pressure, thermal breeding creating less inherant neutron radiation than fast breeders, liquid fuel can expand as it overheats, slowing reaction and preventing meltdown, and the freeze plug allows for dumping the fuel into a 100% passively cooled tank, preventing a chernobyl or fukushima type meltdown. Reason we're not using it? There's too much money to be made with the current system. That's the ONLY reason.

[Cairan]

Yeah, the radiation exposure of Kerbals is quite a nice touch... Now, if we wanted to be nasty, you might even think about generating science with EVA reports from radiation sickened Kerbals... 3:)

About the generators, seems from your pictures that indeed a generator can provide megajoules from electric charge, nevermind my previous remark if this is the case...

[Cairan]

That's the ONLY reason.

Actually, the real reason is that most countries chose to go the U235 way because it yields Pu239... Big Bada Boom stuff, whereas Th232 needs to be neutron activated to become fissionable, then yields some U233 which isn't quite as weaponizable as the U235/Pu239 path... We got stuck with an uranium-based infrastructure, and with all the anti-nukes out there, there is 0 public interest in our socities to switch to another not-yet-demonstrated nuclear cycle...

It sucks.

[Donziboy2]

Actually, the real reason is that most countries chose to go the U235 way because it yields Pu239... Big Bada Boom stuff, whereas Th232 needs to be neutron activated to become fissionable, then yields some U233 which isn't quite as weaponizable as the U235/Pu239 path... We got stuck with an uranium-based infrastructure, and with all the anti-nukes out there, there is 0 public interest in our socities to switch to another not-yet-demonstrated nuclear cycle...

It sucks.

Both systems were studied at the same time, but everyone wanted breeders to make bombs more then they wanted electrical power.

[Fractal_UK]

The main advantages to the LFTR reactors is that thorium is a lot more common than uranium, it takes a lot less ore to run a reactor, (1 ton compared to 150 tons of uranium ore) uses less fuel to generate the same ammount of electricity (1 ton of thorium compared to 35 tons of uranium)

This is an advantage of Thorium.

and the LFTR reactors are pretty foolproof, using less than 1 atmosphere of operating pressure, thermal breeding creating less inherant neutron radiation than fast breeders, liquid fuel can expand as it overheats, slowing reaction and preventing meltdown, and the freeze plug allows for dumping the fuel into a 100% passively cooled tank, preventing a chernobyl or fukushima type meltdown. Reason we're not using it? There's too much money to be made with the current system. That's the ONLY reason.

This is an advantage of Molten Salt reactors, Uranium or Thorium and many of the other countless Generation IV reactor designs with passive safety features.

Disadvantages of Thorium include there is no infrastructure set up for Thorium fuel production, as far as I'm aware even the prototype LFTRs have usually gone straight to the stage of using U-233 rather than actually starting with the Thorium so all of that would have to be established. Protractium-233 has a long half-life and is bred as an intermediary between Th-232 and U-233, meaning you have to take it out or suffer from it degrading your neutron economy until it decays to U-233 which complicates operation. You also can't just start with a Thorium fuel cycle, you need some kind of neutron source to get the whole thing going.

Don't get me wrong, LFTR is a neat idea but there are lots of other good nuclear designs out there, Uranium and Thorium. Choosing between them on abudance grounds is pointless, there is enough Uranium available on land to power the world for thousands of years and enough in the sea for hundreds of thousands at only moderately increased cost - I estimate 40,000 tons of Uranium per year for 100,000 years - enough for 40,000 1GW plants (or 2.5x current worldwide energy useage). Breeder reactors might multiply that by another 100 or 200 so there's a fair bit of room to increase both supply and lifetime simultaneously. So, Thorium has plenty of time to catch up.

The main pressures I can see for Thorium use are in countries without domestic Uranium supplies already available (like India, which is actively pursuing Thorium research) or development in western countries to sell proliferation resistant power plants to other countries.

Personally, I don't really care which fuel future nuclear reactors use, countries can build whichever is most convenient for them for all I care. A nuclear plant of any type is one less fossil fuel plant.

