Is MechJeb cheating?

[hoojiwana]

No one has yet to refute my original point - in a single-player game, the player is the sole arbiter of his or her enjoyment, and thus cannot possibly cheat against himself or herself. Are you having fun? If yes, then what does it matter what others think?

A persons enjoyment of the game is indeed solely defined by that persons experience, you are quite right there. However, a person can have a diminished sense of enjoyment, a diminished sense of accomplishment from using MechJeb. They certainly can still be enjoying themselves, no one is saying they cannot. But considering a popular reason for starting to use the plugin is to get out of a frustrating rut of being unable to complete some self-set goal, but yet the player themselves hasn't done much to get over that hump in difficulty, the sense of accomplishment can be eroded, leaving a player wondering why the game might feel different.

I say all that speaking from experience since MechJeb did my first manned Munar landings as I was unable to figure out how to cancel horizontal velocity, meaning everything just crashed and burned. After having MechJeb do that for me a few times, the game just wasn't fun for me. I wasn't playing it, I was watching MechJeb fly everything for me. I had cheated myself out of the huge feeling of pulling off a proper landing on another celestial body, and I can never experience it.

[Clamps]

i can't make anyone happy with my posts

Edited August 4, 2013 by Clamps

[42undead2]

If you tell other people how to play their game, you suck. As have been explained.

[KhaosCorp]

Mechjeb is also a poor learning aid for several reasons, the greatest example being that it doesn't actually teach you anything. You might copy it when it does say, a gravity turn. But you don't know what you're doing or why you're doing it. You're just copying what mechjeb did.

I guess if your just copying what MechJeb does its a bad teacher....

If you have half a brain and actually put some thought into it MJ is a great learning tool. Guess it comes down to how you use it.

And my first line of original post does make sense, let me elaborate:

True, NASA does not go download a program and hit go. They also don't put their rockets together by snapping pre-made parts together like Kerbals do genius.

KSP is a SIMULATION..as such some things are handwaved for the sake of gameplay. So, MechJeb is JUST LIKE the nasa flight assistance computers are AFTER they have been loaded with data from mission control.

Honestly, not many would enjoy building a rocket and then doing several months of programing and configuring before launch (like nasa does) in order to get their flight info.

MechJeb just handwaves all the computer work, simultations, and calculations...SINCE THESE ARE ALL DONT ON EARTH BY MEN USING COMPUTERS!

[Alguien]

No one has yet to refute my original point - in a single-player game, the player is the sole arbiter of his or her enjoyment, and thus cannot possibly cheat against himself or herself. Are you having fun? If yes, then what does it matter what others think?.

No one has yet to refute your point because there is no point

Having fun and cheating doesn't cancel each other

If i spam E=mc2 Trooper in Age of Empires 1 and i have fun, does that mean i am not cheating? No, i AM cheating, it doesn't matter if i am having fun, i am achiving something by dishonest means

By using mechjeb to reach the mun instead of doing yourself, sure you still can have fun, but thats getting an achivement you really didn't do it, you are indeed cheating yourself

Then you have people who came to show "they" achivements, the argument of "is single player!" falls appart here, since at that point "him/herself" isn't the sole arbiter

And what really gets me, is how your guys trying to justify or even deny it, if it really doesn't matter because you are your sole arbiter to you enjoyment, then why trying to justify it? Why not say than you indeed use cheats?

This subject could as well be about ice cream. ''1F U D0NT L1K VANILA U SUK!'' It's the same thing really.

Infinite fuel is not cheating, Isn't that the same argument?

[Zerro]

No need to spite each other. I prefer good quality discussions with rational opinions than just bashing and name calling.

First NASA: NASA is real life, real situations, real lives, millions of dollars, no DO OVERs or Quickloads. I would rather trust the highly sophisticated autopilot systems developed by NASA than my own gut feeling.

Back to KSP: KSP is a simulation game. We are simulating what it's like to build rockets and perform space missions. That simulation also involves all the maneuvers of getting into space and so on. If we cut that out with auto-pilot then we are only getting like 10% gameplay from just designing. But are there times when it's a good idea to use autopilot assistance from mods (not just MJ)? I'm trying to get a module into space manually and it continues to fail when I make my turn. Then I do a practice run with MJ and MJ gets the module into space flawlessly.

Could autopilot be used as a teaching tool to teach the player how to maneuver better or is more of a handicap that'll eventually spoil us?

