Why "Revert Flight" is not a good option for KSP

[Tophir]

Maybe a hard, medium and easy mode? In hard mode there is no revert flight button, in medium you can only revert after 10 minutes and in easy you can revert at any time.

[jwenting]

It seems the revert feature is mainly for launch when things are more likely to go wrong.

correct. And where things go wrong for weird reasons you can't anticipate easily during construction. I've had engines fall off for no reason, rockets get stuck inside the launch pad, incapable of lifting off even though it has a TWR well over 1.0, random deconstruction as links between stages just let go during the initial burn, etc. etc.

[keekee484]

The only problem I have with the revert flight button is that is has a revert VAB button. How am I supposed to kill ANYBODY? Every time a launch fails, I want the option to return to the VAB but not to revert.

And while we're talking about ways to end flights, I'd really enjoy a direct 'recover' from the pause menu.(if you were on kerbin, of course) Might be selfish because my ksp enjoys crashing, but I feel that it would save a lot of time.

[JSD]

The only problem I have with the revert flight button is that is has a revert VAB button. How am I supposed to kill ANYBODY? Every time a launch fails, I want the option to return to the VAB but not to revert.

Your not killing any Kerbal in that process. Revert (to launch or VAB) is taking back time, like the flight never happened in the first place. Basically it's recovering, but without the data being saved. The only way you can kill Kerbals (by canceling) is if you cancel a flight in the Tracking Station.

Edited August 6, 2013 by JSD

[PrivateFlip]

Many neat things came with 0.21, but as I thought about the revert mechanic I found it to be restrictive in terms of gameplay.

What happens when you revert flight? Everything you did gets rolled back, deleted like it never happened and you get another go at it. Why is this a problem?

This game will play with a budget when it's finished...

Having a budget could be a good reason why a revert should be there depending how economy is implemented. Some things to take into consideration:

The budget should be in someway limiting to have any meaning but it should also be big enough to give room for failure. If revert is not an option it will be very hard to get a figure which meets both criteria. If every time hoisting a rocket onto the launchpad to collapse before launch or break apart somewhere during ascent is irreversibly deducted from the budget then your budget needs to multiplied by the amount of failures per success.

-experienced players will soon be swimming in cash because getting a satellite into orbit takes us no more than three tries unlike the newbie on whom the budget is calibrated.

-some powergamers will be switching to sandbox to test their missiles there to save money and the bring them into their career, reducing immersion and have them swim in money as well.

-players will soon add a hundred struts standard to each rocket, because losing one can't be undone

-altering/optimizing rockets or changing designs is discouraged. If you have a lifter that works the gain of getting a better more efficient one is offset by the cost (three or four failures) to get that design in working order.

The last two points are realistic in the sense that real world rocket design works but it would also diminish the experimental aspect at least in career mode. I'm not opposed to have revert done away in career, there is just a lot to consider. It'll for one depend on how the budget is implemented, yearly payments, goal based payments or some combination of both. (Also important is that little question what career mode is supposed to be about.)

[ash73]

For me the distasteful part of reversion is that it means the flight never happened time-wise. 99 test 10-minute test flights followed by one 10-minute real flight takes a grand total of 10 minutes of game time instead of 1000.

Agree with this, especially if you time warp while sitting on the pad at the start of the flight to advance to daylight or maybe align the planets, if your craft crashes and you revert you then have to do it again each time.

[Mr. Scruffy]

The revert flight option, in career-mode, would just save you the clicks to save and load the game prior to launch and after failure. It´s just neat, that the game takes care of that automatically.

That being said, with the loading times of KSP, it might make sense to give hardcore career players an ´ironman´-mode, restricting save/load options and the revert-function with it, in one way or the other.

[Mr. Scruffy]

Agree with this, especially if you time warp while sitting on the pad at the start of the flight to advance to daylight or maybe align the planets, if your craft crashes and you revert you then have to do it again each time.

And you cannot figure out a way around this? You know, like warping the time, or at least the major portion of it, in another craft, then switch to the VAB and get going?

Dont get me wrong: I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes, i wait for a launch window for a flight and occupy myself with something else, meanwhile. Only, when i keep screwing up and reverting on that other occupation, i can wait forever for the launch window for the first craft... but i´d rather humbly put that down to me not playing the game ´right´ than as a design-flaw, because the more i think about it, the more sense it makes to me, the way it is currently implemented. Esp. for career-mode as PrivateFlip nicely demonstrated in post#30.

[ash73]

And you cannot figure out a way around this? You know, like warping the time, or at least the major portion of it, in another craft, then switch to the VAB and get going?

Dont get me wrong: I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes, i wait for a launch window for a flight and occupy myself with something else, meanwhile. Only, when i keep screwing up and reverting on that other occupation, i can wait forever for the launch window for the first craft... but i´d rather humbly put that down to me not playing the game ´right´ than as a design-flaw, because the more i think about it, the more sense it makes to me, the way it is currently implemented. Esp. for career-mode as PrivateFlip nicely demonstrated in post#30.

Your workaround is ok, but the design flaw is that you can't go back to the VAB from the craft sitting on the pad, without reverting. I think you should be able to time accelerate and then recover the craft.

[Mr. Scruffy]

you can - go to the ´whats-itcalledagain?´ where you pick which of the current missions to fly, select the craft and hit the recover button. The only thing they missed really, is to add a recover button to the esc-menu while the craft is landed on kerbin.

[ash73]

you can - go to the ´whats-itcalledagain?´ where you pick which of the current missions to fly, select the craft and hit the recover button.

