Apollo was essentially a technological stunt with little scientific merit. Discuss.

[Moon Goddess]

That is true. China is making impressive progress on it's own space program, but they still do it in isolation. I suppose sooner or later they will join outher countries in space exploration.

China asked to join the other nations, USA outright forbid it. They've had to go it alone, getting what help they can from Russia cuz no one else will work with them. So it's not really how you make it sound.

[Nuke]

As far as this part goes, we need only look at what space is like today:

1. The Russian Soyuz is the only available form of reliable and consistent manned space travel.

2. The "International" Space Station cannot function without the ROS (Russian Orbital Segment), more specifically the Zvezda service module.

3. Following retirement of the Space Shuttle, NASA and the US government are literally headless chickens about what to do next.

To be clear, the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs were the pinnacle of human engineering, and a lot of what we take for granted today (knowledge about our Moon, computers, fuel cells, solar power, life support systems, navigation systems, orbital mechanics, aerodynamics, etc.) benefitted immensely from these programs. To say that they were merely "technological stunts" is nothing short of ignorance to the highest degree.

That said, while the US and NASA might have won the Moon Race hands down, ultimately we (Americans) lost the Space Race.

EDIT: Corrected mistyping of the Russian Orbital Segment, or the ROS, on the ISS. My apologies.

the post apollo era was completely different from what came before. back then it was all about proving who's missiles were superior, thus demonstrating who had the superior nuclear deterrent. bombs weren't the issue we figured out by that time you could just throw on more lithum6 and make a bigger boom. so it was all about delivery systems by that point. it was political posturing, pure and simple as my rather colorful metaphor suggested. the reasons for going into space changed at that point, but not away from military application, if you couldnt outgun your adversary you could at least keep an eye on them with spy satellites. scientific research, thats good propaganda right there, especially if some of it is real. post cold war space became kind of an instrument of peace and i can see how easy it is to look on earlier accomplishments with those shades on and not realize how serious the threat of nuclear annihilation was back then. not to say that the russians didnt make some really cool stuff though.

and sorry bout the language back there, i figured if the filter didnt catch it was ok.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Nuke

[0x7be]

China asked to join the other nations, USA outright forbid it. They've had to go it alone, getting what help they can from Russia cuz no one else will work with them. So it's not really how you make it sound.

I suppose US will rethink this decision in future

[Anton P. Nym]

Apollo was essentially a technological stunt with little scientific merit.

Yeah. And? Keeping in mind that Americans spent more on lipstick than on Apollo while the program was running, it was a relatively cheap stunt to pull on a per-capita basis and it was a heckuva stunt. The technological advances resulting as side-effects are nice, though.

-- Steve

[Mr Shifty]

I suppose US will rethink this decision in future

Last year, NASA director Charles Bolden was at an international conference where bringing China into the ISS was mentioned -- talked about briefly. Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA) who is a member of the House appropriations committee in charge of NASA's funding, and who wrote the bill banning collaboration with China, blew a gasket, sending a strongly worded letter to Bolden expressing grave concerns about any hints about possible Chinese involvement. Just this year, NASA had some Chinese nationals visit a couple of its facilities, which caused another blow up from Wolf. The block to Chinese involvement in the ISS comes down to a few U.S. politicians.

In 20 years, when the ISS has been de-orbited and the Chinese are operating their own large modular space station (this will happen) and getting ready to send astronauts and scientists to their lunar base (this could happen), we in the west will be begging fruitlessly to be involved.

[Diche Bach]

I think that you hold rather idealistic view on China. They have a lot of internal social and economic problems.

Nevertheless, I wish them best luck with their space program.

Exactly. I predict that within the next 15 years, either China will be "winning" or China will be ravaged by a civil war. It all depends on how well the Aristocrats who rule that country manage to strike a balance between reform and stability.

[Mr. Scruffy]

Haha - what if the chinese go to the moon, rip out the american flag, gesticulrily wipe their behinds with it and plant their own, instead? Would that make the US go there, again?

Gosh - imagine, live-TV footage of taikonauts picking up the US flag from the Apollo 11 site and taking it home as trophy...

then going on about how who doesnt put it in value doesnt deserve to own it and all that BS by which the west still... well going OT...

Anyways: Best case scenario?

Edited August 1, 2013 by Mr. Scruffy

[Gus]

rip out the american flag

I'm replying here just in case you'd like to know that Apollo 11's flag was knocked down by the blast at liftoff. The other flags were planted further away from the landers and remain standing. There is recent photographic evidence confirming this.

Source

Edited August 1, 2013 by Gus

[Mr Shifty]

I'm replying here just in case you'd like to know that Apollo 11's flag was knocked down by the blast at liftoff. The other flags were planted further away from the landers and remain standing. There is recent photographic evidence confirming this.