Edited August 4, 2013 by Zerro

[dave4002000]

People like you who just resort to attacks on the other side are the reason the threads get locked, actually.

If you took that as an attack, then you are misguided. That is only a legitimate observation based on previous history..nothing more, nothing less. I couldn't care less if someone uses, or doesn't use, MJ and I have no reason to reduce myself to such 'attacks'.

[whatisthisidonteven]

I guess if your just copying what MechJeb does its a bad teacher....

If you have half a brain and actually put some thought into it MJ is a great learning tool. Guess it comes down to how you use it.

And my first line of original post does make sense, let me elaborate:

True, NASA does not go download a program and hit go. They also don't put their rockets together by snapping pre-made parts together like Kerbals do genius.

KSP is a SIMULATION..as such some things are handwaved for the sake of gameplay. So, MechJeb is JUST LIKE the nasa flight assistance computers are AFTER they have been loaded with data from mission control.

Honestly, not many would enjoy building a rocket and then doing several months of programing and configuring before launch (like nasa does) in order to get their flight info.

MechJeb just handwaves all the computer work, simultations, and calculations...SINCE THESE ARE ALL DONT ON EARTH BY MEN USING COMPUTERS!

You would do well to read the whole thread before you join in a conversation, as the points you just made have all been covered multiple times.

Not to mention that real space agencies are dealing with rockets worth millions of real dollars, real human lives, precious cargo, sometimes years of planning and their funding (Disasters means bad PR which means less funding and popularity). It is incredibly important for them that nothing goes wrong. But KSP? Not so much, you can just revert your flight and it'll be like nothing ever happened and there is no negative effects to failing a mission anyway.

And again, read this post by Maxmaps which does a good job of explaining it, he's better at putting it into words than I am.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/44007-OMG-we-re-not-worthy!?p=563416#post563416

[Draft]

As far as using Mechjeb for a learning tool goes, I think video tutorials are better. Using mechjeb you can get a better perspective on how the game is responding, but it lacks the informative explanations of good tuts

[PDCWolf]

No need to spite each other

First NASA: NASA is real life, real situations, real lives, millions of dollars, no DO OVERs or Quickloads. I would rather trust the highly sophisticated autopilot systems developed by NASA than my own gut feeling.

Back to KSP: KSP is a simulation game. We are simulating what it's like to build rockets and perform space missions. That simulation also involves all the maneuvers of getting into space and so on. If we cut that out with auto-pilot then we are only getting like 10% gameplay from just designing. But are there times when it's a good idea to use autopilot assistance from mods (not just MJ)? I'm trying to get a module into space manually and it continues to fail when I make my turn. Then I do a practice run with MJ and MJ gets the module into space flawlessly.

Could autopilot be used as a teaching tool to teach the player how to maneuver better or is more of a handicap that'll eventually spoil us?

Since you make this useless and wrong comparison, let me tell you something:

You want the nasa experience on KSP? program one "mechjeb" per mission, from the includes to the final function, and it has to be specific for that mission, unless you make the exact same mission with the exact same parameters 2 times.

You want a good experience of simulation in KSP? Well, since we don't have tidal forces, gravity bumps, gradient-torque, lagrange points, stationkeeping, geocentric forces and we have infinite money and astronauts -for now- then fly your rockets yourself, since is the only part that remains.

You keep failing in delivering something to orbit? ask yourself why and how to get better instead of watching a computer doing.

Stop comparing mechjeb with NASA. That and boasting "achievements" while using mechjeb are all the reason for the hate.

Edited August 4, 2013 by PDCWolf

[Techavon]

How is this even a question?

Yes, mechjeb is cheating. However, as has been stated, it's a single player game. When you cheat in KSP, you aren't treading on another persons enjoyment of the game. If you are still having fun, then by all means, go ahead. No one minds if, for instance, you turn on infinite fuel to play around with your rocket.

Where the problem arises, is when people insist that MechJeb doesn't take away somewhat from an achievement. If a particularly impressive landing is accomplished through the use of MechJeb, and the exact same landing is accomplished by another person without it, it's absurd not to recognize that the first person had a significant advantage not available in the stock game. Under those circumstances, it's obvious that the first person could be considered to have used a cheat. This doesn't detract from that persons enjoyment of the game, but it is perfectly within the second persons rights to point out that the achievement is less impressive than his own.