No you can't, the space centre button is "yellowed" and it reverts to the savegame before you put the craft on the pad. The only way to do it is to select map view, then switch to another craft (if there is one), then go to the space centre, then to the tracking station, then recover the craft from the pad, and finally go back to the VAB. If that's not a design flaw I dunno what is.

[Mr. Scruffy]

yeah, the recover-button should be avaiable on the ESC-menu during flight when landed on Kerbin and standing still, as said - but that´s really it. Nothing wrong with the ´revert-flight´ mechanics per se. Another thing that could help this problem is to allow time-warp when not controlling any ship at all, e.g. from the space center and the tracking station.

[CaptainBlue]

Not having revert flight option even in easiest difficulty mode in Career Mode is quite possible.

For example, besides getting funding from achivements of goals, one also gets funding weekly, monthly, quarterly, and etc. And only get your funding cut from things like "crashing ship into large city with large bits spread out everywhere" or continuous failures.

Even if you don't have a continuous funding flowing in every set increments time passed, one can also implement "kerb$ per point of explosiveness and how visible it exploded from a nearby tourist/audience and/or city" to recoup your funds.

[Morty_jhones]

I love the Revert Key its great. and lets face it it SHOULD be in the career mode as well. after all how elce are you gonna SIMULATE a launch ? ? they gonna add ANOTHER launch facility ? ? mission simulator !!!, play the game WITHIN the game!!!! yea that really makes sense, though them doing so would be funny and weirdly cool. After all space agencies around the world simulate launches and 1st flights Before they even begin construction.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Not having revert flight option even in easiest difficulty mode in Career Mode is quite possible.

For example, besides getting funding from achivements of goals, one also gets funding weekly, monthly, quarterly, and etc. And only get your funding cut from things like "crashing ship into large city with large bits spread out everywhere" or continuous failures.

Even if you don't have a continuous funding flowing in every set increments time passed, one can also implement "kerb$ per point of explosiveness and how visible it exploded from a nearby tourist/audience and/or city" to recoup your funds.

But like we already said, the thing is quite limited. You can't pull off a docking maneuver or any mission long enough to warrant splitting it into two sections. You're going to be getting use out of the reverted flights for maybe the first few years when you don't have missions more complicated than "go to orbit" or at most "go to the Mun", but you're not going to be reverting a compound flight to Duna. In other words, it's perfect for testing and letting new players learn the ropes of things without hard consequences.

Also, a mission simulator is quite easy to do. It's plainly a mission that doesn't count, and disappears without a trace as soon as it's ended one way or another. Essentially the game makes an autosave before you begin the mission, and a separate quicksave for the mission itself. The mission will always load from the quicksave, and any regular play will load from the autosave instead.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Sean Mirrsen

[VerdammteSeele]

I recall there is a feature that turns certain features on or off and changes certain feature variables that was proposed for this feature called "Career Mode". And I remember it was called:"Difficulty Setting." was it? I might have gotten this wrong someone please correct me!!!

Sarcasm aside, I guess they will probably have a difficulty option when you start a save game for career mode. Hopefully. (Quite obvious they will, but it is more work to balance it out.)

This exactly. I see many suggestions written off because they'd make the game "easy mode". Well, then leave those features for easy mode only! Or, guess what, you could just not use them! *sigh*

[vexx32]

I do remember Nova saying he'd rather not have stuff like "Easy" or "Hard" mode settings. In a similar fashion to Microsoft Flight Simulator's Realism panel, with a whole bunch of stuff you can tweak to make the simulation more brutal or easy-going, KSP's Career mode should (I think) work in a similar way.

[Skorpion]

I completely disagree that the rewind feature is too forgiving. In fact, I don't think it's forgiving enough.

[No_Man]

Are you saying you would have it that I can no longer deorbit my station for the heck of it? I can't have that.

[Skorpion]

I'm saying you should not only be able to deorbit your space station for the heck of it, but you should be able to rewind once you're done screwing around.

Actually, we can already do this with quicksaves, but the new rewind feature has the potential to be much a more natural interface, if only it was less limited.

I don't get why people are complaining about the rewind feature when we've had quicksaves for ages.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Compared to "End Flight", the Revert feature is quite forgiving. And it's the natural choice for Career Mode - that way anything you've done with the flight you revert, never happened, and the world goes on in blissful ignorance of the stunts you pulled off.

[Tripzter]

I'm pretty sure eventually in the career mode that they plan on adding the revert flight button will be removed. Currently we only have the sand box mode in which i'd say your imagination is the limit.

[No_Man]

I'm saying you should not only be able to deorbit your space station for the heck of it, but you should be able to rewind once you're done screwing around.

Actually, we can already do this with quicksaves, but the new rewind feature has the potential to be much a more natural interface, if only it was less limited.

I don't get why people are complaining about the rewind feature when we've had quicksaves for ages.

I was actually commenting on the topic post, and didn't realize this discussion had five pages. I agree with your idea.

[jcraft]

I'm pretty sure eventually in the career mode that they plan on adding the revert flight button will be removed.

Revert flight function was implemented especially with career mode in mind, so no - they not going to remove it in career mode as it was designed for career mode.

Besides "Revert flight" its just a fancy name for "load autosave that was made on lauchpad/in editor" its not some button that magically rollbacks just that flight from universe, it rollbacks whole universe just like quickload option. You just loading a save, that's it.

Edited August 8, 2013 by jcraft

[boomerdog2000]

If for any reason they did get rid of the revert feature for career mode they would have to add some sort of simulation mechanic for actual testing or dozens of kerbals would die on the launchpad. While this might help with the realism of the game I fell it would hurt the feeling of the game. Half of the fun of launching most of these insane contraptions that most likely violate laws of physics just by existing, is trying to fix the problems until you actually manage to make them work.