Source

Those are some great images of the Apollo sites! I hadn't seen those before.

[King Arthur]

China asked to join the other nations, USA outright forbid it. They've had to go it alone, getting what help they can from Russia cuz no one else will work with them. So it's not really how you make it sound.

It's justified, to be perfectly honest. Unlike US-Russian cooperation in space that ultimately resulted in benefits and technological advances for both (the ISS, no matter how dependent it may be on the ROS, is ultimately a symbol of this), China will only bring to the table their awesome skills of stealing others' technologies and calling them their own, the US does not want anything to do with China specifically because of this legitimate concern.

Simply put, the US has nothing to gain from "cooperating" with China. Everything the Chinese do have, we can learn in more detail from the Russians; China meanwhile is salivating at the chance to look at US aerospace technologies and steal them wholesale.

[Vaebn]

Perhaps technological feat would be more generous.

Yes, but. It was cool.

That buck rogers feeling and everything it implied about the brave new future, inspired tons of scientists and engineers who went into other fields and did all sorts of things.

For someone to judge the scientific merit of Apollo then, he would have to somehow be able to judge that indirect benefit.

[Mr. Scruffy]

I'm replying here just in case you'd like to know that Apollo 11's flag was knocked down by the blast at liftoff. The other flags were planted further away from the landers and remain standing. There is recent photographic evidence confirming this.

Source

Duh! - that´s what´s taking the chinese so long - to find where the one true blasted-off-on-relaunch flag is located on the moon, exactly. They´ll retrieve it, wave it to the cam, going ´oh someone lost something? is that yours? yeah? ;P´...

Seriously: No, i didnt know that, thx for the info.

[Specialist290]

Duh! - that´s what´s taking the chinese so long - to find where the one true blasted-off-on-relaunch flag is located on the moon, exactly. They´ll retrieve it, wave it to the cam, going ´oh someone lost something? is that yours? yeah? ;P´...

Seriously: No, i didnt know that, thx for the info.

The location of the Apollo flag is a matter of public record. If the reason it's taking them so long is "They can't find it," then that reflects rather... poorly on their abilities.

[jwenting]

That is true. China is making impressive progress on it's own space program, but they still do it in isolation. I suppose sooner or later they will join outher countries in space exploration.

China bought an off the shelf space program from Russia and swaps out those parts they can't mass produce themselves or for home grown components as they go along.

They didn't start from scratch.

Of course neither did the Americans or the Soviets, both building on German rocketry experience from the 1930s and '40s, culminating in the A4 (V2) and design work for the A9/A10.

But that's far less than starting with a fully functional rocket and capsule known to be capable of reaching orbit.

[Levelord]

It's justified, to be perfectly honest. Unlike US-Russian cooperation in space that ultimately resulted in benefits and technological advances for both (the ISS, no matter how dependent it may be on the ROS, is ultimately a symbol of this), China will only bring to the table their awesome skills of stealing others' technologies and calling them their own, the US does not want anything to do with China specifically because of this legitimate concern.

Simply put, the US has nothing to gain from "cooperating" with China. Everything the Chinese do have, we can learn in more detail from the Russians; China meanwhile is salivating at the chance to look at US aerospace technologies and steal them wholesale.

Riiing Riiing..... China called. They want their paper, gunpowder, compasses and rockets (yes rockets since 1241CE) back.

Regardless, the fact that China can actually catch up in their space program while being forcefully isolated (therefore they can't 'steal' that many ideas and have to legitimately learn for themselves), speaks volumes on their technical ingenuity. Compare this to the USA and Russia during the end of the second world war, where they had to scramble to catch German Nazi rocket scientists like Pokemon in order to get their own rocket programs running. Rocket technology isn't something the Americans and Russians invented, they only got a head start because of the spoils of war, that came in the form of captured scientists.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Levelord

[Kerbface]

Riiing Riiing..... China called. They want their paper, gunpowder, compasses and rockets (yes rockets since 1241CE) back.

I don't think the inventions of ancient China can be used as an accurate representation of the modern Chinese government and Space Agency's practices. That's like saying your sports team is going to win the championship because they once won four championships in a row even though all of the people in the team who won those championships have been replaced since.

[Levelord]

I don't think the inventions of ancient China can be used as an accurate representation of the modern Chinese government and Space Agency's practices. That's like saying your sports team is going to win the championship because they once won four championships in a row even though all of the people in the team who won those championships have been replaced since.

The same can be said for America's space innovations of the 60's, while obsolete, are still guarded from being shared with the Chinese. The embargo in trading the knowledge of space travel to China is purely politically motivated.

I'm just here to say that space exploration is beneficial for humankind regardless of who does it. It's petty and selfish to hold back others from achieving it, especially when America is scaling back it's space program and canceled it's space shuttles.