[hoojiwana]

As far as using Mechjeb for a learning tool goes, I think video tutorials are better. Using mechjeb you can get a better perspective on how the game is responding, but it lacks the informative explanations of good tuts

Indeed, MechJeb doesn't tell you why it does what it does, that's left entirely up to the player to infer themselves.

Hopefully the game will feature better tutorials to ease players into the game so less people go looking to plugins like MechJeb when they hit a brickwall of frustration trying to do something new to them. With the new developer focus on career, those tutorials and lower learning curve will likely come as a part of that.

[Clamps]

I don't think it's fair for someone that made it somewhere using an autopilot to demand the same respect as someone who made it there manually, actually playing the game themselves instead of watching it. The two experiences are nothing alike.

[KhaosCorp]

You would do well to read the whole thread before you join in a conversation, as the points you just made have all been covered multiple times.

I am reading it, i happen to type slow...get over yourself and deal with it. As stated previous in this thread by YOU its a public conversation and I will post what I have to say..

Also....

assistance and cheating are NOT the same word yall...go look em both up.

[Clamps]

I am reading it, i happen to type slow...get over yourself and deal with it. As stated previous in this thread by YOU its a public conversation and I will post what I have to say..

Also....

assistance and cheating are NOT the same word yall...go look em both up.

So if I got "assistance" on my SATs that answered every question for me as long as I showed up to take the test, and I scored better than everyone else resulting in a full ride scholarship to Harvard, that wouldn't be cheating? Different words can have the same meaning. It's all about the context.

[KhaosCorp]

So if I got "assistance" on my SATs that answered every question for me as long as I showed up to take the test, and I scored better than everyone else resulting in a full ride scholarship to Harvard, that wouldn't be cheating? Different words can have the same meaning. It's all about the context.

What a horrible and pointless example.....(not to mention having test answers done for you is not assistance, its cheating, there is no context, thats how it is)flying a rocket and taking the SAT's are absolutly nothing alike lol.

And it seems to me MOST of you saying MJ is cheating is assuming that everyone that uses MJ does everything on autopilot. I assure you this is not the case. I use MJ2 alot, never use auto anything.

I would 100% agree that everyone is free to have their own (and in most cases express) their own views and opinions. But when those opinions are based on mostly inaccurate assumptions....well, thats just counterproductive, even to a debate lol.

Following your line of logic sir we should all stop praising NASA and other space agencys for their accomplishments, since they ALL used flight assistance systems...

Edited August 4, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[whatisthisidonteven]

I am reading it, i happen to type slow...get over yourself and deal with it. As stated previous in this thread by YOU its a public conversation and I will post what I have to say..

Also....

assistance and cheating are NOT the same word yall...go look em both up.

You could have read the thread before you made your post, as your points were addressed on the very first page.

I would hardly call flying for you just assistance, by the way. That's like saying a wheelchair assists you in walking - It doesn't, it does the walking for you.

Following your line of logic sir we should all stop praising NASA and other space agencys for their accomplishments, since they ALL used flight assistance systems...

Again, this point was addressed on the very first page. Please read the thread before you post.

[PDCWolf]

What a horrible and pointless example.....(not to mention having test answers done for you is not assistance, its cheating)

"What a horrible and pointless example.....(not to mention having your rockets fly themselves is not assistance, its cheating)"

heh.

And it seems to me MOST of you saying MJ is cheating is assuming that everyone that uses MJ does everything on autopilot. I assure you this is not the case. I use MJ2 alot, never use auto anything.

The OP specifically mentions the autopilot features. The missing context comes from your incapacity or negligence to read the thread.

I would 100% agree that everyone is free to have their own (and in most cases express) their own views and opinions. But when those opinions are based on mostly inaccurate assumptions....well, thats just counterproductive, even to a debate lol.

Debates are based on seeing the objective point of something. If we debated opinions we all would end throwing turds at each other. All the things that have been argued are totally objective and thus cannot be denied (mechjeb is nothing like nasa, mechjeb-helped achievements are not a 100% achievements, the definitions of assistance and cheating in the context of the thread).

Following your line of logic sir we should all stop praising NASA and other space agencys for their accomplishments, since they ALL used flight assistance systems...

Please refer to my previous post on this thread (the one you supposedly already read, accordingto your own previous post) for a clarification on this matter.

[Techavon]

Following your line of logic sir we should all stop praising NASA and other space agencys for their accomplishments, since they ALL used flight assistance systems...