[CalculusWarrior]

Both systems were studied at the same time, but everyone wanted breeders to make bombs more then they wanted electrical power.

That's a problem with society, people like bombs more than useful scientific advances. Sometimes I wished we lived in the kerbal universe; where everyone is completely focused on space exploration.

[Fractal_UK]

That's a problem with society, people like bombs more than useful scientific advances. Sometimes I wished we lived in the kerbal universe; where everyone is completely focused on space exploration.

Kerbals would probably invent nuclear weapons just so they could build Project Orion

[Fractal_UK]

Time to stop developing for today and get some sleep. Meanwhile, I'll leave you with these fusion reactor stats to look at - I've created a tiny 62.5cm one that is useful for making probes that produce a reasonable amount of power. They can operate for 482 days at full power without refueling or 1607 days at their minimum level, this puts them almost exactly on par with the largest fission reactor in terms of lifetime but far less long-lived than the smaller fission alternatives.

The unupgraded versions are not far distant from the gas core fission reactors in terms of overall performance (which is what I'm going for because they do appear in the same tech node) - the fusion reactors have an advantage in power output but a disadvantage in longevity. They are, however, in some ways easier to refuel.

[Arkhiah]

I need advice for installation. I extracted the GameDate folder from the Interstellar mod in to the GameData folder in the KSP directory, but while loading, it always hangs up on the first file loaded from the interstellar mod. I haven't had any issues installing any mods except this one. I'm running on Mac OSX Mavericks on a perfectly capable computer (so hold the cheeky responses telling me to get a PC).

[localSol]

Fusion almost always impresses, even if real life experiments still struggle to break even with net output...anyone heard of focus fusion? Quoting the society website at focusfusion.org: " “Focus Fusion†refers to electricity generation using a Dense Plasma Focus (DPF) nuclear fusion generator with hydrogen-boron fuel (pB11)[...] If Focus Fusion reactors are made to work, they will provide virtually unlimited supplies of cheap energy in an environmentally sound way - no greenhouse gases, and no radiation - because the reaction of pB11 is aneutronic. Focus Fusion faces two main technical challenges:

* it requires much higher ion temperatures and plasma density-confinement time product than Deuterium-Tritium fuel;

* and x-rays produced by the reaction reduce temperatures.

Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Inc. (LPP) is currently conducting experiments to demonstrate the feasibility of Focus Fusion in overcoming these challenges. LPP’s research addresses the challenges with four innovations based on well-verified, conventional physical theories: the DPF [Dense Plasma Focus] leverages, rather than fights, plasma instabilities; x-ray emissions are managed with the quantum magnetic field effect (QMFE); "

I sort of understood the general idea some months ago. Interesting anyway.

[Tommygun]

I need advice for installation. I extracted the GameDate folder from the Interstellar mod in to the GameData folder in the KSP directory, but while loading, it always hangs up on the first file loaded from the interstellar mod. I haven't had any issues installing any mods except this one. I'm running on Mac OSX Mavericks on a perfectly capable computer (so hold the cheeky responses telling me to get a PC).

Maybe it got corrupted on the download. Try deleting the whole mod and re-downloading it.

[Fractal_UK]

I need advice for installation. I extracted the GameDate folder from the Interstellar mod in to the GameData folder in the KSP directory, but while loading, it always hangs up on the first file loaded from the interstellar mod. I haven't had any issues installing any mods except this one. I'm running on Mac OSX Mavericks on a perfectly capable computer (so hold the cheeky responses telling me to get a PC).

It's supposed to unzipped into the main KSP directory. It sounds like you have a GameData\GameData set up, which is why it won't load. If you take the three folders out of the second GameData folder and put them in the main one, it will work fine.

[AlchemicalAgent]

Time to stop developing for today and get some sleep.

This is by far the best Hard Science mod I've ever seen for KSP. Combining that with the constant and rapid development also places it as the best mod overall in my book. Thanks to you and zzz for all the hard work.

As a side note, I've been using Interstellar with KMP for the past few days and haven't noticed any problems.