Are you seriously back to this? In spite of the "NASA uses mechjeb" argument being thoroughly addressed already, I'll make another point.

Consider this real life scenario:

During the Apollo 11 Moon landing, Armstrong took direct control of the lander, because it was landing them in an undesirable spot. He manually landed the craft.

Had he NOT done that, and had the computer landed the craft, landing on the Moon would've still been an enormous accomplishment. However, in light of the fact that the last moments were done manually, the achievement is significantly more impressive.

Similarly, if a person builds a rocket and uses mechjeb to launch and land it on the Mun for them, they may feel a sense of accomplishment.

However, the person who built and landed a craft 100% manually, is in no way obliged to accept the first persons accomplishment as impressive.

Furthermore, this is a videogame, not a real life space program with billions of dollars being poured into developing computers that can pilot the most complex machines ever built. It is a game, and in games, your achievements are measured by your personal effort and skill. Using an addon to perform a significant portion of the game for you constitutes a cheat.

Again, as it's a single player game there is nothing inherently wrong with cheating. It doesn't detract from the enjoyment of others if you cheat. Just don't expect everyone else to assign legitimacy to your achievements when you do cheat.

[decman117]

Following your line of logic sir we should all stop praising NASA and other space agencys for their accomplishments, since they ALL used flight assistance systems...

That is just ignoring everything said about NASA so far. NASA can't afford to not use autopilots. If they didn't and something went wrong, humans die.

Playing KSP, on the other hand, is risk free. You aren't killing a living thing, you aren't risking your future and you don't have a budget yet.

If NASA decided to not bother with planning and just winged it, their reputation would be ruined. They'd lose funding and public support because they were careless. In KSP, you build, plan and fly the mission. If anything goes wrong, you restart and learn from your mistakes.

Naturally, this means that people who flew their mission manually have done something more impressive than people who activated the autopilot and watched the mission fly itself.

Your only concern is having fun.

NASA have real world physics, engineering problems and actually constructing the rocket to worry about.

NASA have done so much more to put a man on the moon than you have to put a Kerbal on the mun. It's disrespectful to everyone that died in a test flight or actual mission to suggest that NASA taking precautions to keep people alive is anything like you watching the game fly the rocket.

TLDR; NASA have so much more to do than you, so the comparison should not be made. People manually getting to the mun is more impressive than mechjeb getting to the mun.

[KhaosCorp]

Yet more assumptions....this is moot point...all you people screaming 'cheater' do is make assumptions as to HOW people use MechJeb...so have fun being wrong =)

Opinions are ok...assumptions you try and pass as fact...not ok....

[Devo]

Greetings,

This has probably been discussed elsewhere so just point me in the right direction if it has.

If I pointed you in all the directions this has been discussed, I would probably be old and grey before I was finished.

See the big Search box in the top right hand corner of the screen and the magnifying glass? well, call me crazy, if you were to type "mechjeb cheat" in that box and press the icon, you might have some luck!

And for the record, you can't cheat in a game that has no beginning and no end, and is in development.

What do we actually do in KSP? we invent our own space programs and missions, not the game. There is no game right now - so how can you cheat on something that does not even exist?

Edited August 5, 2013 by Devo

[Techavon]

Yet more assumptions....this is moot point...all you people screaming 'cheater' do is make assumptions as to HOW people use MechJeb...so have fun being wrong =)

Opinions are ok...assumptions you try and pass as fact...not ok....

Enlighten us.

How exactly do people use MJ?

[hoojiwana]

Yet more assumptions....this is moot point...all you people screaming 'cheater' do is make assumptions as to HOW people use MechJeb...so have fun being wrong =)

Opinions are ok...assumptions you try and pass as fact...not ok....

The assumption that people are using a mod advertised as an autopilot, that consists primarily of autopilot modules, as an autopilot is pretty logical. If you want to have extra information, you could use Kerbal Engineer or VOID. If you want the aerobraking calculator, you can use an external tool to do so.

Or you can play the game and get a feel for what sort of builds will go how far, or what altitudes are good for aerobraking. It is a game afterall, and has quicksave and quickload at your disposal.

[N3X15]

Just to bring this topic back onto its rails, I beleive the problem being brought up by the anti-mechjeb users is that users using MechJeb still receive the same level of respect given to members who do not, and the question being posed is whether this is unjust.